2009.07.19 07:00 - Mary and Martha and Dream/Sleep Research

The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

I arrived first, a bit early, and sat for bit watching the fish and reading email until Fael arrived. Later Fael added a feature that shows when the bell rings and the 90 second pause begins

Adams Rubble: Hello Fael :)
Fael Illyar: Hello Adams :)
Adams Rubble: How are you on this fine day?
Adams Rubble: fine here anyway :)
Adams Rubble: and in SL
Fael Illyar: I'm well. It is quite a fine day in Finland too.
Fael Illyar: Sun is shining but not too hot
Adams Rubble: Your outfit really suits your avatar :)
Fael Illyar smiles.
Fael Illyar: I just chose parts that match well :)
Adams Rubble: it is very nice
Adams Rubble: very youthful looking :)

Eliza joins us

Adams Rubble: Good morning Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Morning :)
Eliza Madrigal yawns and stretches
Adams Rubble: :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Eliza :)

I begin with a reaction to the previous night session (7/18/09 19:00)

Adams Rubble: It was a good session last night
Adams Rubble: I had a dream that I saw some movie that pulled together my SL and RLs
Adams Rubble: I couldn't for the life of me remember what movie it was or figure out what movie would do that
Eliza Madrigal: love that
Adams Rubble: I think my dream was referring to last night's session
Adams Rubble: It is not posted yet Fael
Fael Illyar smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, in that it overlapped rl/sl discussions you might have?

Not quite that Eliza, but what it says about the way I live life in each of the worlds

Adams Rubble: but Pila and Pema were talking about living life on the superficial level

SL vs RL

Fael Illyar: SL is a part of RL ... if you ask me :)
Adams Rubble: yes, I can't argue that one :)
Adams Rubble: but still, I have different concerns in the two places
Adams Rubble: my superficial lives are different. hehe
Adams Rubble: but the spiritual life is the same
Fael Illyar: Yes :)

Explorations

Eliza Madrigal: What took me a minute is that I often go out of my way to develop 'superficial' interests... meaning no, I'm not really 'interested' in doing such and such, but I'm interested in connecting so
Eliza Madrigal: I become someone for a time, interested in that?
Adams Rubble: yes
Adams Rubble: explorations are superficial with a purpose
Eliza Madrigal: and then truly am, in a way...but it isn't that it sticks as something that is intrinsic, etc
Eliza Madrigal: yes

Picking Up superficiality

Fael Illyar: I seem to have some superficial interests ... I'm not sure how I choose them :)
Fael Illyar: some of them come and go, some stay
Adams Rubble: yes
Adams Rubble: we pick them up like magnets

Story of Christ at the House of Mary and Martha. In the story Christ admonshes Martha who complains about Mary sitting listening to Jesus while she does all the work preparing dinner. It is a story woth lots of gray and we have different opinions about what it means

Adams Rubble: I was thinking of Mary and Martha before I came this morning
Adams Rubble: hard to say what Martha was doing was superficial
Adams Rubble: but when the master is talking we need to loisten

SophiaSharon arrives

Adams Rubble: Hello Sophia :)
Adams Rubble: listen
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Sophia :)
Eliza Madrigal: A collaboration between Mary and Martha seems like a good thing
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sophia :))
Fael Illyar: Mary? Martha? who?
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: A Christian reference Fael :)
Adams Rubble: Story in the gospels

SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Adams, Eliza, Fael :)
Adams Rubble: Jessus came to their house
Fael Illyar: ok, Mary I can get, Martha not :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes i know that story
Adams Rubble: Martha was doing all the work preparing dinner, etc
Adams Rubble: is that superficial?
SophiaSharon Larnia: and Mary learning with the men (presumably)
Adams Rubble: but could not stop to listen
Fael Illyar: well,only superficial if you give no value to staying alive and well in this world :)
Adams Rubble: yes but maybe superficial when the master is talking
Adams Rubble: and she should be listening
Eliza Madrigal: Jesus said that Mary had chosen the more vital thing
--BELL--
Fael Illyar: but yes, there is an abundance of people who can and will take care of the food, even if Martha didn't.
Adams Rubble: maybe superficiality is a bit relative
Eliza Madrigal: Maybe, or perhaps the food might not have taken as long as Martha took with it...
Adams Rubble: :)

Fael misunderstands my placing a marker for the bell which I inadvertantly do too early. We go on discussing Mary and Martha

Fael Illyar: if you wish to care for the bell, then please do and be silent as it suggests :)
Adams Rubble: should have opened a can of beans
SophiaSharon Larnia: lol adams
Eliza Madrigal: I've known many people who were wonderful at 'doing' but they add on so many little non-negotiable things which are really preferences
Eliza Madrigal: and then get upset that others// don't see that these are extras
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Rubble: yes eliza
Eliza Madrigal: I suppose we all do that... but at least admit it...hehe
Adams Rubble: I guess the point is to see it
SophiaSharon Larnia: (feels dowdy next to your wonderful avis, will have to go shopping)
Eliza Madrigal: And after all, Mary was somehow able to feed herself well enough to be sitting there
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Fael Illyar: you look fine, Sophia :)
Adams Rubble: Oh no, Sophia. Your outfit is great and your hair to die for :)
SophiaSharon Larnia laughs
Eliza Madrigal: yes definitely
Fael Illyar: It's supposed to be You, not someone else :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: it is???
Fael Illyar: If it's not, then by all means, go shop :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: lol
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Fael Illyar: notice that "You" does not necessarily have anything to do with your RL looks :)

Fox who some of us had not met before enters next; we continue with Mary and Martha

Fael Illyar: Hello Fox :=
Adams Rubble: Hello Fox
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fox :)
Adams Rubble: Have you been here before Fox?
Fox Monacular: yeah, I've been a couple of times
Adams Rubble: Very nice to meet you :)
Fox Monacular: nice to meet you too:)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, nice to meet you Fox :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Ive heard this before in regards to Mary and Martha, that Martha was making a huge feast when sandwiched wouldve done just as well, never knew where they got that from
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Fox
Adams Rubble: :)
Fox Monacular: Hi Sophia
Adams Rubble: We can't deny we need to eat
SophiaSharon Larnia: a liberal interpretation, based on the cultures of the times perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I think the thing is, she was busy on the peripheral things leaving no time perhaps, and then also judging Mary
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
Fael Illyar: Ah yes, it's not about that she made food. It's about the amount of effort she put into that compared to what Mary did.
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
Adams Rubble: But an interesting parable when we consider living on a superficial level

Eliza makes an interesting point; we can be rewarded for excelling in our superficial roles. We can get possible feedback that might make it harder for us to see our choices might be superficial

Eliza Madrigal: yes, and in day to day life, Martha was more praised for her efforts...so obvious
Eliza Madrigal: probably
Fael Illyar: I don't remember the story in question but, wouldn't what Mary did be perfectly sensible since she knew Martha would put more than necessary effort into the food?
Eliza Madrigal: yes that often happens Fael...hehe...ask most sisters
Eliza Madrigal: and brothers I'd imagine
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: problematical if we live our spiritual lives on the backs of others
Fael Illyar: There was no need for her to do anything about the food. It'd simply have added more needless work being done about the food.
Adams Rubble: I think that may be reading a bit into the story but certainly posible
SophiaSharon Larnia: but if she had sat, then would anyone eat? it doesnt say that anyone else was present
Eliza Madrigal: And the teaching, I suppose, is a great honor which isn't there every day
Adams Rubble: Yes, a time to listen
Eliza Madrigal: so the one who is fervent about it would put everything to the side...let things remain undone a little...until later
Adams Rubble: holy ground
Eliza Madrigal: yes
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
Fael Illyar: Martha was attempting to communicate through food.
Eliza Madrigal: In buddhism also this is true... gratitude for the honor of hearing dharma
Eliza Madrigal: feeling of privelege
Fox Monacular: i'm so sorry to interrupt, but what is this story about?
Adams Rubble: We are taking about the stry of Chri9st visiting the house of Mary and Martha in the New tyestament

Steve appears and joins in

Fael Illyar: Hi Steve :)
Adams Rubble: Good morning Steve. Welcome back!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Steven :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Steven :)
Adams Rubble: Beyond that we are talking about a subject discussed the past two evenings in PaB
Eliza Madrigal: The thing is, Mary/Martha is such a good example for some, of the wrestling we go through day to day... giving place to spiritual lives admist so many practical considerations
Adams Rubble: about living life on a superficial level
Fox Monacular: thanks
Fox Monacular: i just found it on the web
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fael Illyar: Martha put all her effort into fulfulling just one of the needs the guests possibly had.
Adams Rubble: yes fael
Eliza Madrigal: yes, it was her way of showing gratitude also
Eliza Madrigal: her work
--BELL--
Adams Rubble: yes Eliza
Adams Rubble: bell

Anthony rezzes in on my cushion and Fael wonders what I am doing with my bell entry which leads Fael to write some script to put it in logs

SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Anthony
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Anthony
Adams Rubble looks up and says Hi Anthony
Fox Monacular: hi Anthony
Fael Illyar scratches her head about the "bell" line this time.
SophiaSharon Larnia laughs
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fael Illyar: Hello Anthony :)
AnthonyCl Yalin: hello
AnthonyCl Yalin: sorry fr standing on people
Adams Rubble: (I am marking the place to put a line in the log Fael)
Adams Rubble: np Anthony
Adams Rubble: have you been here before?
SophiaSharon Larnia: Anthony was here this morning
AnthonyCl Yalin: earlier this moning
Adams Rubble: nice to meet you then Anthony :)
Fael Illyar: Ah, now it makes sense :)
Eliza Madrigal: I like that idea Adams... shows the flow to conversation?
Fael Illyar: that's also something that'd be much better automated though...
Eliza Madrigal: hm yes
Adams Rubble: yes, if it could be. I was told it couldn;t
AnthonyCl Yalin: excuse me. nice to meet you all.
stevenaia Michinaga: a volunteer, Fael?
Adams Rubble: hehe
Fael Illyar: it can be ... it just needs cooperation between the bell and the recorder
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, Adams, best to asking the impossible, in order to get something done
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble makes a note fo that
Adams Rubble: :)
Fael Illyar: which makes for slight problems as the bell is Storm's and recorder is Wol's
Fael Illyar: They'd need to *gasp* cooperate.
Adams Rubble giggles
Adams Rubble: and Storm is a bit preoccupied at the moment
Adams Rubble: and Wol too :)
Fael Illyar: Yep :)
Fael Illyar: although... I just realized neither of them is needed :)
Fael Illyar: I can do it myself.
Adams Rubble: yaaaay
Adams Rubble: way to go Fael :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: (wonders if she will be in trouble now)
Fael Illyar: why?
SophiaSharon Larnia: i have to look at the keyboard to type and miss the bell sometimes
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Rubble: we all do that :)
Adams Rubble: well some if us anyway :)
Adams Rubble: the keyboard lookers
SophiaSharon Larnia grins
Fael Illyar: nah, the bell is an extra :)
Fael Illyar: superficial :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Adams Rubble: :)

Eliza brings us back to the subject and Fox adds another twist or two to the story but on reflection we should not strive to please our teacher should we? ...but we all do, don't we?

Eliza Madrigal: I think it is about priorities and nothing more.... not saying that cooking and serving practically, is not vital...
Eliza Madrigal: but making time for pauses/meditation the non-negotiable
stevenaia Michinaga: so who put the fish in the pond? speaking of priorities?
Adams Rubble: Quen for the fish (see Fridays log)
Fael Illyar: quen
Fox Monacular: I think it's also about what you show to your teacher... you just sit and receive the teachings or you try to please and impress his senses
Fox Monacular: so senses are superficial and easy
Adams Rubble: that is an interesting approach Fox
SophiaSharon Larnia: interesting Fox
Fox Monacular: but genuine attention and gratitudefor something intangible requires much more work
Eliza Madrigal: interesting, yes..even though the working 'looks' harder
Fox Monacular: than just preparing food
Adams Rubble: lots of levels to this :)
Adams Rubble: It goes beyond superficiality
Eliza Madrigal nods, and we talked about this one day too, that jesus could be a bit ruthless... telling followers to forsake family, etc
Fox Monacular: yes, it is also about physical senses vs soul senses
Fox Monacular: like buddha in a way
Eliza Madrigal: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: food is such a lovely metaphor for so many things
Adams Rubble nods to Steve
Fox Monacular: yes, food for body vs food for soul...
Eliza Madrigal nods... not much energy for study if one doesn't eat, too
stevenaia Michinaga: service to others
Fox Monacular: one creates a temporary satiety, the other accumulates and is never lost
Fox Monacular: true, Eliza :)
Adams Rubble: yes
Fox Monacular: the amount of chocolate I consumed preparing for exams.... hmmm...
Eliza Madrigal: hehee
Adams Rubble: :)
--BELL--

Fael unveils her work to us. The script was retroactive to the beginnning of the log so you have been seeing her work all along

Fael Illyar: Well, there's a crude bell marker in there now :)
Fael Illyar: it doesn't actually listen to Storm's bell but looks at the time.
Adams Rubble: Oh great, I'll be the guinea pig today then :)
Adams Rubble: That'll work
Fael Illyar: looking at an older log it appears to work just fine.
Fael Illyar: if it doesn't let me know :)
Adams Rubble: will do :)
Adams Rubble: I'll kee[p inserting my line to test it
SophiaSharon Larnia: brb
stevenaia Michinaga: I must go
Fael Illyar: See you later Steve :)
Adams Rubble: bye Steve. Good to see you again :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Steven :) Good to see you
Fox Monacular: bye steve
stevenaia Michinaga: enjoy your day
Fox Monacular: is the bell here to re-set our minds?
Fox Monacular: it's probably a stupid question...
Eliza Madrigal: Not at all
Adams Rubble: No, trying to remember what Pema said about it
Adams Rubble: wanted a longer stop than just the nine seconds
Adams Rubble: In a way, it is to reset, to stop and pause
Eliza Madrigal nods
Fox Monacular: such a great idea
Fael Illyar: the bell was originally just a reminder for those who wanted to do 9 seconds on time basis

Fox remarks that the 90 second pause should be used elsewhere, like in schools which leads us eventually into a new topic

Fox Monacular: they should do it in school too
Adams Rubble nods
Adams Rubble: :)
Eliza Madrigal: that would be a great idea
Eliza Madrigal: just the option there
Adams Rubble: some shanagans would go on in elementary schools :)
Fox Monacular: :)
Adams Rubble remembers naps in kindergarten
Fox Monacular: this group is really nice, now I found some use for SL :)
Adams Rubble remembers being held down
Fox Monacular: ouch
SophiaSharon Larnia still naps
Eliza Madrigal: There are some teachers who take breaks more often than 'allowed'..get the kids to stretch or breathe, etc. There are studies which show this helps with tests, but school are stuck on showing what they do every second of the day
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Fox I kn ow what you mean
Adams Rubble: yes Fox :)
Eliza Madrigal: Glad, Fox :))
Fox Monacular: me too :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh my Adams
Fox Monacular: napping helps a lot too

I still remember looking around the room to view my peers taking their naps. We shift into sleeping habits

Adams Rubble: my head kept popping up
Adams Rubble: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
SophiaSharon Larnia: !
Fox Monacular: mammals, like us, are not really supposed to be awake for 18 hours and sleep for 6
Adams Rubble: I find it easy to nap now :)
Fox Monacular: even 20 min naps help
Eliza Madrigal: yes, definitely
Fox Monacular: me too... i have a baby...
SophiaSharon Larnia: my naps are 3 hours
Eliza Madrigal: oh goodness Sophia
Fox Monacular: cool, Sophia
Fox Monacular: lucky you
Eliza Madrigal: and you sleep at night?
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes dont sleep I work night shift
Fael Illyar: I've been finding myself retreating to bed a couple of times per day for a few minutes.
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, nurse schedule
Fox Monacular: ouch, I used to work night shifts
Adams Rubble: yes rough to work nights
Fael Illyar: although, I'm not sure if that can be called napping, as it's not sleep.
Fox Monacular: over a summer, and then got depressed in september
Eliza Madrigal: like baby schedule

Circadian Clock

SophiaSharon Larnia: left to my own devices though, I have noticed for years that I will take on a 25-26 hour day, I dont know why
Fael Illyar: I just lay there, but awake
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Fox
Adams Rubble: we are programmed for that Sophia
Fox Monacular: Sophia, it may be just your circadian clock
Eliza Madrigal: Fael, yes those are like my naps too... i might slip into sleep for a few minutes but mostly just 'resting'
SophiaSharon Larnia: yup
Fox Monacular: if left in a free schedule, many people will go over 24 hour cycle
Fox Monacular: there are some studies about that
Fael Illyar: if it's sleeping, it's definitely quite different :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes the time ove being awake will slowly rotate around the clock
Fael Illyar: ah, that explains how come my sleeping cycle tends to keep going forward if I don't have to wake up for something every day at the same time
Fox Monacular: yes, but then there are also hormonal things dependent on the time of the day
Eliza Madrigal: It is only recently they admitted that the body does 'catch up' on sleep
Fox Monacular: and sunlight
Fox Monacular: so you'd oscillate back and forth
--BELL--
Adams Rubble: wb Fox
SophiaSharon Larnia: we are programmed Adams? By society to get more done in less time?
Eliza Madrigal: Fox, you reset!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: wb Fox :)
Fox Monacular: sorry about that my battery died
Adams Rubble: there have been tests of people removed from sunlight and other stimulation
Adams Rubble: they live a 25 hour day
Fox Monacular: yes
Fox Monacular: but when they come back, sunlight would change that
Adams Rubble: yes
Fox Monacular: because it will stimulate melatonin production
Adams Rubble: did not know that part :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: ues to take melatonin, couldnt tell the difference
Fox Monacular: and then there are also more social things, like time when you have to wake up to go to work
Fox Monacular: well, i don't thing synthetic melatonin would do exactly the same thing
Fox Monacular: it's probably different for endogenous melatonin produced because of sunlight
Adams Rubble: Working at night might have some of the same effect
Adams Rubble: remove you from that stimulation
Fox Monacular: working at night has very individual effects
Fox Monacular: some people have no problem, others take a hit on their immune system

We had noticed Fox was knowledgeable and now find out how...

Fox Monacular: I work in a sleep lab btw
Eliza Madrigal: Wasn't there also a study of nurses that showed it wasn't working at night which was the issue, or long hours, but switching schedules so often... very tough on the body
SophiaSharon Larnia: cool Fox
Eliza Madrigal: Oh! Neat, Fox
Adams Rubble: yes, neat Fox :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: im sure there was
Fox Monacular: yes, switching is the worst thing
Adams Rubble: what i don't understand is that hospitals seem tp put their people under the most brutal of schedules
SophiaSharon Larnia: in your lab Fox, can you identify on the EEG where a hypnogogic dream state may be occuring?
Fox Monacular: i know it's terrible
Adams Rubble: would think medical people would be sensitive to that
Fox Monacular: yes!
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh?
Fox Monacular: i actually work in the dream lab and that's what we do
Fox Monacular: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: sleep onset
SophiaSharon Larnia: and sleep awakening dreams

I hope I am present when Maxine and Fox meet up :). We start to talk excitedly about dreams

Adams Rubble: have you met Maxine yet Fox?
Fox Monacular: we had a few studies when we would wake then up at sleep onset
Fox Monacular: no, not yet
Fox Monacular: , there are specific eeg changes that often correspond to hypnagogia
Adams Rubble: She has a dream workshop in Kira but it is on leave for the summer
Adams Rubble: and she is away now
Adams Rubble: too
Fox Monacular: it's the coolest type of lab dream collection
Fox Monacular: wow, cool
SophiaSharon Larnia: (ty for the correct spelling, I dont talk about this stuff)
SophiaSharon Larnia: it is a bit alarming, do you find this in patient statements
Fox Monacular: sorry, find what?
SophiaSharon Larnia: that people awoke from this stage of sleep will report particularly sensory dreams
Fox Monacular: not really, usually it's just very brief images
SophiaSharon Larnia: ok
Fox Monacular: however when it's sleep paralysis
Fox Monacular: it's a whole other story
Eliza Madrigal listens
Fox Monacular: sleep paralysis is charactelized by very vivid and very real hallucinations
Fox Monacular: often in all sensory modalities
Fox Monacular: people can't move (muscle atonie from REM sleep) but they are awake and hallucinating
Eliza Madrigal nods... is fascinating and frightening
Fox Monacular: so it's mostly very scary, they might feel pressure on the body, feel touched, choked
Fox Monacular: sometimes it's even sexual
Fox Monacular: and they often feel presence
Fox Monacular: as if someone or something was there
Fox Monacular: most of my researhc is on that stuf
Fox Monacular: sorry for misspelling...
SophiaSharon Larnia: thankfully, never had the first stuff! but the presense, sure, sorry to pick your brain here Fox :)
Fael Illyar: how does sleep paralysis happen? Is it just a condition some people have?
Eliza Madrigal: we speak typo thank goodness :)
Fox Monacular: yes, some people are prone to that and others are not
Adams Rubble: :) Eliza!
Fox Monacular: it's a sort of dream intrusion into wake
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes it is
Fox Monacular: correlated to other drem disturbances like nightmares or lucid dreaming
Fox Monacular: it's fascinating how many people have it
Fox Monacular: and yet nobody talks about it
Eliza Madrigal wonders about conditions which make it likely... had the more frightening experiences years ago
SophiaSharon Larnia: one last thing, is there any research that you of, that there people prone to sleep paralysis, report being easily hypnotized
Fox Monacular: because our culture fears 'supernatural' talk
--BELL--
Fox Monacular: Sophia, not that I know of

Fox leaves for a bit. She will return later for more discussion but she arrives just as another avatar is leaving and it seems to affect the listener picking her up. We continue to discuss lucid dreaming

Fox Monacular: sorry have to run baby woke up!
SophiaSharon Larnia smiles
SophiaSharon Larnia: thank you Fox Take care
Fael Illyar smiles.
Eliza Madrigal nods, and yet that is the silliest thing... that we don't talk about it in the mainstream often. So much history and mythology and art evidence that these things are part of humanity somehow.
Adams Rubble: gives up on bell
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Rubble: lots we don;t talk about
Adams Rubble: unless someone is selling something that deals with it
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes! Eliza, I have felt that much in our imagery arose from states like this
Eliza Madrigal: yes exactly, and many 'great thinkers' have talked on the edges about some of these things
Eliza Madrigal: but still, we treat it as marginal knowledge
Eliza Madrigal: so odd to me
Fael Illyar: Lots of fears about these subjects around.
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I think the problem comes from "I had this dream, therefore *you must do or believe ___
Adams Rubble: yes, people misusing such things to take advantage of people
Eliza Madrigal: literal interpretations etc
Eliza Madrigal: yes
SophiaSharon Larnia: i used to try to play with it, have lucid dreams, but gave up on it
Fael Illyar: I read about lucid dreams, wanted to have them, then had a couple semi-lucid ones and lost interest :)
SophiaSharon Larnia smiles
Adams Rubble: are we talking visions?
Eliza Madrigal: Pila taught me something important about an experience I had... that to me it was scary, but might have easily been more normal... taken place 'in the light' as it were... think this is the same
Eliza Madrigal: between lucid dreaming and being out of control/scared in dreams...maybe
SophiaSharon Larnia: lucid dreams as in controling the direction the dream takes,
Fael Illyar: oh and after the lucid dreams, maybe a month or two later, I suddenly realized during a nightmare that it's a dream and I can change things.
SophiaSharon Larnia: hard to remember at the time
Fael Illyar: after that, I haven't really seen a dream that felt like a nightmare.
SophiaSharon Larnia: 'in the light' Eliza?
Fael Illyar: some a bit heavier ones, yes, but no panic.
Eliza Madrigal: yes, similar to what Fael is saying...
Adams Rubble: Yes Fael, we can dream solutions to scary drream situations if we want
Eliza Madrigal: that perhaps the body sensation is the same, but it isn't scary/central to what is being experienced... and there is more trust/light... ?
SophiaSharon Larnia: ah smiles
Adams Rubble: used to tell that to my childrren when they were small
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fael Illyar: I mostly decided to shield myself so I don't have to be scared of what happens and let it happen :)
Adams Rubble: I had an experience with light too
Fael Illyar: and watched with interest what scary things happened.

Licia listens for a short while

Adams Rubble: Hello Licia
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Lucia
Adams Rubble: Licia
Licia Cisse: hello
Fael Illyar: Hello Licia :)
Eliza Madrigal: Imporant too not to 'try to make anything happen' but perhaps a state of rest, in a way
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Licia :)
Adams Rubble: Have you been here before Licia?
Licia Cisse: yes, this is my second time here
Fael Illyar: I think it eventually became a realization that since it's a dream, it's nothing to be afraid of.
Adams Rubble: nice to meet you then :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes nice to meet you Licia
Adams Rubble: yes Fael
Licia Cisse: :)
Fael Illyar: so, I no longer had to even do anything :)
Eliza Madrigal nods to Fael, and further... isn't that much of what we talk about in PaB?
Adams Rubble: It is a very empowering feeling to be able to chase the demons away
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Fael Illyar: I just let them be, they were powerless anyhow :)
Adams Rubble: hehe. OK
SophiaSharon Larnia: appreciating the presence of being in a dream :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles widely
Fael Illyar: (well, ok, not entirely accurate, their power came from you anyway)
Fael Illyar: (or me)
Fael Illyar: (if we talk about mine)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, relate
Eliza Madrigal: we spend effort trying to knock down the cages rather than seeing the cage is illusory
Eliza Madrigal: and learning to see that moment to moment
Eliza Madrigal: and 'be' that way
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Eliza moment by moment
Fael Illyar: I'd like to rephrase that... we send effot trying to knock down the cages rather than realizing that the cage is there because we, ourselves, make them be there.
Adams Rubble: still fun to knock some demons around (giggles)
SophiaSharon Larnia: and cages
Fael Illyar: well, yes :)
--BELL--

I closed down the log here because Fox was not being picked up but the discussion continued on for a while. I am adding some comments while removing some personal things said

Adams Rubble: It was a good session. Thanks everyone
Fael Illyar: Thank you Adams :)
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Adams :)
Fox Monacular: thank you!
SophiaSharon Larnia: no thank you

Eliza Madrigal: The subject of dream states is one I could talk about for days. Is that how it ended up being your particular interest, Fox? 

Fox Monacular: dreams? yes, i've always been into dreams and states of consciousness
Fox Monacular: and then i found this awesome lab that studies dreams scientifically

Fox Monacular: really lucky
Eliza Madrigal: Maxine calls it a kind of topography
Fox Monacular: so i worked there for a while and now i'm doing my masters, soon a phd
Fox Monacular: synchronicity too probably
Eliza Madrigal: Fantastic, and having babies too! :)
Fael Illyar: Fox, do we have any way to know how big proportion of dreams are actually remembered?
Fox Monacular: it was outside of my BA completely
Fox Monacular: i was doing art history

Adams Rubble: :)
Fox Monacular: now in neuroscience
Adams Rubble: Another thing to ad to what one can do with an Art History degree :)

I am a little hesitant about posting the rest without permission because some comments seem a bit personal. Pregnancy and dreams were mentioned. It was wondered how chemical changes in the body might affect dreaming. How the body and the mind are intertwined; which is which? The "mind is embodied". Some of the effects of pregnanacy on sleep and dreaming is being studied at the dream lab. Also discussed was how having a baby affects how one looks at the world.