2009.07.28 19:00 - Purpose

The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

Hana Furlough: hi eos
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Hana
Hana Furlough: how are you this evening?
Eos Amaterasu: Pretty good.... how are you being?
Hana Furlough: i'm Being pretty well thanks

Why is Being playing us?

Hana Furlough: can i ask, why do you think being is playing us?
Eos Amaterasu: Does play have a goal?
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Hana Furlough: haha nice
Hana Furlough: so no purpose
Eos Amaterasu: Here's a koanic Q&A....
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Hana and Eos!
Hana Furlough: hi pema
Eos Amaterasu: Q: What is the purpose of meditation?
Eos Amaterasu: A: Meditation is dealing with purpose
Hana Furlough: but i really feel like there is no reason for meditation
Hana Furlough: it's just expressing things as they is (as suzuki shunryu might say)
Eos Amaterasu: But it's a good question (Hana was asking , Hana Furlough: can i ask, why do you think being is playing us?
Hana Furlough: well, Being is obviously ALWAYS there no matter what, right?
Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, I don't know
Hana Furlough: maybe not but i get that sense
Pema Pera: many points, where to start :-) . . . .
Pema Pera: yes, the whole notion of "purpose" needs to be inspected, and meditation is a good way to do that -- was that the sense of your Q&A, Eos?
Eos Amaterasu: Yes.... also with aspects of what Hana was referring to from Suzuki Roshi
Pema Pera: and yes, Hana, I agree: meditation has no purpose . . . but to unpack that sentence is an interesting challenge then
Eos Amaterasu: Suzuki Roshi said something like, we don't practice for the sake of enlightenment; rather, because we are enlightened, we practice
Hana Furlough: right i think that's dogen's perspective as well
Pema Pera: As for Being playing and always being there, that may be almost too much already. Being IS, anything more may be extraneous
Hana Furlough: but we lose touch with that in our usual way of thinking
Pema Pera: yes, we practice as a gesture, to celebrate, showing our appreciation
Hana Furlough: like shinran
Pema Pera: yes, it is a universal gesture, seen in the utterances of many great figures in many traditions, but often neglected by their followers, since it is too radical and disconcerting!
Pema Pera: also, doesn't fit in well with the idea of a franchise :-)
Pema Pera: an organization
Hana Furlough: i can see that
Pema Pera: much easier to rope people in if you can offer them a goal -- you pay us and work for us, and we show you the road to salvation, good deal, hey? :)
Hana Furlough: sounds good to me, lol
Pema Pera: and seriously, not a bad approach -- but at some point we all have to wean off that notion
Hana Furlough: what about the notion of a path?
Pema Pera: it can only go so far; pretty far, but not all the way (from the relative point of view; it goes nowhere from the absolute point of view :)
Eos Amaterasu: there's a notion of practice, or discipline, which has to do with not separating yourself at all from experience

--BELL--

Pema Pera: Hi jeena, good seeing you again!
Hana Furlough: hi jeena~
jeena Cyberstar: hey ya'll !
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Jeena
jeena Cyberstar: thank you
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Mary
jeena Cyberstar: what's going on?
Mary Korpov: hi
Hana Furlough: hi mary
Pema Pera: Hi Mary!
Mary Korpov: hi
Eos Amaterasu: We were talking about being, and being playing, and practice, and purpose, :-)
Mary Korpov: Sounds like a light conversation
Pema Pera: :)
jeena Cyberstar: nice
Hana Furlough: lighter than you can imagine : )
jeena Cyberstar: and what do we have so far?
Pema Pera: Come join us if you like, Mary!
Mary Korpov: ok
Pema Pera: Have you been here before?
Mary Korpov: no
jeena Cyberstar: a few times now
Pema Pera: Mary, we get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
jeena Cyberstar: but i don't think i have the hang of that bell
jeena Cyberstar: haha
Pema Pera: (yes, Jeena, I remember, I was asking Mary, sorry)
Mary Korpov: it's ok
Pema Pera: thanks!
Pema Pera: well, Jeena, I think we all conclude that meditation (practice, exploration) has no real purpose :-)
Pema Pera: and we were talking about what such a conclusion can mean . . . .
jeena Cyberstar: really? wow i think it has a great purpose
Mary Korpov: me too
Pema Pera: such as?
Mary Korpov: focusing one's mind
jeena Cyberstar: thinking stretching the mind
Mary Korpov: emptying the mind
jeena Cyberstar: peacefulness
jeena Cyberstar: calm rational thought
Mary Korpov: nothingness
jeena Cyberstar: quiet comfort
Mary Korpov: no self
jeena Cyberstar: high five Mary
Hana Furlough: lol
Pema Pera: yes, that is certainly a good approach, to view it that we (as we also discussed) but the question is, can we do even better than trying to do something for a purpose? We came up with the notion of meditating as a gesture of celebration or appreciation, letting all the aspects you both mentioned happen as side effects, not as something to reach for
Pema Pera: lol indeed :-)
Pema Pera: we'll appoint you two to the PaB propaganda department :>)
Hana Furlough: lol that's amazing!
Mary Korpov: Sounds like something buddhists have argued about
Eos Amaterasu: (pretty good)
Pema Pera: yes, but not only Buddhists
jeena Cyberstar: think about a time when you were conflicted...
Pema Pera: Medieval Christian mystics, Islamic Sufis, Hindus, you name them
Hana Furlough: can you name a few of these medieval christian mystics?
Eos Amaterasu: "once you know where it's at, there you jolly well are, aren't you?" (Lord Buckley)
jeena Cyberstar: and the noise all around causing you to react...
Pema Pera: oh, the anonymous writer of "The Cloud of Unknowing", or Meister Eckhart, or certain passages in Ruisbroek, etc <-- Hana
jeena Cyberstar: without such meditation and clarity of mind...what might have been disasterous, was thwarted by mere thought
jeena Cyberstar: i think that is the purpose...think before reacting
Hana Furlough: great thank you
Eos Amaterasu: even when you attain all those things, peace, etc, you still find yourself there
Mary Korpov: Meister Eckhart, St. Francis...
Pema Pera: yes, Francis is another great example
jeena Cyberstar: i don't know who they are...
Hana Furlough: neither do i. that's why i asked
Mary Korpov: The Cloud of Unknowing is interesting--haven't read it in a while.
Pema Pera: yes, Jeena, of course meditation can help in such situations -- but to view mediation only as a means to a goal may be limiting meditation
Mary Korpov: Problem is that talking about this stuff seems to defeat the purpose
jeena Cyberstar: i think the purpose is that we as individuals think for ourselves...maybe come up with soemthing new
Pema Pera: like viewing your lover as a means to become more happy and peaceful -- that may be, but he/she is much more than that
Pema Pera: so that's what we were talking about, just before you came in :)
Eos Amaterasu: yes, that can be a great example of purposelessness
Pema Pera: Glad you've come across The Cloud, Mary! It's a great little book . . . .
Mary Korpov: It's interesting
Mary Korpov: Julian of Norwich also has some interesting things

--BELL--

jeena Cyberstar: if you mean your love makes you happy because you enjoy making he/she happy then i agree...but if you mean viewing your love as someone who can make you happy by his/her actions toward you...is not possible....which brings up "what is love"
Pema Pera: Here's the full text of The Cloud
Eos Amaterasu: I thnk that's an experience people have, of being together, and feeling that there's no need to go elesewhere
Eos Amaterasu: that can be appreaciation of what's right here
Hana Furlough: sounds just like Being
Eos Amaterasu: which goals can seduce you away from

Love as a purpose-free expression?

Pema Pera: yes, Jeena, and the purest form of love may be to just express love without expecting anything in return, rare as that may be . . . .
Hana Furlough: i'm not sure that is possible
Mary Korpov: Depends on what you mean by love
jeena Cyberstar: so what does love mean to everyone here?
Mary Korpov: emptiness
Hana Furlough: i don't know
jeena Cyberstar: come on hana..what is love to you...everyone has a notion i was imagine
Hana Furlough: honestly? disappointment
jeena Cyberstar nods
Mary Korpov: only if one is looking for something in return
Eos Amaterasu: or something to gain
Eos Amaterasu: (back to goals)
Mary Korpov: love = nothingness
jeena Cyberstar: maybe you want passion or loyalty or something else more?
Mary Korpov: passion and love are different
jeena Cyberstar: exactly
jeena Cyberstar: lust vs love
Mary Korpov: they are different, too
Eos Amaterasu: as many words for love as for snow :-)
jeena Cyberstar: lust is a feeling that we sense as uncontrolling feelings....love is a choice
Mary Korpov: Really? What other words are there for love?
Eos Amaterasu: pick a language....
Eos Amaterasu: many shades of meaning
Mary Korpov: Oh, I thought you meant in English. Some languages don't have a word that translates well to the English love.
Eos Amaterasu: caritas.... agape... milosc.... compassion...
Eos Amaterasu: Ah, quite likely!
Mary Korpov: I'm not sure they mean "love"
Mary Korpov: agape is Greek, right?
Eos Amaterasu: yes
jeena Cyberstar: there describing what love in my opinion is like trying to describe "what is God"
Mary Korpov: Does it equate with the English love? I don't know
Eos Amaterasu: Can you say more about love as emptiness, Mary?
Hana Furlough: jeena, i agree!
Mary Korpov: Wow, that presents a contradiction, since emptiness implies something you can't talk about.
Eos Amaterasu: that's why it's called play :-)
Mary Korpov: I think love happens when one eliminates self.
jeena Cyberstar: because it's how you interpret love and express it doesn't mean that is what it is
jeena Cyberstar: that's why all the sad love songs :)
jeena Cyberstar: the disappointments...etc
Mary Korpov: Or are thy sad lust song?
jeena Cyberstar: exactly!
jeena Cyberstar: hehe
Hana Furlough: thich nhat hanh says true love needs understanding, otherwise it's something else
jeena Cyberstar: but that is not so romantic
jeena Cyberstar: exactly
jeena Cyberstar: but the rappers get it right
jeena Cyberstar: haha
Hana Furlough: lol
Mary Korpov: I don't listen to rap
jeena Cyberstar: me either but if you listen...they don't hide the fact that they are speaking truth
Mary Korpov: lust seems to me to be a form of clinging; love is a form of release
jeena Cyberstar: the truth hurts
Mary Korpov: what's truth?
jeena Cyberstar: and ignorance is bliss :)
jeena Cyberstar: hahaha
jeena Cyberstar: love it
Mary Korpov: or do you lust after it

--BELL--

jeena Cyberstar: truth we shall never know because even in the expression of truth...truth as i see and truth as you see...will likely be different so again same as love, as god...truth another enigma
Mary Korpov: Rashomon
jeena Cyberstar looks around..what?
jeena Cyberstar: lol
Eos Amaterasu: I think re Play as Being, the 90 secs and 9 secs suspensions, "all we are saying, is give being a chance"
Pema Pera: lol, Eos!
Eos Amaterasu: when you let it be it opens up
Hana Furlough: it totally does
jeena Cyberstar: lol
Eos Amaterasu: that can be found in "being in love", so to speak
jeena Cyberstar: "let it be, let it be...let it be...let it be...." hmmm sounds familiar
jeena Cyberstar: :)
jeena Cyberstar: "there will be an answer...let it be"
jeena Cyberstar: okay maybe ya''ll too young to know that Beetles song
jeena Cyberstar: haha
Mary Korpov: Where does "let it be" come from?
Eos Amaterasu: Whatever?
jeena Cyberstar: oh my god that is the movement song of the era...Beetles?? hmm
Mary Korpov: What era? I'm not familiar with the Beetles other than the name
Eos Amaterasu: Ah - they actually had some really good songs, that seem to last
jeena Cyberstar: oh wow...ok...you all should really listen to that song by paul mccartney "let it be"
Mary Korpov: I dislike rock, intensly
jeena Cyberstar: 60's, 70's
jeena Cyberstar: rock is a way of life
Mary Korpov: not for me
jeena Cyberstar: iof rebellion
jeena Cyberstar: expression...just another way of expression
Mary Korpov: Maybe that's why I don't like it; I see nothing to rebel against
jeena Cyberstar: to fight the "status quo"
Mary Korpov: Yes, but it sounds so horrid
Mary Korpov: I embrace the status quo
jeena Cyberstar: must be nice to be completely content with the world
Mary Korpov: It is what it is
Pema Pera: (have to sneak out -- lunch coming up; nice talking with you all)
Mary Korpov: I'm neither content or discontent
jeena Cyberstar: people make it what it is
Eos Amaterasu: Bye, Pema
Mary Korpov: Bye
jeena Cyberstar: bye perma
Mary Korpov: I hope you can hold your lunch down
Pema Pera: bfn
jeena Cyberstar: haha
Hana Furlough: bye pema
Pema Pera: hold my lunch down?
Pema Pera: ?
Mary Korpov: You said it is coming up
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera: well
Pema Pera: c u !
Eos Amaterasu: Pema is in Japan, maybe having some excellent sushi
jeena Cyberstar: nice
Eos Amaterasu: So Mary, re love as emptiness, is the other there?
Mary Korpov: other what?
Eos Amaterasu: Other person, or object of love, or lover intertwined?
Mary Korpov: It's all one
Eos Amaterasu: One? All? Nothing?
Mary Korpov: IT's there, it's not there
Eos Amaterasu: Is that play?
Hana Furlough: back to work for me
Hana Furlough: have a wonderful night!
Eos Amaterasu: Ciao!
jeena Cyberstar: are you a politician? Mary
Mary Korpov: Bye
Mary Korpov: Don't know what you mean
jeena Cyberstar: see ya hana
Mary Korpov: Yes, I'm George Bush
jeena Cyberstar: haha
Mary Korpov: I'm not kidding
jeena Cyberstar: yes you are
Mary Korpov: ok, I am
jeena Cyberstar: so you take no position on nothing?
jeena Cyberstar: neither here nor there?
jeena Cyberstar: in the middle?
Mary Korpov: No position on nothing, as a double negative does that mean taking a position on something? I'm not sure how to respond
Mary Korpov: not middle, just isness
jeena Cyberstar: just...sorry didn't catch that last word
Mary Korpov: The idea of middle presupposes beginning and end
jeena Cyberstar: issues?
Mary Korpov: Isness
Eos Amaterasu: Madhyamika?
Mary Korpov: Don't know that word
Eos Amaterasu: not this, not that, not both this and that, not neither this nor that

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: it's a way to cut off any branch you happen to be sitting on
Mary Korpov: all and nothing
jeena Cyberstar: so no grey areas?
jeena Cyberstar: just black or white?
jeena Cyberstar: or black and white
Mary Korpov: or all grey areas
jeena Cyberstar: ok...so true openness
Mary Korpov: no black, not white, just isness
Eos Amaterasu notes that Play as Being bell suggests 90 secs of silence
Mary Korpov: shhhhhh
Eos Amaterasu: How did that feel (a few secs of silence?)
jeena Cyberstar: felt good
Mary Korpov: felt silent
jeena Cyberstar: :)
jeena Cyberstar: haha
Mary Korpov: fan spinning
Eos Amaterasu: We're normally so fast
jeena Cyberstar: mary...do you feel things?
jeena Cyberstar: or think
Mary Korpov: if you touch me I feel
jeena Cyberstar: ok. ok
jeena Cyberstar: haha
Mary Korpov: What do you mean?
jeena Cyberstar: that's what i'm trying figure out
Mary Korpov: you and I are the same thing, I feel what you feel
Mary Korpov: but feeling, as in emotions, is a form of clinging, a form of lust
Mary Korpov: clinging
jeena Cyberstar nods
Mary Korpov: I'm not enlightened, so I cling sometimes
jeena Cyberstar: it happens
Mary Korpov: it is
Mary Korpov: but I don't worry about it
Mary Korpov: emotions ebb and flow. I don't fight them, I don't covet them, they just are
jeena Cyberstar: so do you experience a lot of disappointment in love relationships?
Mary Korpov: no
jeena Cyberstar: well sounds like a good way to be then
Mary Korpov: neither good nor bad, just isness
jeena Cyberstar: i see your point now
Mary Korpov: I don't really feel dissapointment about anything
jeena Cyberstar: is that the honest truth?
Mary Korpov: To be dissapointed is to cling, to worry about being dissapointed is to cling to the concern about dissapointment, so when I cling I don't worry about clinging and I'm not dissapointed
jeena Cyberstar: ok...do you experience hurt?
Mary Korpov: If you hit me
jeena Cyberstar: heartache?
Mary Korpov: I experience anything anyone else does, I just try not to cling to it
jeena Cyberstar: i'm trying to get away from the semantics of the words and get to the gist
jeena Cyberstar: i see
Eos Amaterasu: There's a paradox in trying not to cling, is there not?
Mary Korpov: Same goes for physical hurt.
jeena Cyberstar: so not writing love songs for you? lol
Mary Korpov: You bet there is. So the best thing is to not try not to cling, just let it go
Mary Korpov: love songs are boring
Eos Amaterasu: So you can afford to freely express?
Mary Korpov: It doesn't cost anything
Eos Amaterasu: And feel?
Mary Korpov: feeling is clinging
Eos Amaterasu: And be vulnerable?
Mary Korpov: vulnerable to what?
Eos Amaterasu: And be impressed by a butterfly?
jeena Cyberstar: to someone you have "feelings" for
Mary Korpov: it's all one thing, no harm can come
Eos Amaterasu: Vulnerable to the phenomenal world?
Mary Korpov: I am the buttefly
Eos Amaterasu: Indeed
jeena Cyberstar: that's deep
Eos Amaterasu: so if no harm can come, there's nothing to worry about
Mary Korpov: right
Eos Amaterasu: So you can enjoy yourself?
Eos Amaterasu: (in moderation :-)
Mary Korpov: I just am
Mary Korpov: I don't think about enjoyment really
Mary Korpov: Remember, I'm blonde
jeena Cyberstar: ohhhhhhhh that's bad lol

--BELL--

Richboycool Aries walks by, emanating balls of flames
Richboycool Aries: why dont u allow cars?
jeena Cyberstar: seems like there should be an exception to talk to new comers while the timer is on..lol
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, there's always IM
Mary Korpov: The trees are watching
jeena Cyberstar: lol
Mary Korpov: Sorry if I sound like an oddball. I've spent many years thinking and finally realized that thinking is the problem
Eos Amaterasu: Mo matter, never mind :-)
jeena Cyberstar: no apology necessary...and really?
Mary Korpov: no mind
Mary Korpov: Yes, really
jeena Cyberstar: please explain further...
Mary Korpov: Thinking leads to clinging; emptying the mind allows for nonclinging. Back to the purpose of meditation. Meditation is a way to stop thinking; it can become permanent.
Mary Korpov: It is a technique to end clinging/thinking
jeena Cyberstar: aww i see
Mary Korpov: a means to achieve absolute dumb-blondeness
Eos Amaterasu: Hmm... things always come up
Mary Korpov: only if you let them
Eos Amaterasu: how can you prevent them?
Eos Amaterasu: and why would you?
Mary Korpov: you can't prevent them, but you can prevent them from controlling you
jeena Cyberstar: i really don't subscribe to the dumb blond stuff...i happen to know a lot of smart blonds
Mary Korpov: ok
Eos Amaterasu: ditto with thoughts
Eos Amaterasu: emotions
Mary Korpov: yes
Eos Amaterasu: relationships
Mary Korpov: Relationship is an odd idea. It presumes a subject/object distinction. If all is one, then there are no relationships
Eos Amaterasu: mabye all is deeply intertwingled
Mary Korpov: or maybe it is just one thing
Eos Amaterasu: not so sure about "all is one"
Mary Korpov: how so
Eos Amaterasu: things are , or seem to be, deeply interdependent
Eos Amaterasu: and they each have their precise details
Mary Korpov: Interdependence assumes that there is real differentiation
Eos Amaterasu: as well as inherent lack of permanence and solidity
Mary Korpov: What does infinity mean?
Eos Amaterasu: we live in autopoietic differentiation
Mary Korpov: we imagine differentiation
Eos Amaterasu: imagine - that's a loaded word!
Mary Korpov: invent
Eos Amaterasu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopoiesis
Mary Korpov: My basic belief is that infinity is real, but when we talk about infinity we finitize it. If infinity is real, then nothing has any boundaries--there are no boundaries, just invented divisions that appear as boundaries to us
Eos Amaterasu: If by infinity you mean the "to see infinity in a grain of sand", I'm with you
Mary Korpov: no, I mean, no beginning, no end, no up no down, no left, no right, no in, no out, no meaning, just is
Eos Amaterasu: Our sense perceptions allow us access to "infinity" (same as Being?)

--BELL--

Mary Korpov: Again, objectifying. We don't "Access" infinity, we are infinity
Mary Korpov: When you talk about accessing it, you presuppose it is something other than you, you finitize it
Eos Amaterasu: I mean that we can find infinity in this pool, in the sound of the bird, etc
Eos Amaterasu: It's not separate from manifestation
Mary Korpov: you can't find it, you are it
Eos Amaterasu: true!
Mary Korpov: If you look, it isn't there to be found; if you don't look it is everywhere and can't be avoided
Eos Amaterasu: blondes are lipstick on shunyata, if I can modify a famous line
Eos Amaterasu: (anne waldman)
Mary Korpov: Not sure what shunyata is, but blondes and lipstick certianly go together
jeena Cyberstar: lol
Eos Amaterasu: shunya: empty (but same root as swollen); ta: anything can happen
Mary Korpov: mine is strawberry
Eos Amaterasu: strawberry lipstick?
Mary Korpov: yes
Mary Korpov: the color, not the flavour
Eos Amaterasu: we still choose to adorn emptiness/fullness; what we can't find, what is everywhere
Mary Korpov: alas, we do
Eos Amaterasu: but that's part of the self-expressiveness
Mary Korpov: self-expressiveness is the anathema of no-self
Mary Korpov: I must go. It's late in my neck of the nothingness
Eos Amaterasu: there's the somewhat adolescent self-expressiveness/rebellion you alluded to earlier
Eos Amaterasu: Ditto here, see you here again!
Mary Korpov: yes--I don't rebel anymore, just live
Mary Korpov: Good night
Eos Amaterasu: Nothing to talk about, so we can relax!
jeena Cyberstar: goodnight mary...nice chatting
jeena Cyberstar: darn i'm slow
jeena Cyberstar: haha
Eos Amaterasu: How so?
jeena Cyberstar: she left fast
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Toda
jeena Cyberstar: hi toda :) you missed great conversation with the group seems to have ended now
Eos Amaterasu: It's also quite late here.... half past nothing :-)
Eos Amaterasu: Have you been here before, Toda (apologies for asking)?
jeena Cyberstar: so is it over? do you normally have a specific time when everyone comes on?
Eos Amaterasu: 1 am, 7 am, 1 pm, 6 pm Second Life time
jeena Cyberstar: i just come randomly sometimes nobody here..ok good to know
jeena Cyberstar: well great chatting!
jeena Cyberstar: have a good night
Eos Amaterasu: Good night, Jeena