2009.07.05 13:00 - Symmetry, choice and beyond

The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

This interesting discussion begins with evidence of my not being 'up to date' with all the guardians, and this began the thread of keeping up amidst the busyness we all experience, and the multiple threads of communication many of us have going. The threads further meandered into the many strands of global communication, eg Twitter, the possible evolving authority structures given this near-global instant communication, the problems, paradoxes regarding choice, views about the global trends (eg 'flat' vs spikey) and beyond. (various websites cited ).

  When I arrived Eliza was there and we were soon joined by Qt.

Maxine Walden: helllo, Qt, care to join us?
Qt Core: hi Eliza, Maxine
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Maxine, Qt
Maxine Walden: Qt. not sure we have met, have you been coming to these play as being meetings?
Qt Core: yes, many times, and i'm a guardian too (even if i don't have a slot)
Maxine Walden: I am very sorry; did not mean to slight you, just have not been staying aware of some of the folks ...
Qt Core: np, i didn't met many others guardian, time zone issues don't help ;-)
Maxine Walden: yes, so many different times/zones which make it difficult to meet everyone...
Qt Core: publishing the chat logs helps about that and about busy life too
Maxine Walden: yes, it does...
Wol Euler: hello maxine, qt, eliza
Maxine Walden: hi, Wol
Qt Core: hi Wol
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol
Maxine Walden: We were talking about keeping up with everyone in PaB, stemming from my not being familiar with Qt as a guardian
Wol Euler: heheh, tricky
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila :)
Qt Core: (i don't even use the title a lot.... well almost never)
Maxine Walden: and I begwn to wonder about the topic of divergence/convergence...so many trajectories
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Wol Euler: (I seem to have put my hand down in sommething sticky, brb)
Qt Core: hi Pila
Maxine Walden: hi, Pila
Eliza Madrigal: intersting idea Maxine
Maxine Walden: we each have such busy lives and come from such diverse backgrounds, time zones, etc. It is quite something that we come togehter as much as we do...and then there is my just-now example of not being so aware of Qt as an example of that coming together not always being steadfast
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick
Pila Mulligan: hi Mick
Maxine Walden: hi, Mick,
Qt Core: hi mick
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Eliza,Pila,Maxine ,Qt
Mickorod Renard: Hi Wol
Wol Euler: back
Wol Euler: hello mick, pila
Pila Mulligan: wb
Qt Core: just thinking about how many way we may "tag" yourself and all the universe around us and how many groups and subgroups we can make is mind blowing
Qt Core: ourselves
Maxine Walden: agree, Qt...
Eliza Madrigal: It seems to be the wave...people trying to stay in contact with as many people as possible at a time.. ala twitter, facebook, etc. For me this pace and depth is mostly comfortable
Maxine Walden: just aware during this pause of Eliza's mention, the pace of
Maxine Walden: being so in touch with others...and maybe
Maxine Walden: behind that 'pace' at least for some of us
Qt Core: being not very social in rl whiy i should i be so social in sl (at large) a little more, ok, but twitter is really too much
Maxine Walden: might be the anxiety of being absent-minded as I was with Qt just now
Pila Mulligan: it has been only a century or so since the industrial revolution scattered us from more cohesive extended families and real in-touch communities, and during that time our nature surely missed the previous well-established close contact with many people, so now Twitter fills in for osme of what was missing
Pila Mulligan: but we are no doubt doingit at a supersonic pace
Eliza Madrigal: http://www.theonion.com/content/news...ator_on_iran_i
Qt Core: i love/hate the onion, i usually come to it via stumbleupon and before noticing it is the onion i get very angry for what i read... they are very good :-)

I have just crashed and returned so missed a bit of the previous chat and folks fill me in.

Wol Euler: wb maxine
Maxine Walden: thanks, talk about coming and going...
Wol Euler: :)
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Maxine Walden: you know, I don't know what the onion is...may be revealing...
Pila Mulligan: it is irony, a joke
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tarmel!
Maxine Walden: thanks Pila
Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
Maxine Walden: hi, Tarmel
Eliza Madrigal: This kind of Onion article rings so close...surely not all of them do :)
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Everyone!
Qt Core: a great ironic "news" website
Pila Mulligan: they write humorous but fake news stories
Maxine Walden: ah...
Pila Mulligan: such as : Greenpeace Decides Northern Spotted Owl 'Not Worth The Trouble Anymore'
Wol Euler: hello tarmel
Maxine Walden: I see, got it, I think...
Mickorod Renard: Hi Tarmel
Qt Core: hi tamel
Maxine Walden: dipping into the slightly cynical at times?
Qt Core: just a bit.... like everest bit
Pila Mulligan: earlier Eliza posted a link to this one: Twitter Creator On Iran: 'I Never Intended For Twitter To Be Useful'
Mickorod Renard: hi Ara
Pila Mulligan: hi arabella
Maxine Walden: hi Ara
Eliza Madrigal: I payed attention to Twitter during the election, and recently for Iran coverage a bit...not more than that though.
arabella Ella: hiya everyone
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Ara
Wol Euler: hello ara
Qt Core: hi ara
Eliza Madrigal: I heard about SL through Twitter during the election :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hiya Ara :)
Wol Euler: well done, ara, we are symmetrical again :)
Mickorod Renard: I never look at any of these things except sl
arabella Ella: :)
Maxine Walden: contemplative pause...?
Mickorod Renard: grin
Pila Mulligan: I was contemplating last weeks term 'herd-wired'
Qt Core: cam ADJUSTING PAUSE I THINK, TO SEE THE SINNETRY ;-)
Qt Core: ops, sorry
Pila Mulligan: :)
Maxine Walden: interesting association, Pila
Mickorod Renard: here we talk about the mob
Pila Mulligan: humans have a tribal nature
Mickorod Renard: I guess it would be mob wired
Maxine Walden: indeed, very basic...yes, mob-wired!
Maxine Walden: seems we have to work hard to overcome that herd/mob-wiring
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Pila Mulligan: and at the same time not fall into chaos, since the mob is now using porinted circuits
Pila Mulligan: somewhere between anarchy and what we have is a nice place
Pila Mulligan: maybe :)
Mickorod Renard: maybe it will have undercurrents like what happened in the uk in the late 1600's
Maxine Walden: oh, Mick?
Mickorod Renard: when printing became available to the mob
Mickorod Renard: I think politics had to be re-invented
Mickorod Renard: no longer could the ruling class pull the wool over the eyes of the masses
Wol Euler frowns
Maxine Walden: so everyman emerged as a force to be reckoned with?
Qt Core: direct democracy via the Net ?
Mickorod Renard: just thinking of the similarities
Mickorod Renard: world free information
Maxine Walden: giving the voice of the individual more potency, more sturdiness?
Mickorod Renard: I think the problem will be determining what is true and what is false now
Pila Mulligan: hi Adams
Wol Euler: hello adams
Qt Core: hi adams
arabella Ella: hiya Adama
Adams Dubrovna: hello everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adams :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Adams
Pila Mulligan: you made Wol happy Adams
Adams Dubrovna: ?
Pila Mulligan: seating now 3:3:3
Pila Mulligan: symmetry
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
arabella Ella: :)
Tarmel Udimo: well its certainly made us more global, and information is shared but I wonder whether the herd mentality has changed?
Mickorod Renard: I dont think that will ever change
Tarmel Udimo: do we still just read and engage with topics we like
Qt Core: i think not, maybe it is even worse as you have the monitor to hide behind
arabella Ella: sources of authority are in the process of changing i think
Tarmel Udimo: has it broadened our persepctives?
Mickorod Renard: how do u mean Ara?
arabella Ella: both broadened and narrowed our perspectives
arabella Ella: well today we take journalists to be super truth heros for example
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Eliza Madrigal nods
Adams Dubrovna: do we?
arabella Ella: like one of my theories at the moment
Tarmel Udimo: not me:)
arabella Ella: borrowed from thomas friedman and richard florida
arabella Ella: the world is both flat and the world is spiked
arabella Ella: flat- interconnected
arabella Ella: spiked - creative industries, creative clusters within one geo area
Tarmel Udimo: OK
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Gaya
Mickorod Renard: history repeats all the time,,I recon we will just see a change similar to that seen in the past
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Gaya
Wol Euler: hello gaya
Maxine Walden: hi, Gaya
Qt Core: hi gaya
arabella Ella: hiya gaya
Tarmel Udimo: Hi gaya
Maxine Walden: nice to see you
Gaya Ethaniel: Long time no see indeed Maxine :)
Maxine Walden: yes, :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya
Tarmel Udimo: that's interesting Ara, so a world of duality manifested in this theory
Adams Dubrovna: I personally know more people from all over the globe than I ever did before
Maxine Walden: hello, Shyama, care to join us?
Shyama Sheryffe: hi :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Shyama :)
Mickorod Renard: hi Shy
Adams Dubrovna: Hel;o again Shyama
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Shyama
Pila Mulligan: hi Shyama
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Shyama :)
arabella Ella: well I think that saying simply that the world is flat - all interconnected - although correct is a bit too much of a simplification
arabella Ella: and the same applies to Florida's The World is Spiked
Maxine Walden: how so, Ara?
arabella Ella: so I think we should look at things as overlapping and criss crossing not simply as dichotomies that never meet
Mickorod Renard: the world is flat insomuch as the universe is bent
Qt Core: nice topic but RL is calling, bye all
Pila Mulligan: bye Qt
arabella Ella: bye Qt
Maxine Walden: thanks for coming QT
Adams Dubrovna: bye Qt
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Qt
Mickorod Renard: bye qt
Tarmel Udimo: bye Qt
Tarmel Udimo: found this article, is this the one you referred to Ara: http://www.longtail.com/the_long_tai...d_florida.html
Maxine Walden: interweaving...as an interconnected web?
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Qt :)
arabella Ella: yes it is Tarmel
arabella Ella: altho i had not seen this in Wired before
Tarmel Udimo: opr perhaps this: http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/...of-spikes.html
arabella Ella: and the conclusions were my own
arabella Ella: thanks Tarmel those links are certainly very useful to me
Eliza Madrigal: We have greater access...but also a flood of information to filter...so the effect can be the same in that some will actually narrow their choices...news channels which tell one side, etc
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Maxine Walden: interesting, Eliza. Our human limits often seem to create a narrowing...
Maxine Walden: of perspective...
Eliza Madrigal: we can retreat to what is 'comfortable' perhaps
Maxine Walden: amidst the plethora, as if we cannot embrace it all
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: I do think we are more pourous in general though...must work harder to narrow
Mickorod Renard: sometime ago we discussed how choice is actually a problem for us
Wol Euler nods
Mickorod Renard: cant remember what we said
Tarmel Udimo: can we embrace it all? perhaps we feel we should with all that access, but our choices help us to limit things
Tarmel Udimo: to not be overwhelmed
Maxine Walden: was there anything about being plagued by doubt about what we choose? tyranny of doubt?
Tarmel Udimo: as long as we don't get stuck I guess:)
Wol Euler points to the word "should" in tarmel's sentence, and raises an eyebrow
arabella Ella: learning not to be overwhelmed is ... sounds like ... one of the new skills to be learnt for the 21 st century
Mickorod Renard: I think this is where the herd or mob comes in,,people look for guidance,,because the coice is too dificult
Pila Mulligan: I can't help thinking of General Motors and California, two icons of a (recent) former time -- when they were rich and diverse, before they became bankrupt -- now what will they become?
Pila Mulligan: what are thier choices?
Maxine Walden: good point, Ara, to remain aware of our human limits, perhaps?
Eliza Madrigal: agreed, Ara
arabella Ella: well about choice there is an excellent video by a psychologist on www.ted.com unfortunately i cannot recall the name
arabella Ella: and he says that when we have too much choice we just end of defaulting and not choosing at all
arabella Ella: this is related to marketing and for example supermarket selection
Mickorod Renard: yes,,i may have seen it
Eliza Madrigal: Ah...rather like the theory of happiness
Mickorod Renard: ahhh,for the simple life
arabella Ella: happiness?
Eliza Madrigal: You listen to a favorite piece of music... rate it a 10... then a second piece, rate it also a 10
Wol Euler: maybe Barry Schwarz, "the paradox of choice"? http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ba...of_choice.html
Maxine Walden: one point about too much choice is that we cannot hold many things in mind which require substantial thought...just get mind weary
Eliza Madrigal: but together at same time... not 10...not 5...
Adams Dubrovna: We have a simple life if we want
Adams Dubrovna: just have to grab it
Eliza Madrigal: the way we listen to the music is the thing, yes
Adams Dubrovna: or fall into it :)
arabella Ella: :)
arabella Ella: yes Wol that is it
arabella Ella: the paradox of choice
Tarmel Udimo: yes we feel we "should' be able to hold it all and make all the right choices but I don'tr think we can Wol
Tarmel Udimo: nods at Ara
arabella Ella: something else related which i just got hold of but which i hhave not yet had time to read is
Shyama Sheryffe: dont we choose what we feel unconsiouxly and ratinalize it afterwards
arabella Ella: malcolm gladwell's 'the outliers'
arabella Ella: has anyone here read that book yet?
Gaya Ethaniel: When there are lots of choices, there isn't much difference between them I think.
Eliza Madrigal: This idea I heard in an interview from an author writing about happiness...resonated with me how we give attention matters. A new skill indeed...perhaps mindfulness helps :)
Mickorod Renard: the coices we are alowed are given us by those who hold the power anyway,,I am sure its an illusion
arabella Ella: /nods to Eliza
Adams Dubrovna: no one has the power over what we are
Wol Euler: surely that is your own point, mick? that the twitterers and their readers take back that power
Wol Euler: by circumventing "official" mass distribution
arabella Ella: but Adams ... we live in communities with other people to who we are responsible ... is any one of us 100 percent autonomous?
Maxine Walden: This may be another area where awareness of our human limits can actually help us out, re the 'shoulds' about choice
Mickorod Renard: thats the general picture,,but how much choice is metred out on purpose
Adams Dubrovna: It is not about being autonomous
Adams Dubrovna: we just need to be what we are
Adams Dubrovna: the world is the same as it has always been
arabella Ella: ok i see ... and no one can control my thoughts :)
arabella Ella: (or so i hope)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Maxine Walden: Sorry to 'interrupt': About to go and I need to say that I am going to be away for the next 3 Sundays at this time, and so cannot be GOC. Perhaps someone could either send me the autologger or post the chatlog, which is so easy thanks to Wol and Fael.
Mickorod Renard: yes they do Ara
arabella Ella: (or can they?)
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: I would offer but I won't be here either :(
Maxine Walden: See you all in a few weeks...
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Maxine. Good to see you today :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Have fun Maxine :)
Mickorod Renard: bye Maxine
Wol Euler: bye maxine, take care, have a great time
Maxine Walden: bye all
arabella Ella: enjoy mazine
Adams Dubrovna: bye Maxine. have a good time away :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Maxine
Shyama Sheryffe: bye Maxine
Eliza Madrigal: I must go also
Adams Dubrovna: and me too
Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza
Adams Dubrovna: bye Eloiza and everyone :)
Mickorod Renard: bye Adams
Gaya Ethaniel: Same here :) Enjoy your day/night.
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everyone :)
Wol Euler: ara, somebody who offers you a choice between red and orange, and prevents you from noticing that green and blue exist too, is controlling your choices
Mickorod Renard: bye Gaya
Tarmel Udimo: bye all
Wol Euler: bye gaya, adams, eliza
Wol Euler: take care.
Shyama Sheryffe: bye Eliza and all
Pila Mulligan: bye
Mickorod Renard: bye Tarmel
arabella Ella nods to Wol
Wol Euler: tarmel, are you going?
Pila Mulligan: hi Fonz
Wol Euler: hello fef
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Fef
Pila Mulligan: Gandhi said (70 years ago) that social organization (i.e., government) should first deal with the necessities: assuring healthy food, clothes and clean housing for everyone, and fair pensions for retired people -- and if that was done then the rest of what was needed would follow naturally
Fefonz Quan: (Hi All)
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Fefonz
arabella Ella: hiya Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Pila, that means the US government is not a social organization...
Shyama Sheryffe: hi Fefonz
Wol Euler: many would not disagree, fef :)
Wol Euler: at least it wasn't during hte last 8 yrs.
Pila Mulligan: I'm not sure anyone has accomplished Gandhi's ideal yet
Pila Mulligan: maybe the shakers :)
arabella Ella: there was an interesting interview by Riz Khan on CNN today
arabella Ella: on Aid and Africa and whether Aid is good or bad for Africa
arabella Ella: as Aid allows governments to neglect necessities taken care of by aid agencies
Mickorod Renard: bye guys,,xx
Pila Mulligan: bye Mick
Tarmel Udimo: bye Mick
arabella Ella: bye Mick
Shyama Sheryffe: bye Mick
Wol Euler: ah, missed him.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Tarmel Udimo: be back in a sec
arabella Ella: i must go too
arabella Ella: bye everyone
Fefonz Quan: bye Ara
Wol Euler: bye ara, goodngiht and sleep well
Shyama Sheryffe: me too, nite all
Wol Euler: bye shyama, take care
Fefonz Quan: concerning Social organizations, it reminded me somehow, that the other day the issue of Ian Rand arose here (guess i mispell it)
Wol Euler: Ayn Rand? objectivism?
Fefonz Quan: yes, Ayn Rand. So i've read a little about her, and it turns out in the early seventies there was a tight group fo followers that she organized.
Fefonz Quan: discussing her philosophy etc.
Fefonz Quan: and one of the major (and most known today) participants was - Alan Grinspan, the previous FED Manager
Pila Mulligan: Ayn Rand ranks right up there with BF Skinner in my museum of misguided people
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Fefonz Quan: somehow i found that not so accidental. looks like a strait line between her views and the major causes for teh last crisis.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: not particularly compassionate
Fefonz Quan: particularly not actualy
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Pila Mulligan: hi Nymf
Wol Euler: hello nymf
Fefonz Quan: think i'll be on my way, didn't manage to get here earlier, and its good to se you even for a while.
Nymf Hathaway: sorry Pila :) good day everyone :)
Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
Pila Mulligan: np
Pila Mulligan: bye Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: bye Wol, Pila, Nemf
Fefonz Quan: Nymf
Nymf Hathaway: Bye Fefonz, hello Tarmel :)
Pila Mulligan: unless you are staying, even better :)
Fefonz Quan: Tarmel :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
Wol Euler: wb tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: back again, thought it was Stim's workshop
Pila Mulligan: :)
Tarmel Udimo: are they still going Pila?
Pila Mulligan: yes, Tarmel, and still interesting
Tarmel Udimo: great any transcripts
Tarmel Udimo: I have been out of touch for the last couple of weeks
Pila Mulligan: yes, on their wiki -- just a sec
Tarmel Udimo: Eliza mentioned something about starting up another one?
Pila Mulligan: well, there is a spin-off discussion group of some participants from Stim's workshop meeting now
Pila Mulligan: kind of a discussion of the discussion :)
Pila Mulligan: Gaya organized it
Tarmel Udimo: oh maybe that was the one she was mentioning and what's that?
Wol Euler: is that the Homework crew?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: transcripts: http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/4Transcripts
Tarmel Udimo: thanks Pila
Pila Mulligan: I went to the first one, but I was uncomfortable discussing Stim's topics without his gudiance there
Pila Mulligan: too easy to make mistakes or digress
Tarmel Udimo: nods understand, how does Stim feel about it?
Pila Mulligan: i don't know
Pila Mulligan: btw: Nymf's Science Circle July 2009 Presentation "Virtual World Using OpenSim" by Darkeagle Darkstone 1130am SLT Tuesday 7 July 2009
Pila Mulligan: Nymf: threedee, one of the PaB folks, has a company that has an Open SIm running full time
Tarmel Udimo: yes got it, will have to set the alarm for 4:30am:)
Pila Mulligan: place: ô€€€
Nymf Hathaway: woops Tarmel :(
Pila Mulligan: the URL of the place didnot paste :)
Nymf Hathaway: I have been on Darkeagles grid...but it will take a while untill I will be a citizen
Pila Mulligan: yes, just 8:30 am here :)
Pila Mulligan: what do they have there?
Pila Mulligan: on Darkeagles grid?
Nymf Hathaway: He gave his students the assignement to build and develp...and that shows... some are inspiraional but most experimental...a lot doesn't work as we know it in sl etc
Nymf Hathaway: develop
Nymf Hathaway: Maybe we are spoiled in here :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Nymf Hathaway: Which url didn't work Pila?
Pila Mulligan: I think Threedees is more aimed at commercial ends, but I amnot sure
Pila Mulligan: the Nture site, I tried to post where the presentation will be
Pila Mulligan: earlier in this caht
Nymf Hathaway: strange
Nymf Hathaway: I will correct it of course
Pila Mulligan: it is not an error in the note card, it was jst that in trying to cut it from the notecard to paste here, the paste did ont work -- the URL is probably fine :)
Nymf Hathaway: okay
Pila Mulligan: I'm going to see if I can take Nymf to meet Threedee, Tarmel and Wol
Pila Mulligan: bye bye for now
Nymf Hathaway: Needs to do some things before she logs off today, Tarmel & Wol have a nice time :)
Wol Euler: bye, take care. good luck!
Tarmel Udimo: bye
Wol Euler: you too, enjoy the rest ofhte day
Tarmel Udimo: bye Pila
Wol Euler: bye pila, take care
Wol Euler: bye tarmel, take care