2009.07.13 19:00 - Second "Knowledge" Theme Session

The Guardian for this meeting was Threedee Shepherd. The comments are by Threedee Shepherd.

Eos Amaterasu: Hi Adelene
Adelene Dawner: Hiya :)
Adelene Dawner: Looks like Three's running a bit late - he was dealing with some RL chores.
Adelene Dawner: Hiya Sophia, Pema. ^.^
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Sophia, Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Eos, Sophia, Threedee, Adelene!
Eos Amaterasu: Hi ThreeD
Adelene Dawner: Hiya, Three-Luv. Unpacking go okay?
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Ade, Pema, Eos, and now Threedee :)
Threedee Shepherd: hi folks, Yup unpaloaded ok
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Pema Pera: did you move in SL or RL, Threedee?
Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
Threedee Shepherd: In RL. I had to move the boxes that were the "remnents" of my academic office. I still hae too many books to move and no place yet to put them ;D
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sophia, Three, Ade, Eos :)
Pema Pera: Much harder to store things in RL than SL --- without an inventory :-)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi ELi
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Threedee Shepherd: If knowledge is one and everywhere, why do I still have all these books :D
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Paradise :))
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Paradise
Paradise Tennant: hiya eliza sophia pema eos .. adelene threedee :))
Eos Amaterasu: HI Para1
Pema Pera: Hi Paradise!
Pema Pera: why are you yourself not one and everywhere, then, Threedee? (^_^)
Pema Pera: (or perhaps you alreay are . . . )
Adelene Dawner giggles ^.^

Theme starts at this point

Pema Pera: I guess this is the start of our theme meeting, Three?
Threedee Shepherd: sounds like it
Pema Pera: Do you have any question, suggestion, comment, about the kind of "Knowledge" and "Cognition" that we've been talking about before?
Eos Amaterasu: Wherever you know, there you are?
Threedee Shepherd: I have a thought that is a bit metaphorical, as follows
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Bertrum
Threedee Shepherd: Is the knowledge that is everywhere "holographic" in the sense that every region contains some of all of the image?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bert :)
Pema Pera: Hi Bert!
Paradise Tennant: hiya bert :))
Bertrum Quan: Hi everyone.
Paradise Tennant: are we talking about totality :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Bert
Pema Pera: I think the idea of holography can be used in some very broad way as a loose metaphor, but I wouldn't push that too far
SophiaSharon Larnia: that would imply that knowledge is part of what the image is made of
Pema Pera: actual holographic images, and machinery for making images are still very much localized, unlike the kind of knowledge we have been talking about
Threedee Shepherd: that depends on how hard we push the metaphor
Pema Pera: yes, Paradise, but about the cognitive "dimension" of all that is
Threedee Shepherd: If knowledge is all and everywhere and I am a part of it all at once--what's left?
Pema Pera: more than that, Sophia, knowledge being what allow any cognition in the first place
Pema Pera: using ordinary logic, Three, yes, that doesn't make sense at all
--BELL--
Threedee Shepherd: I think "unordinary logic" is a contradiction in terms, perhaps?
Threedee Shepherd: beats me, may have 25 square feet uncovered
stevenaia Michinaga: Hello
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Stevenaia
Pema Pera: talking about metaphores: if you use the logic of classica mechanics, clockwork physics, to try to understand the world as given by quantum mechanics,then no question that you ask has any possible answer within that logic framework. Seen from classical mechanics (cm) quantum mechanics (qm) is all paradox, weird, strange -- but from within qm logic, qm is just what it is, no problem.
Pema Pera: hi Steve!
Adelene Dawner: Wrong window, Luv.
Threedee Shepherd: oops wrong window, I was answering an IM question, sorry
Pema Pera: *classical mechanics
Paradise Tennant: hmm very difficult to reduce the enormity of the concept even as our limited sensory systems perceive it to abstract words and symbols
Eliza Madrigal: HI Steven
Pema Pera: yes, Paradise, it is definitely beyond words and concepts
Eliza Madrigal: (sorry brb stuck)
Paradise Tennant: hiya steve
Threedee Shepherd: If I agree it is beyond words and concepts, what can we hope or expect to accomplish in this discussion?
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Paradise Tennant: lol
stevenaia Michinaga: Signal at beach stronger tthan usual tonight
Pema Pera: the way qm was discovered was by experiment -- similarly, the way to get a taste of how a kind of "knowledge" may be basic to the very fabric of the world can only be discovered by experience -- though words can help to point out what it is NOT, thereby speeding up the exploration
Paradise Tennant: well some times knowing what you don't know is the best first step :)
Threedee Shepherd: without words and concepts, how will you know when you do know?
Paradise Tennant: :)))
Paradise Tennant: we did not always have words or concepts
Pema Pera: you know when you reall see something . . . it's that simple
Pema Pera: seeing is enough
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Pema Pera: in math, in really seeing somebody you are with, etc
Pema Pera: words are not the rockbottom touchstone of reality
Pema Pera: much as we like to pretend
Pema Pera: sometimes :)
Paradise Tennant: there is recognition
Eos Amaterasu: rockbottom touchstone : very tactile
Paradise Tennant: perhaps
Threedee Shepherd: I agree words are not necessary. Are thoughts concepts?
Paradise Tennant: hmm more like static :)
Pema Pera: many of them are, I think . . . the English vocabulary is not very precise . . .
Eos Amaterasu: Thoughts pershaps are the forms knowledge takes
Threedee Shepherd: Red is, I don't "think" red. Is that how Great Knowledge is?
Paradise Tennant: :))
Eos Amaterasu: "ontologizing", formation, forming what things are relative to us, is very basic knowledge activity
Adelene Dawner: Squee: The education of a person is never completed until he dies.
Eos Amaterasu: "grokking" something is like perception
Eos Amaterasu: One approach to this is that we can make a simplifying assumption (which is a logical, verbal sort of thing):
Eos Amaterasu: "knowledge" in the dimensional sense we are discussing is not "created"
Pema Pera: the givenness of red, as a sheer givenness, is close to "what is" I think, and as such close to Great Knowledge, but the givenness of thoughts is, too -- we don't have to somehow find something more otherwordly or more direct or more simple: Great Knowledge is everywhere *as* all that presents itself
Paradise Tennant: maybe the best way to understand the totality is to surrender to it .. through accepting what is now this very moment the end results of a billion probabilities :))
Pema Pera: yes, Eos, reifying, making something into a thing (the word something has that built in already,unfortunately); Im responding to your "ontologizing"
SophiaSharon Larnia: what is the difference between your definition of great knowledge vs cognition, Pema?
Pema Pera: and yes, Eos, not created, not constructed from something else, and not permanent, just a presentation
Threedee Shepherd: Great Knowledge is not static in that it contains the seeds of expanded knowledge that continuously emerges, correct?
Pema Pera: Sophia, the term "Great Knowledge" comes from a book called "Time, Space and Knowledge", so it's not my definition; and I mentioned in an earlier session that we could use the general word "cognition" instead of "knowledge" if we like
Pema Pera: yes, surrendering is close to "seeing is enough" -- when you really see the truth of a math proof, you also "surrender" -- you have not wiggling room left :-)
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Pema Pera: Three, that is another question posed in the logic of "first level knowledge"
Fefonz Quan: (silently enters)
Eliza Madrigal: (silently says hello to fef)
Fefonz Quan: (Hi all)
Pema Pera: Great Knowledge is beyond static and dynamic, and it doesn't contain anything concrete that you could call seeds, but it is more like the "condition of possibility for" anything to appear at all
Pema Pera: hi Fef!
Paradise Tennant: hya fef :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Fefonz
--BELL--
Threedee Shepherd: So Great Knowledge is all of the possible parallel universes all at once?
Pema Pera: well, it is not a sum total of all that, it is what makes it possible for any of that to appear -- it's not like it's somewhere in a huge store house from which it comes out, there is no conservation law
Eos Amaterasu: perhaps it's more like "knowingness" contains all possible knowings
Pema Pera: btw, for those wondering where the term "Great Knowledge" comes from: it's from the book Time, Space, Knowledge: http://www.amazon.com/Time-Space-Kno...7538611&sr=1-1
Paradise Tennant: lovely way of expressing it eos
Pema Pera: and we started talking about that a few sessions ago, because some of the key ideas behind PaB were inspired by that book, which Stim wrote on behalf of his teacher, thirty years ago, based on interviews with his teacher
Pema Pera: yes, Eos, like time "contains" motion and space "contains" location
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eos Amaterasu: So in an abstract way we can make the simplifying assumption that such knowing is as fudamental as thosoe two (time and space)
Pema Pera: yes
Paradise Tennant: hmm not sure time is so fundamental
Eos Amaterasu: And then there's the experimental practice of directly experiencing that knowing - which can be bracketed by abstract discussion of what it's not
Paradise Tennant: funny stuff it seems
Threedee Shepherd: Pema, is it meaningful to ask this? Suppose I accept, know, realize, experience (pick the best word) TSK, then what?
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Pema Pera: and many of the questions about knowledge can be seen in the light of the questions you would pose if you knew about space but not about the notion of "time" -- you would ask: does a bullet have more "time" than a mountain" -- since you would likely take something visible like motion to be time; time is the condition of possibility for motion
Pema Pera: yes, Eos
Pema Pera: then there is no "you" anymore, Three :-)
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Paradise Tennant: yes you will have broken throught the bounds of your senses
Pema Pera: more practically speaking: you can then wear your "you" identity in a much more light way
Eos Amaterasu: That's a kind of personal Copernican shift
Paradise Tennant: *through
Pema Pera: you can play to be "Threedee" or "Mark" or whatever function you have, as a role
Pema Pera: the world becomes the role play that is has always only been -- nothing ultmately real, a fascinating dream
Pema Pera: yes, Eos, very much so, and ultimately beyond personal in some sense too
Threedee Shepherd: Will there still be "people" who are suffering?
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, I think that might bring it back to ThreeDee's question....
Pema Pera: yes, Paradise and also beyond the bounds of your thinking (what the Buddhist call another sense)
Pema Pera: there will be the appearance of suffering, for sure
Paradise Tennant: yes but you will be much better placed to help them :))
Adelene Dawner: Three: If they choose to.
Eos Amaterasu: I think if it's more than isolated personal experience, and if it enters dialogue and communicatin, social forms, then what?
Pema Pera: Stim has talked at length about how compassion starts with seeing that suffering has no reality component, ultimately, so the challenge of real compassion is to help others see that -- not to somehow make all conditions for suffering disappear
Paradise Tennant: :)
Pema Pera: the PaB, for example, Eos :-)
Pema Pera: *then
Pema Pera: is that what you meant?
Threedee Shepherd: hunger hurts, food not a different viewpoint is what is needed
Pema Pera: yes, and it is certainly a good thing to try to prevent hunger!
Eos Amaterasu: I think that's what's exciting about the PaB form - it's group shared experience and reflection on that
Adelene Dawner: Just because something hurts doesn't mean you have to suffer.
Pema Pera: but if you are stuck with hunger, you still have options . . . like in any situation in life
Pema Pera: yes, Adelene
Fefonz Quan: 'Pain is inevitable, suffering is an option'
Adelene Dawner thinks of the phrase 'suffering from autism' as an example.
Pema Pera: yes, Eos, we collectively ween off our habitual identifications
Threedee Shepherd: Yes there are options, and a role I would play is to both feed now and teach to fish later
Pema Pera: *wean
Pema Pera: yes, exactly, Threedee
Threedee Shepherd: Agreed Fefonz
Pema Pera: indeed, Fef, difficult as it may seem at first
Adelene Dawner: And that's useful in the sense of keeping people from starving to death, Three, but does it actually stop people from suffering? Most of the people I know are at no risk of starving to death, but they still suffer.
Eos Amaterasu: I don't think such a big view goes against the littlest details being visible, including very specific actions
Threedee Shepherd: both feed now and teach to fish later both sound like "first level" to me
SophiaSharon Larnia: will some not seek to learn to fish if they are not hungry
Fefonz Quan: somehow i would expect such radical change to reduce pain at least somewhat...
Pema Pera: ah, but first level is part of third level -- it can be a first level expression of a third level in sight -- we don't go "poof" after getting more insight :-)
Pema Pera: good point, Sophia!
Paradise Tennant: no we get up and do the laundry :)
Threedee Shepherd: I retract the injection of the word suffering. I meant pain. Let's not go off on that tangent, please
Paradise Tennant: but are more pleased about it :)
--BELL--
Pema Pera: pain is extremely subjective, can be felt far more and far less intensely and seemingly unbearable depending on so many aspects of the situation -- in an extreme form, martyrs seem to have found ways to deal with incredible pain -- in an everyday form, the placebo effect can already make a huge difference in the amount of pain we feel
Threedee Shepherd: I guess all I was trying to say is that "local" enlightenment does not yield "global" perfection.
Eos Amaterasu: That is a really good question!
Paradise Tennant: hmm global perfection already is .. we just do not see it
Paradise Tennant: the seeing is the door
Pema Pera: yes, indeed!
Pema Pera: and compassion is to help others see that
Threedee Shepherd: Paradise, you could have fooled me!
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Paradise Tennant: i guess to use a loose metaphor .. we can see more truly with our hearts than our eyes :)
Threedee Shepherd: No disagreement with that Paradise
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Pema Pera: but if you reify the appearance of a "global world, really existing in space and time, stretching out over lang distances and periods", then, no, there is no perfection possible in such a world, Three
Pema Pera: we need to let go of "self" and "existence" and "past-present-future time"
Pema Pera: otherwise what Paradise said makes no sense
Paradise Tennant: break through the shell our sense construct
Paradise Tennant: *senses
Threedee Shepherd: Well, my corpus of cells seems to embody such reification, such that I cannot ignore it
Pema Pera: the light of the projector of a movie has a different kind of perfection that the problems displayed on the screen
Fefonz Quan: yet we have such great empirical evidence of this global world, that it is weird why all this evidenc eis only dream-like
Pema Pera: *than
Eos Amaterasu: Both heart and eyes need education, and personal practice....
Eliza Madrigal: yes and then perhaps our actions are more effective from that heart place also
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: you shouldn't ignore it, Threedee, but you can see a deeper reality in/as it
Pema Pera: like "seeing" that water and ice are different forms of the same substance, strange as it may sound at first when comparing how different they look
Eos Amaterasu: Every single little detail is still important - but that's not reification
Fefonz Quan: onl that everyone can easily melt ice in his kitchen...
Fefonz Quan: only*
Threedee Shepherd: Pema, I understand what you say. AND, I am not sure there is a deeper reality to see. Yes, I know that if I am not looking, I will not "see", and the "catch" is that if there is no deeper reality, I cannot prove that null hypothesis.
Eos Amaterasu: melting thoughts in one's own mind :-)
Pema Pera: :)
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Fefonz Quan: Yes Eos, the catch is that those mind kitchens are far too private
Pema Pera: Three, we've had four or so of these theme sessions on Knowledge, shall we end this miniseries here, or alternatively pick a different theme for next week?
Paradise Tennant: actually proof of a oneness a connectedness that is in direct contradiction our illusory idea of self I think is not far off if what I can make out of quantum science is correct :)
Eos Amaterasu: Yes... but kitchen parties are such fun, Fefonz!
Threedee Shepherd: I have nothing more to add at this time re this topic, so another would be interesting
Pema Pera: quantum mechanics is a great metaphor, I think, Paradise -- similar challenges to think differently
Pema Pera: okay, we can later think of a new topic, unless one pops up spontaneously now
Eliza Madrigal: and you can feed a lot of people out of just one kitchen
Pema Pera: it has been a great discussion, Threedee, over these four sessions, thanks a lot!
Paradise Tennant: hmm yes time as geography .. the mass of our species within the space of sugar cube !
Threedee Shepherd: thanks, everyone !
Fefonz Quan: (has there been four? thought i saw less)
Eos Amaterasu: I think this sort of thinking/appreciation, could make a big difference, to society, for example to the solid bottom line
Paradise Tennant: thanks everyone :))
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks very much everyone. Wonderful :)
Pema Pera: I'll have to run off to catch my colleages for lunch.
Eliza Madrigal: yes Eos, agreed
Threedee Shepherd: There have been two formal ones and at least one or two that led into them
Pema Pera: yes, thanks everybody, this has been very helpful!
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, thanks, all!
Fefonz Quan: Thanks Pema, Threedee, Eos
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Estrela
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Pema
Threedee Shepherd: Goodnight friends. I need to leave and will close the log now.