2009.07.05 07:00 - We Are More Than We Think We Are

The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

I arrived early as so sat for a bit before Pema arrived a few minutes after the hour. For a while it was just the two of us but we eventually were joined by Yakuzza, Storm, Sophia, Wol, SophiaLauren, Avastu and Eliza for a rigorous discussion about seeing Being as a reesource.

Adams Rubble: Hello Pema :)
Pema Pera: Hi Adams!
Adams Rubble: It is very quiet in the pavilion this morning :)
Adams Rubble: up to now. hehe
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera thinking about various loud noises or dances or rockets he could produce . . . .
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: if only Moon were here . . . .
Adams Rubble: I was thinking the same thought
Adams Rubble: We left the siren at the other paviulion
Pema Pera: :-)
Adams Rubble: (thank goodness)
Adams Rubble: hehe
Pema Pera: (same thought)
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: Is there anything particular you'd like to discuss, Adams?

At Pema's invitation I lead up to a question about Being and resource

Adams Rubble: I am not sure it "discussable"
Adams Rubble: but this morning I woke up thinking of my "vision" of being rocked
Adams Rubble: in association with seeing Being as a resource
Adams Rubble: that there is a connection
Adams Rubble: in seeing ourselves as part of a bigger picrture
Pema Pera: for sure, yes!
Adams Rubble: When I woke up I felt that I was close to understanding seeing Being as a resource
Pema Pera: can you tell me a bit more?
Adams Rubble: well the thought of the "vision" is what followed (or preceded)
Adams Rubble: The thoughts were conneected
Pema Pera: Being has to be seen/used as a Resource, to have any meaning at all -- even though the words to describe that are limited and seemingly paradoxical
Pema Pera: I think I've mentioned that I like the word "seen" better than "used" but in first approximation both are fine -- and neither is precise :-)

OK, but what about the "easy" part

Adams Rubble: I was interested that the other day you said it was so easy
Pema Pera: from Being's point of view all is Being, so there is no question of using or even the notion of a resource
Adams Rubble: which means I am circling around the understanding
Pema Pera: but from our more limited perspective, if Being cannot be approached as a resource, it is meaningless and remains abstract
Pema Pera: yes, it is so easy that it is hard to accept that it is so easy !!!
Adams Rubble: Let me ask a question....

Pema sends me to a couple of sessions as examples. We stop to greet new arrivals and it is a while until we find out what Paradise actually said

Pema Pera: btw, just today I read the session of two days ago 1 pm: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...ce_and_Stories
Adams Rubble: My only clue is having used God as a resource
Adams Rubble nods
Pema Pera: I was moved by your description to Sophia about this point -- sorry, yes?
Adams Rubble: that is relevant :)
Pema Pera: Also, as for the "easy" you might want to look at yesterday evening's chat log: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...00_-_Nasruddin
Pema Pera: just after "Paradise brought up a great topic." relatively early on in the log
Adams Rubble looks
sophia Placebo: greetibgs
Pema Pera: but please continue with "only clue is having used God as a resource"
Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
sophia Placebo: greetings*
sophia Placebo: hello sorm
Adams Rubble: Hello Sophia, Storm and Yakuzza
Pema Pera: We just picked up the same topic that you and Adams talked about two days ago, God/Being as a resource
Pema Pera: Hi Storm and hi Yak!
Storm Nordwind: Hello everyone
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Adams Rubble: Hello WSol :)
sophia Placebo: hi yak
Pema Pera: and hi Wol!
Wol Euler: hello adams, pema, storm, yak, sophia

We start again with the "easy" question but I ask what is the difference between seeing God as a resource and seeing Being as a resource

Adams Rubble: we were just getting to the easy part :)
sophia Placebo: yes i remmber asking adams "resorce of what"?
sophia Placebo: hi wal
Pema Pera: hahaha, yes . . . please continue, Adams!
sophia Placebo: Wol*
Adams Rubble: well I am asking (hehe) I haven't found it so easy to figure this out
Adams Rubble: how I can take my understanding of God as a resource and apply it to Being as a resource
Adams Rubble: I was going to ask what is the difference?

Pema asks me to descrive How I used to see God as a resource

Pema Pera: can you say more about the former? Your understanding of God as a resource?
Pema Pera: Hi SophiaSharon!
Adams Rubble: Hello Sophia :)
Wol Euler: hello sophiasharon
sophia Placebo waves
sophia Placebo: hi sophia :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone thanks for the hellos

As I recall my experience it is clear that "weaknesses" are part of it

Adams Rubble: well, I felt that God had a plan for me
Adams Rubble: that He would guide me
Adams Rubble: the best part was that I felt at peace
Adams Rubble: that I did not have to depend on my own weaknesses
Adams Rubble: that I could act despite them
Adams Rubble: be more than I could just by depending on my own poor skills
Adams Rubble: transcend my weaknesses
Pema Pera: all of that can carry over easily to viewing Being as a resource, even though the language would be somewhat different

Storm asks whether I see myself separate from God and I stop to think about it

Storm Nordwind: In order for that to work, Adams, do you feel the need to stay separate from God so that there is a "guide" and a "guided"? If so would that be different to Being?
Adams Rubble: Interesting point Storm
Adams Rubble: I'd have to think about that

Pema notices that my use of "plan" is referring to a previous conversation in which I talked about a "calling"

Pema Pera: what would be a "calling" or a "plan" in terms of a more personal image of God, could be seen as "the natural next step" at each given time, in a less personal-God approach, as in Taoism for example, or in PaB
Pema Pera: yes, similar to Storm's point

Pema reveals Paradise's comment which is right on target to what we are discussing. It is followed by Eos quoting the Beattles and Eliza noting it is "easy"

Pema Pera: I found it fascinating that Paradise brought up a very similar point yesterday evening in http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...00_-_Nasruddin
Pema Pera: Paradise Tennant: but in each and every moment we experience .. there is always a sense of whatever is the situation .. this is what should be :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: Paradise Tennant: we so often fight .. or want to change what is .. instead of accepting that what ever is ..could not be otherwise .. that is not to say you do not plan or try to improve things just focus on the now and enjoy it for all it is .. and really all you ever have :)
Adams Rubble: yes, that is VERY close
Pema Pera: and then Eos quoted the Beatles: Eos Amaterasu: "Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be."
Pema Pera: and Eliza continued the quote: Eliza Madrigal: Its easy... lalala
Pema Pera: so we are back to the "easy" Adams!
Adams Rubble: :)))
Wol Euler: :)

Storm makes a distinction between things being easy when they are going well and the times when when they aren't and I relate that to my memory of using God as a resource

Storm Nordwind: It's easy provided things are going OK. I suspect it's rather hard when times are difficult!
Adams Rubble: On one level
Storm Nordwind: Though of course "difficult" may be an entirely subject term, and something you can change
SophiaSharon Larnia: I feel that these weaknesses are our vulnerablities, not that they make us weak, they make us individual, I feel that we are all given everything we need as a part of being
Pema Pera: harder perhaps at first -- but given the alternative of having to face impossible problems, it's much easier to make that leap -- but yes, it does require practice and familiarity, something PaB hopefully can help prepare us for
Pema Pera: great point, SophiaSharon!
Adams Rubble: It is when things are difficult that we know we need more than our own poor skills
SophiaSharon Larnia: we need others perhaps
Adams Rubble: Hello Avastu
Pema Pera: Good to see you again, Avastu!
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Avastu

There is a break a 90 second break and I begin to see where I am hung up with what it is that limits our actions. We are not inherently weak but are limited by what how we think defines ourselves, by our identities.

Adams Rubble: Let me amend my last sentence
Storm Nordwind waves
sophia Placebo: hi avastu
Wol Euler: hello avastu
Adams Rubble: It is when things are difficult we need to see past our identities
Pema Pera: yes, that feels more like going to the core, Adams!
Storm Nordwind nods
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)

Not poor and useless creatures...

Pema Pera: considering ourselves poor and useless can help to some extent but has the danger of becoming a passive servant of God
Wol Euler: nods
Wol Euler: think rather of Milton in his blindness
Pema Pera: considering ourselves as far more than what we thought we are is more real emancipation
Adams Rubble: High fives all around (giggles)

OK, I got a little giddy after realizing where limitations come from

SophiaSharon Larnia agrees
Pema Pera: in Christianity "we are all God's children" -- a very powerful reminder that we are not just some useless critter somewhere in a corner of the Universe . . . .

We consider how islam views the relationships between Allah and human beings

Pema Pera: Sophia, does Islam have a similar perspective, of us as God's children?
sophia Placebo: no
sophia Placebo: islam consider humas as creatures
sophia Placebo: most beloved but creatures
Pema Pera: but Sufis seem to have a somewhat different angle, if I understood you right, the other day?
sophia Placebo: sufis have the oneness or unity of creation with creator
sophia Placebo: in which the consider allah as the being
sophia Placebo: alwojoud
sophia Placebo: rest of muslims dont
sophia Placebo: they consider allah as the founder or creator of beings
Pema Pera: Sufis may be closest to the way I understand "Play as Being", but at the same time, I recognize many resonances in what you have said in various sessions, too
Pema Pera: Do other muslims tolerate the views of Sufis? If they are so different, does that not cause friction?
sophia Placebo: in books it is discussed
sophia Placebo: maybe in forums
sophia Placebo: these arent new
SophiaSharon Larnia: I understood this to be quite fierce
Adams Rubble: Hello Eliza
Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
sophia Placebo: hi eliza
Adams Rubble has been quietly thinking this out
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hello everyone :)

Trying to ask where Being comes into this I sidetrack us by introducing "unworthiness"

Adams Rubble: and does not understand how Being comes into the picture
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Adams Rubble: if I am realizing I am more than the limitations of my identities
Adams Rubble: which is what God did for me although with the cost of me seeing myself as another identity, i.e a poor worthless creature, unworthy of the sight of God
Adams Rubble: in the sight of God
sophia Placebo: one shouln't be weak though
sophia Placebo: nor sleep walker
sophia Placebo: nor like hypnotized
Wol Euler: hello eliza
sophia Placebo: you feel weak and poor in front of God cause he who gave you all the powers you have , to thank him for these is to show it to use it and not to abuse it or underestimate it
Wol Euler: where does "unworthy" come from, Adams?
Adams Rubble: The first Adam (and Eve) (hehe)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Hi Wol :)
Eliza Madrigal listening
Adams Rubble: In Judaeo-Christian terms we are sinners and unworthy

Storm makes an interesting observation which we come back to much later

Storm Nordwind is thinking back to his years as a Heathen, and remembering that Heathen gods rather prefered if you stood up to them rather than supplicate before them. That way drawing on them as resources was like an adult-to-adult conversation
Wol Euler has always been very uncomfortable with that idea.
Adams Rubble: we are looking past that this morning Wol
Adams Rubble: that instead of being burdened with feeling we are unworthy
Adams Rubble: we are burdened with our identities of being limited
Pema Pera: the "sin" angle in Christianity may be just one particular trap that many European Christian groups have falling into . . . it may not be an essential part of Christianity as such.
Pema Pera: how about this angle: if a child forgets being a child of his parents, he may see himself as utterly unworthy, when seeing his faults -- but when remembering to be a child, that then changes everything -- does that help?
Adams Rubble: in either case we are capable of much more than we think we are
Pema Pera: (us as children of God vs. sinners)
Pema Pera: I also have to think back to Geo's much milder view of "sin"
Adams Rubble: sorry I have gotten us on to a side track

I ask again about Being and Pema notes "we are more than we think we are" and this is the "easy" part

Adams Rubble: how does Being help us to see we are capable of more than we think we are???
Adams Rubble: or I am I seeing it wrong?
Pema Pera: we are more than we think we are
Pema Pera: that's the most basic point
Storm Nordwind: Being is something you can come to see as having no separation with. If that happens, what else would there be to be? :)
Adams Rubble: is that the easy part Pema?
Pema Pera: what we think we are turns out to be a bunch of mistaken identifications -- roles we have
Pema Pera: if we drop what we have we can begin to see what we are
Pema Pera: and yes, that is "easy" in the sense of considering it to be "difficult" makes it impossible
Pema Pera: "difficult" points to a procedure, something to do
Pema Pera: but there is nothing to do, doing/changing you into something more wonderful than you already are is impossible, more than just difficult
Adams Rubble continues to excell at that part...making it into a procedure
Pema Pera: so just letting go, that's the "easy" part
Pema Pera: as soon as we stop protesting and struggling :-)
Pema Pera: Avastu considers it to be so easy, that there is hardly any need to talk about it -- am I right, Avastu?
Avastu Maruti smiles
Pema Pera: :)
Wol Euler: :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles

Eliza and I make note fo things said earlier

Eliza Madrigal is still contemplating Adams typo of earlier "being worthy of the sight of God"
Eliza Madrigal: Isn't that what it is... beyond less/more...beyond trying?
Adams Rubble still contemplating Storm's statement about hethen gods liing to be stood up to
Adams Rubble: heathen gods liking
Pema Pera: there is also the old testament story of strugling with an angel . . . .
Wol Euler: mmhmm
SophiaSharon Larnia: this is a feeling I have experienced, like the world turns on that axis.

Here we sat quietly for a while and Wol decides to shake us up

Wol Euler: onigokko
sophia Placebo: lol
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
Wol Euler: stop
Wol Euler: just making sure we were all still awake.
Pema Pera: some of us indeed turned on an axis!
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: heheh
Eliza Madrigal: :)
sophia Placebo: :)
Pema Pera: and yes, beyond trying . . . .
Pema Pera: well, after that exertion, I think I'll go to bed -- it's past midnight here
Adams Rubble: good night Pema :)
Eliza Madrigal: Night Pema
Pema Pera: thanks for the wonderful conversations!
sophia Placebo: goodnight
SophiaSharon Larnia: night Pema!
Storm Nordwind: Sleep well :)
Pema Pera: good day everyone :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: night pema
Wol Euler: bye pema. take care

Turning on the axis....

Eliza Madrigal: Sophia do you mean that everything spins from a kind of center... ? Don't want to get caught up in the outer spinning but stay in the midst, so to speak?
Eliza Madrigal: SophiaSharon...sorry :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: no, i meant it in the sense that where I go forward from that point, depends on the insight that have received from the experience, like a crossroad
Eliza Madrigal: ahhh :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: i have learned also that this is putting heavy pressure on myself, that is not necessary
SophiaSharon Larnia: i have interpreted this an interpretation of light and darkness, although this is different for everyone
SophiaSharon Larnia: (soory repeated myself)

Hell and Alabama

Yakuzza Lethecus: lol, now that it´s nearly at the end and it wasn´t really on topic of god´s children but it´s about how many are going to hell :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: More than 1.86 million people in Alabama, 46.1% of the state's population, will be damned to hell if they don't have a born-again experience professing Jesus Christ as their savior, according to a report by Southern Baptist researchers."
Yakuzza Lethecus: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/...maths.research
Yakuzza Lethecus: i just saw that article today :P
SophiaSharon Larnia: a bit of fear with your coffee :)
Wol Euler sighs and shakes her head.
Yakuzza Lethecus: and i had to think about it again when it was about god´s children
Wol Euler wonders whether they might be saved by moving to Georgia.
Storm Nordwind laughs
Adams Rubble: Hell is of our own making and it seems that thought is in that category
Avastu Maruti: hahaha
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
Wol Euler nods to Adams
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
sophia Placebo wonders what was the purpose of that study
Wol Euler: maybe something else is going on in Alabama that people need to be distracted from?
Wol Euler: sorry, that was unnecessarily cynical.
Storm Nordwind: Maybe church funds are getting low
Adams Rubble giggles
sophia Placebo: :)
sophia Placebo: money money
sophia Placebo: the new earth axis
Wol Euler: both new and ancient ...
sophia Placebo: yes
Wol Euler: the koran says "don't envy the rich man, didn't Allah give him his wealth? Who are you to disagree?"
Wol Euler: (not quite in those words :)

A visitor sits for a minute or two and gets up and leaves us

Wol Euler: ah well :)
Adams Rubble: :)
sophia Placebo: see you later , i enjoyed the chat and the silence
Eliza Madrigal: :) Bye for now Sophia
Wol Euler: bye sophia, take care
Avastu Maruti: love to you my friends
Adams Rubble: bye Sophia and Avastu
Eliza Madrigal: love to you Avastu
Wol Euler: bye avastu, enjoy the day
Avastu Maruti: off to Alabama - sounds like fun there
Adams Rubble: :)
Wol Euler: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: I am off too, take care everyone :)
Adams Rubble: Bye Sophia :)
Storm Nordwind waves

Fear of God

Eliza Madrigal was often terrified of god as a child...coincidentally raised baptist by very friendly ladies serving lemon cookies ...strange thing to reconcile
Wol Euler: heh
Eliza Madrigal: so much talk about hell, until one finally says "Well let me see for myself"
Storm Nordwind: Maybe it was something in the lemon? ;)
Wol Euler: yeah
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Adams Rubble: :)
Storm Nordwind slips away quietly during the silence
Wol Euler: bye storm, take care
Storm Nordwind waves
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Storm
Adams Rubble: bye Storm :)
Wol Euler: oh, Eliza, I just noticed your wisteria-coloured hair :) quite lovely.
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Wol... and I mean to tell you how cute you look too :)
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: ty
Adams Rubble: wisteria colored is a loevely way to put it :)
Wol Euler smiles
Eliza Madrigal: I've been playing quite a bit...look will show you something...heheh
Wol Euler: O.O
Eliza Madrigal: Of course the sweater throws it off,...hhehe
Adams Rubble: Eliza, you are like a heavenly being in a Chinese Buddhist painting :)
Wol Euler: wow
Eliza Madrigal likes that idea must admit
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: things are often frightening from the outside...like god
Eliza Madrigal: from the inside, not so much so :)
Adams Rubble: Hmm. I never had the experience of finding God frightening
Eliza Madrigal: Ah... some traditions take 'the fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom' more literally than others
Adams Rubble: I remember going to a Bible discussion group in HS
Adams Rubble: I was very devout at the time and very active in youth organizations
Adams Rubble: and all the people in the group started praying for me to be saved
Adams Rubble: I dound THAT frightening
Wol Euler boggles.
Adams Rubble: of course, I stayed far away from them after that
Wol Euler: too right.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: Many ideas of parenting are based in the same outlook... to honor one's father=fearing his strength, etc
Adams Rubble: Now that is a different story; I was firghtened by by my father(giggles)
Wol Euler: brb

I  move to fill in a seat and Yakuzza and Eliza move too

Adams Rubble notes the music has stopped and we all must retain our seats now :)
Eliza Madrigal: hah
Yakuzza Lethecus: where are you from adams ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: which state
Yakuzza Lethecus: still in the bible belt ?
Adams Rubble: No NJ. hehe
Adams Rubble: but that was fuirther south
Adams Rubble: in Philadelphia. hehe
Yakuzza Lethecus: pennsylvania isn´t really in the bible belt i guess
Adams Rubble: It did keep its blue laws longer than most states
Yakuzza Lethecus: but there are the amish :D
Adams Rubble: well, they're a minority
Eliza Madrigal smells cinnamon rolls
Adams Rubble: and keep mostyly to themselves
Yakuzza Lethecus: cinnamon rolls ?
Adams Rubble: they are great bakers
Eliza Madrigal: Amish=cinnamon rolls to me :)
Adams Rubble: shufly pie
Adams Rubble: scrapple
Eliza Madrigal: the most exquisite tomatoes....
Adams Rubble: Hey!
Adams Rubble: Jersey is know for its tomatoes :)
Adams Rubble: known
Eliza Madrigal: huge... slice them up and slowly cook in low temps...olive oil and garlic...
Eliza Madrigal: hehe... Well, here our store tomatoes are terrible... have no taste.
Adams Rubble: Yes, here too
Eliza Madrigal: As soon as the Amish arrive from Penn I rush to greet them :)
Adams Rubble: like red wet cardboard
Yakuzza Lethecus: in Germany it isn´t better :P
Wol Euler: back
Eliza Madrigal: such a simple thing... but those little things dulled down have a cumulative effect
Wol Euler: true, very true.
Adams Rubble: I must go now. Everyone have a good day :)
Eliza Madrigal: WB Wol
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Adams
Wol Euler: bye adans, enjoy the day
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye adams
Eliza Madrigal has so much she feels she 'should' be doing that she finds herself sitting here endlessly
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: I know that feeling, like a deer inthe headlights
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Eliza Madrigal: Nice company though... clarifying company :)
Wol Euler: I have soooooo much to do before my holiday (thursday)

Yakuzza and Eliza then discuss Wol's travel plans with Wol