2009.07.06 13:00 - Compassion

The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim
Stim Morane: Hi Scathach
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello gaya
Stim Morane: hi Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath and Stim :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Would you mind me lowering the fountain?
Stim Morane: fine with me
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: How are you both today?
Stim Morane: fine, thanks. And you ?
Scathach Rhiadra: fine thank you:)
Gaya Ethaniel: Good thanks you :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Stim is a puff of bright cloud on my screen ...
Stim Morane: how did I manage that?
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, I can see him
Gaya Ethaniel: I must be lagging *shrug*
Scathach Rhiadra: if you zoom in on him, it may help
Gaya Ethaniel: nah, it's ok. It's just as mesmerising.
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Stim Morane: yes, i must admit i find these cloud-avatars quite distracting
Gaya Ethaniel: It's nice though in a way :)
Gaya Ethaniel: A simpler image ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Stim I read a log where Pema quotes you on compassion and have a question about it.
Stim Morane: ?
Gaya Ethaniel: I can't find the actual log ... anyway, real compassion is to know that no one needs help. There was no further discussion on it.
Gaya Ethaniel: So ... I wonder if you could expand on that. Did you mean that each one of us is capable of 'helping' ourselves or ... ?
Gaya Ethaniel: There is no 'problems' ... ?
Stim Morane: no, sorry ... i didn't mean to suggest that.
Stim Morane: I think this is a fragment of a longer discussion. For now, I could just say that real compassion is not an emotion or any other product of the ordinary mind.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi everyone :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eliza, Mick
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza and Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Gaya Stim eliza scath
Stim Morane: hi eliza, mick
Stim Morane: it is inseparable from a kind of "seeing" that appreciates other beings' difficulties, but ALSO sees that in some particularly important sense, the beings are still OK.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Stim Morane: if you don't see the latter, the former isn't enough to qualify as com
Stim Morane: *compassion
Mickorod Renard: Hi Tarmel
Gaya Ethaniel: Why seeing the latter so important? Some situations can be pretty bad ... but I guess it is important to have that overall frame of mind?
Mickorod Renard: compassion is a beautiful word
Eliza Madrigal: Is the discussion emapthy v. compassion?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tarmel :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tarmel :)
Stim Morane: Hi Tarmel!
Tarmel Udimo: Hi There All!
Stim Morane: We're talking about "compassion".
Tarmel Udimo: ty you
Stim Morane: there's no reason to push one traditional view over more familiar, conventional ones.
Stim Morane: But if we were talking about the Buddhist view, it would end up like what I said.
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Stim Morane: The reason is that you can't help other beings in the truest sense, i.e. to wake up, if you don't see that they already have an enlightened nature. 'Help' means 'helping them appreciate what they are'
Mickorod Renard: Stim,,did you say something re compassion beore you said;-V
Mickorod Renard: Stim Morane: it is inseparable from a kind of "seeing" that appreciates other beings' difficulties, but ALSO sees that in some particularly important sense, the beings are still OK.
Stim Morane: otherwise you just end up putting bandaids on peoples' problems.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Let me make a nc - one moment ...
Mickorod Renard: thankyou gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
Tarmel Udimo: I think sometimes we confuse compassion with doing good
Tarmel Udimo: ty Gaya
Eliza Madrigal: So the heart of compassion is knowing the true nature of beings and responding to that, whether in ourselves or others, rather than what seems to be?
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Gaya
Stim Morane: It's like the old adage that it's better to teach people how to feed themselves, than to give them a little food.
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Stim Morane: Here the point is that if you help them appreciate why they are OK, they can hold that in the midst of all life's ups and downs. Otherwise, you can perk them up a bit on one occasion, but then they get distressed again in another situation.
Gaya Ethaniel: My pleasure :)
Stim Morane: So compassion then is to fully 'feel with' others, meaning feeling both their distress and their ever-present 'salvation'.
Stim Morane: So you can show them the latter and how to hold it.
Tarmel Udimo: in the hope they will accept this - often people are not ready to give up the crisis they are in:)
Mickorod Renard: do you think there are some people capable of relieving others distress,through a form of compassion
Stim Morane: yes, Tarmel ... it's a tough sell sometimes
Stim Morane: sure, Mick. But that compassion involves "showing", even education.
Tarmel Udimo: the best form of compassion then is to truely be onesself
Mickorod Renard: education can be just showing that you are connected to their feeling of distress,,and that you are there for them?
Stim Morane: yes, that's actually true ... but that "self" is the "self with and for others"
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Wol :)
Wol Euler: hello invisibles, sorry I'm late
Stim Morane: this was directed to Tarmel
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Wol
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Wol
Stim Morane: Hi wol
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Wol
Stim Morane: Mick, I guess education can be many things. I was thinking in a traditional way, perhaps not necessary for our present purposes.
Mickorod Renard: ok
Stim Morane: Wol, are those feathers in you hair?
Wol Euler: no, I'm not quite sure what htey are :) cyberornaments, or attachment points for my union wiht the Borg
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Stim Morane: I see, yes. I should have known.
Stim Morane: :)
Wol Euler: mechanical rasta-locks :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Resistance is futile!
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Stim Morane: Hi Fefonz
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
Mickorod Renard: I remember a few years ago going through a period where I felt very sensitive and compassionate about peoples plight,,it was quite a nice period,,although traumatic,,but now I feel i have become cold again
Fefonz Quan: greetings all :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Fef
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fef :)
Wol Euler: hello fefonz
Stim Morane: The kind of 'compassion' I was referring to would pop up even when you, the self, are feeling cold.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Mickorod Renard: Hi Yaku
Eliza Madrigal: Last night I was reading about the heart sutra, and actually a biblical reference floated up about "guarding one's heart with all dilligence for out of it spring the issues of life" Hearing that anew, with an appreciation of cultivation of the heart, rather than guarding, was really nice... quite helpful in thinking about compassion.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
Stim Morane: hi Yakuzza
Eliza Madrigal: Hiya Ya :))
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Yakuzza
Fefonz Quan: hey Yaku
Stim Morane: brb
Eliza Madrigal: For me it just meant "be ready"
Mickorod Renard: still trying to work that one out eliza
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Stim Morane: bcak
Eliza Madrigal: It may have resonance for no one else but me..as happens surely..hehe
Stim Morane: *back
Gaya Ethaniel thinks ... being ready ... interesting.
Gaya Ethaniel: wb Stim :)
Mickorod Renard: maybe,,but again, I wonder whether my coldness has become a blinker on what i may have been more sensitive too
Fefonz Quan: i find it somehow difficult to connect the heart sutra directly to compassion though
Stim Morane: no, Eliza, it's a very interesting point ... cultivating rather than guarding.
Eliza Madrigal: I thought that in that line, issues, means Wisdom/Virtue...seeing through things to the heart.
Stim Morane: Yes, that sutra isn't about compassion primarily
Stim Morane: yes, Eliza
Mickorod Renard: maybe the mind and the heart need to be open and welcoming to seeing?
Eliza Madrigal: Tarmel, that just seems the way to connect with that sense of what we and others truly are... to act with compassion beyond 'thinking'
Tarmel Udimo: Just found a little para about compassion that talks about the approach you mentioned before Stim
Stim Morane: ?
Tarmel Udimo: sorry Eliza was busy looking for this
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, no worries. :) I'd intended to sit quietly today..heh
Tarmel Udimo: opps now i have to give it out - :)
Fefonz Quan: yep :)
Tarmel Udimo: a bit slow please keep talking
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm curious about this bit - [13:18] Tarmel Udimo: in the hope they will accept this - often people are not ready to give up the crisis they are in:)
Gaya Ethaniel: Why would anyone want to stay within crisis?
Stim Morane: yes, the account is right.
Mickorod Renard: ty tarmel
Gaya Ethaniel: ty :)
Wol Euler: ty tarmel
Eliza Madrigal: TY Tarmel
Scathach Rhiadra: ty
Fefonz Quan: thanks tarmel, nice paragraph
Fefonz Quan: Because in going out of the crisis they might loose something they cherish more, Gaya
Tarmel Udimo: I found it inspiring because it takes the pressure off being perfect and in fact just doing what is needed
Wol Euler: being in a crisis can be comforting in a way, it gives you a defined role and an unassailable reason for acting the way you do
Tarmel Udimo: yes sorry Gaya, often I find people (including myself) can only see so much)
Mickorod Renard: thats a very nice way of identifying with compassion,,thanks
Fefonz Quan: I liked the notion that you can care for others suffering without making yourself suffer too.
Tarmel Udimo: and it would mean having to change, yes Wol
Gaya Ethaniel: Probably can help better if the helper isn't suffering I guess.
Eliza Madrigal nods to Fef... yes can you help if you merely jump in?
Fefonz Quan nods to Gaya
Tarmel Udimo: well but we do
Gaya Ethaniel: Wol, I don't quite understand what you said.
Gaya Ethaniel reads again ... sorry.
Eliza Madrigal: Great note, thank you
Gaya Ethaniel: It can reinforce the way one lives you mean?
Gaya Ethaniel: Justify?
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
Wol Euler: in the way that people get used to being in hospital
Mickorod Renard: I think its very good,,but one has to be observant to notice someone is in dificulties,,when one cant help there is a risk of feeling unhelpful
Tarmel Udimo: in the way that people get used to be who they are or think they are, we spend alot of time upholding that
Tarmel Udimo: well that's because you are attached to the outcome Mick
Mickorod Renard: yes perhaps
Fefonz Quan: Mick, maybe any compassionate interaction with the one suffers can help, even if we don't change the objective reality for him?
Mickorod Renard: I am content that in my past i have,,proberbly by chance,,managed to provide a positive outcome..maybe the by chance has just been the positive offer
Tarmel Udimo: and often we may not be there to witness this
Mickorod Renard: Hi Pema
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey pema
Fefonz Quan: it is very interesting to see how much we think of ourselves when coming to help others
Fefonz Quan: Hey Pema!
Tarmel Udimo: Hey its Pema!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :)
Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
Wol Euler: hello pema
Stim Morane: pema
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
Pema Pera: (just woke up, it's 5:45 am here)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pema :)
Tarmel Udimo: its 6:45am here :P
Fefonz Quan: maybe that's what Stim meant when he said that acting from the 'self' brings some limits to compassion
Mickorod Renard: there was a time when in offering help there seemed to be a consiousness of cost,,but y best observations are that of when I found that I felt no personal loss,,or risk of loss in offering help..which fortunately is still present in me
Eliza Madrigal nods
Stim Morane: hi arabella
arabella Ella: hiya
Yakuzza Lethecus: hiya ara
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara :)
Fefonz Quan: hi Arabella
Mickorod Renard: Hi ara
Tarmel Udimo: hi ara
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello arabella and Arisia :)
Pema Pera: Hi Ara!
Mickorod Renard: nice scratch of the back
Wol Euler: hello ara
Tarmel Udimo: I think if we are seeing clearly what needs to happen (and sometines its best to do nothing) is there a cost?
Mickorod Renard: maybe one should think twice if there is a need to feel that there is a cost,,maybe that is not a virtuous offer of help?
Tarmel Udimo: does it need to be virtuous?
Mickorod Renard: no, spose not
Stim Morane: :)
Tarmel Udimo: :)
Wol Euler: wb pema
Pema Pera: :)
Tarmel Udimo: seeing myself of yesteryear, rushing around trying deperately to being helpful and hopefully compassionate:)
Gaya Ethaniel: Personally I have become more reluctant to 'help' over the last year unless it's straight-forward generosity/donation etc.
Tarmel Udimo: often most people just wanted me to go away
Stim Morane: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Fefonz Quan: that can be helpful sometimes indeed :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Or sometimes they just want a friendly ear.
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe fefonz:P
Stim Morane: Speaking of going away, I need to leave a bit early today, to get ready for another meeting ... thanks, everyone!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Stim, thanks :)
Fefonz Quan: bye Stim!
Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day Stim :)
Mickorod Renard: bye Stim
Tarmel Udimo: bye Stim
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Stim
Stim Morane: Bye
Wol Euler: bye stim, thank you
arabella Ella: bye stim
Tarmel Udimo: how are you Pema?
Tarmel Udimo: still in Japan?
Pema Pera: oh fine! I'll have to leave soon too -- to go to the same meeting as Stim :-)
Pema Pera: yes, in Kyoto
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Gaya Ethaniel: I think it's difficult for me to see exactly what help people need so I have become more careful in a way.
Pema Pera: like you. living in "tomorrow"
Gaya Ethaniel: Have fun Pema :)
Tarmel Udimo: grins
Wol Euler: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: We are lagging behind :)
Wol Euler: have a great day, pema
Pema Pera: thanks, Gaya, and thanks for the notecard -- great discussion today, sorry I couldn't come earlier
Eliza Madrigal: To me intention matters in some way we can't always factor
Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
Eliza Madrigal: so that would be where virtue comes in
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Pema
Mickorod Renard: I have to go too,,not the samemeeting.;)
Tarmel Udimo: bye pema
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Mick
Pema Pera: Stim really has a way to sum up a life-long teaching in one sentence . . . .
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Mick :)
Fefonz Quan: bye Pema, Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: bye
Wol Euler: bye mick, pema
Eliza Madrigal listens
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema, Mick
Gaya Ethaniel: He is very good at explaining yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye all :) Thank you
Pema Pera: bye, everybody!
Fefonz Quan: will SL ever come with the feature of attaining two places at teh same time?
Tarmel Udimo: and I am off to play reading, bye all for now:)
Wol Euler: perhaps soon after RL does?
Fefonz Quan: bye Eliza, Tarmel
arabella Ella: bye pema Tarmel
Wol Euler: bye tarmel, have fun
Fefonz Quan: yeah rightr Wol!
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure Fefonz, you can run multiple SL windows heheheh
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: good discussion!
Yakuzza Lethecus: o good niht everyone :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day Tarmel :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Scath are you going too?
Fefonz Quan: yes, not an elegant solution SW wise Gaya :)
arabella Ella: sounds like this was a very interesting discussion ... but fraid i must leave now too
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
arabella Ella: nite all
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I need an early night:)
Fefonz Quan: nite Ara
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night arabella :)
Wol Euler: 'niht scath, ara
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Scath :)
Fefonz Quan: night Scath
Scathach Rhiadra: good night all, Namasté
Gaya Ethaniel: Eliza was going to say something about intention but left :(
Wol Euler: remind her next time. I'm sure her intentions were good :)
Fefonz Quan: the road to paradise is full aith good intentions :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)#
Fefonz Quan: with*
Wol Euler: (oh lord, please don't let her be misundesrstood)
Gaya Ethaniel: I thought the road to hell is paved with good intentions ...
Fefonz Quan: pam papapam papapam, papapam pam pam pam
Gaya Ethaniel: She won't :)
Wol Euler: right :)
Wol Euler: who wrote that, fef? I can only hear Elvis Costello singing it, but I'm sure he wasn't the author
Fefonz Quan: yes Gaya i was improvising :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ahhhh
Fefonz Quan: i can hear him to, i wrote the intrumental line right after it
Gaya Ethaniel: I am having some issues with 'good' ... "good on its own" - what would this mean?
Wol Euler: was it the Animals? Eric Burdon?
Fefonz Quan: i don't know indeed.
Fefonz Quan: yes, sometimes good is over used
Wol Euler: sorry gaya, we are doing a music-geek thing :)
Gaya Ethaniel: heheheheh
Fefonz Quan: museek
Gaya Ethaniel laughs!
Gaya Ethaniel: Think I will log off and cut some slack :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night both :)
Wol Euler: wikipedia says written for (not by) Nina Simone, most famous recording probably The Animals
Fefonz Quan: sound grea, if i knew what that mean :)
Wol Euler: 'night gaya, sleep well, take care. Be good.
Wol Euler: :)
Fefonz Quan: night Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: :P
Fefonz Quan: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ty :)
Wol Euler: :-)))
Fefonz Quan: since when having some more-than-average knowledge about something became geekhood?
Wol Euler: since being above-average became a term of abuse, sometime during Bush's presidency
Wol Euler: probably about the time that World Wrestling Federation guy became Governor or Michigan and nobody could tell the difference
Fefonz Quan: well, i agree with the first part, and i think it is much more global than blaming it all on bush
Wol Euler: true, but blaming it on Bush is so much fun.
Fefonz Quan: yes, though overused too :)
Fefonz Quan: today's last 5 min where the fastest population escape i saw here for some time...
Fefonz Quan: as Stim fled, it stimulated all the others :)
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: feeling they should follow him, perhaps? IS he running a workshop today?
Fefonz Quan: no, not today, its on thursday
Wol Euler: well, I am afraid I too have to get going, I have much to do still before my holiday.
Wol Euler: I wish you pleasant evening, and a peaceful night
Fefonz Quan: cool. good night to you too.
Wol Euler: bye for now
Fefonz Quan: _/!\_