2009.07.05 07:00 - We Are More Than We Think We Are

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

    I arrived early as so sat for a bit before Pema arrived a few minutes after the hour. For a while it was just the two of us but we eventually were joined by Yakuzza, Storm, Sophia, Wol, SophiaLauren, Avastu and Eliza for a rigorous discussion about seeing Being as a reesource.

    Adams Rubble: Hello Pema :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Adams!
    Adams Rubble: It is very quiet in the pavilion this morning :)
    Adams Rubble: up to now. hehe
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Pema Pera thinking about various loud noises or dances or rockets he could produce . . . .
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: if only Moon were here . . . .
    Adams Rubble: I was thinking the same thought
    Adams Rubble: We left the siren at the other paviulion
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Adams Rubble: (thank goodness)
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Pema Pera: (same thought)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: Is there anything particular you'd like to discuss, Adams?
    At Pema's invitation I lead up to a question about Being and resource
    Adams Rubble: I am not sure it "discussable"
    Adams Rubble: but this morning I woke up thinking of my "vision" of being rocked
    Adams Rubble: in association with seeing Being as a resource
    Adams Rubble: that there is a connection
    Adams Rubble: in seeing ourselves as part of a bigger picrture
    Pema Pera: for sure, yes!
    Adams Rubble: When I woke up I felt that I was close to understanding seeing Being as a resource
    Pema Pera: can you tell me a bit more?
    Adams Rubble: well the thought of the "vision" is what followed (or preceded)
    Adams Rubble: The thoughts were conneected
    Pema Pera: Being has to be seen/used as a Resource, to have any meaning at all -- even though the words to describe that are limited and seemingly paradoxical
    Pema Pera: I think I've mentioned that I like the word "seen" better than "used" but in first approximation both are fine -- and neither is precise :-)
    OK, but what about the "easy" part
    Adams Rubble: I was interested that the other day you said it was so easy
    Pema Pera: from Being's point of view all is Being, so there is no question of using or even the notion of a resource
    Adams Rubble: which means I am circling around the understanding
    Pema Pera: but from our more limited perspective, if Being cannot be approached as a resource, it is meaningless and remains abstract
    Pema Pera: yes, it is so easy that it is hard to accept that it is so easy !!!
    Adams Rubble: Let me ask a question....
    Pema sends me to a couple of sessions as examples. We stop to greet new arrivals and it is a while until we find out what Paradise actually said
    Pema Pera: btw, just today I read the session of two days ago 1 pm: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...ce_and_Stories
    Adams Rubble: My only clue is having used God as a resource
    Adams Rubble nods
    Pema Pera: I was moved by your description to Sophia about this point -- sorry, yes?
    Adams Rubble: that is relevant :)
    Pema Pera: Also, as for the "easy" you might want to look at yesterday evening's chat log: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...00_-_Nasruddin
    Pema Pera: just after "Paradise brought up a great topic." relatively early on in the log
    Adams Rubble looks
    sophia Placebo: greetibgs
    Pema Pera: but please continue with "only clue is having used God as a resource"
    Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
    sophia Placebo: greetings*
    sophia Placebo: hello sorm
    Adams Rubble: Hello Sophia, Storm and Yakuzza
    Pema Pera: We just picked up the same topic that you and Adams talked about two days ago, God/Being as a resource
    Pema Pera: Hi Storm and hi Yak!
    Storm Nordwind: Hello everyone
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Adams Rubble: Hello WSol :)
    sophia Placebo: hi yak
    Pema Pera: and hi Wol!
    Wol Euler: hello adams, pema, storm, yak, sophia
    We start again with the "easy" question but I ask what is the difference between seeing God as a resource and seeing Being as a resource
    Adams Rubble: we were just getting to the easy part :)
    sophia Placebo: yes i remmber asking adams "resorce of what"?
    sophia Placebo: hi wal
    Pema Pera: hahaha, yes . . . please continue, Adams!
    sophia Placebo: Wol*
    Adams Rubble: well I am asking (hehe) I haven't found it so easy to figure this out
    Adams Rubble: how I can take my understanding of God as a resource and apply it to Being as a resource
    Adams Rubble: I was going to ask what is the difference?
    Pema asks me to descrive How I used to see God as a resource
    Pema Pera: can you say more about the former? Your understanding of God as a resource?
    Pema Pera: Hi SophiaSharon!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Sophia :)
    Wol Euler: hello sophiasharon
    sophia Placebo waves
    sophia Placebo: hi sophia :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone thanks for the hellos
    As I recall my experience it is clear that "weaknesses" are part of it
    Adams Rubble: well, I felt that God had a plan for me
    Adams Rubble: that He would guide me
    Adams Rubble: the best part was that I felt at peace
    Adams Rubble: that I did not have to depend on my own weaknesses
    Adams Rubble: that I could act despite them
    Adams Rubble: be more than I could just by depending on my own poor skills
    Adams Rubble: transcend my weaknesses
    Pema Pera: all of that can carry over easily to viewing Being as a resource, even though the language would be somewhat different
    Storm asks whether I see myself separate from God and I stop to think about it
    Storm Nordwind: In order for that to work, Adams, do you feel the need to stay separate from God so that there is a "guide" and a "guided"? If so would that be different to Being?
    Adams Rubble: Interesting point Storm
    Adams Rubble: I'd have to think about that
    Pema notices that my use of "plan" is referring to a previous conversation in which I talked about a "calling"
    Pema Pera: what would be a "calling" or a "plan" in terms of a more personal image of God, could be seen as "the natural next step" at each given time, in a less personal-God approach, as in Taoism for example, or in PaB
    Pema Pera: yes, similar to Storm's point
    Pema reveals Paradise's comment which is right on target to what we are discussing. It is followed by Eos quoting the Beattles and Eliza noting it is "easy"
    Pema Pera: I found it fascinating that Paradise brought up a very similar point yesterday evening in http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...00_-_Nasruddin
    Pema Pera: Paradise Tennant: but in each and every moment we experience .. there is always a sense of whatever is the situation .. this is what should be :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: Paradise Tennant: we so often fight .. or want to change what is .. instead of accepting that what ever is ..could not be otherwise .. that is not to say you do not plan or try to improve things just focus on the now and enjoy it for all it is .. and really all you ever have :)
    Adams Rubble: yes, that is VERY close
    Pema Pera: and then Eos quoted the Beatles: Eos Amaterasu: "Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be."
    Pema Pera: and Eliza continued the quote: Eliza Madrigal: Its easy... lalala
    Pema Pera: so we are back to the "easy" Adams!
    Adams Rubble: :)))
    Wol Euler: :)
    Storm makes a distinction between things being easy when they are going well and the times when when they aren't and I relate that to my memory of using God as a resource
    Storm Nordwind: It's easy provided things are going OK. I suspect it's rather hard when times are difficult!
    Adams Rubble: On one level
    Storm Nordwind: Though of course "difficult" may be an entirely subject term, and something you can change
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I feel that these weaknesses are our vulnerablities, not that they make us weak, they make us individual, I feel that we are all given everything we need as a part of being
    Pema Pera: harder perhaps at first -- but given the alternative of having to face impossible problems, it's much easier to make that leap -- but yes, it does require practice and familiarity, something PaB hopefully can help prepare us for
    Pema Pera: great point, SophiaSharon!
    Adams Rubble: It is when things are difficult that we know we need more than our own poor skills
    SophiaSharon Larnia: we need others perhaps
    Adams Rubble: Hello Avastu
    Pema Pera: Good to see you again, Avastu!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Avastu
    There is a break a 90 second break and I begin to see where I am hung up with what it is that limits our actions. We are not inherently weak but are limited by what how we think defines ourselves, by our identities.
    Adams Rubble: Let me amend my last sentence
    Storm Nordwind waves
    sophia Placebo: hi avastu
    Wol Euler: hello avastu
    Adams Rubble: It is when things are difficult we need to see past our identities
    Pema Pera: yes, that feels more like going to the core, Adams!
    Storm Nordwind nods
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Not poor and useless creatures...
    Pema Pera: considering ourselves poor and useless can help to some extent but has the danger of becoming a passive servant of God
    Wol Euler: nods
    Wol Euler: think rather of Milton in his blindness
    Pema Pera: considering ourselves as far more than what we thought we are is more real emancipation
    Adams Rubble: High fives all around (giggles)
    OK, I got a little giddy after realizing where limitations come from
    SophiaSharon Larnia agrees
    Pema Pera: in Christianity "we are all God's children" -- a very powerful reminder that we are not just some useless critter somewhere in a corner of the Universe . . . .
    We consider how islam views the relationships between Allah and human beings
    Pema Pera: Sophia, does Islam have a similar perspective, of us as God's children?
    sophia Placebo: no
    sophia Placebo: islam consider humas as creatures
    sophia Placebo: most beloved but creatures
    Pema Pera: but Sufis seem to have a somewhat different angle, if I understood you right, the other day?
    sophia Placebo: sufis have the oneness or unity of creation with creator
    sophia Placebo: in which the consider allah as the being
    sophia Placebo: alwojoud
    sophia Placebo: rest of muslims dont
    sophia Placebo: they consider allah as the founder or creator of beings
    Pema Pera: Sufis may be closest to the way I understand "Play as Being", but at the same time, I recognize many resonances in what you have said in various sessions, too
    Pema Pera: Do other muslims tolerate the views of Sufis? If they are so different, does that not cause friction?
    sophia Placebo: in books it is discussed
    sophia Placebo: maybe in forums
    sophia Placebo: these arent new
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I understood this to be quite fierce
    Adams Rubble: Hello Eliza
    Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
    sophia Placebo: hi eliza
    Adams Rubble has been quietly thinking this out
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello everyone :)
    Trying to ask where Being comes into this I sidetrack us by introducing "unworthiness"
    Adams Rubble: and does not understand how Being comes into the picture
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Adams Rubble: if I am realizing I am more than the limitations of my identities
    Adams Rubble: which is what God did for me although with the cost of me seeing myself as another identity, i.e a poor worthless creature, unworthy of the sight of God
    Adams Rubble: in the sight of God
    sophia Placebo: one shouln't be weak though
    sophia Placebo: nor sleep walker
    sophia Placebo: nor like hypnotized
    Wol Euler: hello eliza
    sophia Placebo: you feel weak and poor in front of God cause he who gave you all the powers you have , to thank him for these is to show it to use it and not to abuse it or underestimate it
    Wol Euler: where does "unworthy" come from, Adams?
    Adams Rubble: The first Adam (and Eve) (hehe)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Hi Wol :)
    Eliza Madrigal listening
    Adams Rubble: In Judaeo-Christian terms we are sinners and unworthy
    Storm makes an interesting observation which we come back to much later
    Storm Nordwind is thinking back to his years as a Heathen, and remembering that Heathen gods rather prefered if you stood up to them rather than supplicate before them. That way drawing on them as resources was like an adult-to-adult conversation
    Wol Euler has always been very uncomfortable with that idea.
    Adams Rubble: we are looking past that this morning Wol
    Adams Rubble: that instead of being burdened with feeling we are unworthy
    Adams Rubble: we are burdened with our identities of being limited
    Pema Pera: the "sin" angle in Christianity may be just one particular trap that many European Christian groups have falling into . . . it may not be an essential part of Christianity as such.
    Pema Pera: how about this angle: if a child forgets being a child of his parents, he may see himself as utterly unworthy, when seeing his faults -- but when remembering to be a child, that then changes everything -- does that help?
    Adams Rubble: in either case we are capable of much more than we think we are
    Pema Pera: (us as children of God vs. sinners)
    Pema Pera: I also have to think back to Geo's much milder view of "sin"
    Adams Rubble: sorry I have gotten us on to a side track
    I ask again about Being and Pema notes "we are more than we think we are" and this is the "easy" part
    Adams Rubble: how does Being help us to see we are capable of more than we think we are???
    Adams Rubble: or I am I seeing it wrong?
    Pema Pera: we are more than we think we are
    Pema Pera: that's the most basic point
    Storm Nordwind: Being is something you can come to see as having no separation with. If that happens, what else would there be to be? :)
    Adams Rubble: is that the easy part Pema?
    Pema Pera: what we think we are turns out to be a bunch of mistaken identifications -- roles we have
    Pema Pera: if we drop what we have we can begin to see what we are
    Pema Pera: and yes, that is "easy" in the sense of considering it to be "difficult" makes it impossible
    Pema Pera: "difficult" points to a procedure, something to do
    Pema Pera: but there is nothing to do, doing/changing you into something more wonderful than you already are is impossible, more than just difficult
    Adams Rubble continues to excell at that part...making it into a procedure
    Pema Pera: so just letting go, that's the "easy" part
    Pema Pera: as soon as we stop protesting and struggling :-)
    Pema Pera: Avastu considers it to be so easy, that there is hardly any need to talk about it -- am I right, Avastu?
    Avastu Maruti smiles
    Pema Pera: :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Eliza and I make note fo things said earlier
    Eliza Madrigal is still contemplating Adams typo of earlier "being worthy of the sight of God"
    Eliza Madrigal: Isn't that what it is... beyond less/more...beyond trying?
    Adams Rubble still contemplating Storm's statement about hethen gods liing to be stood up to
    Adams Rubble: heathen gods liking
    Pema Pera: there is also the old testament story of strugling with an angel . . . .
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    SophiaSharon Larnia: this is a feeling I have experienced, like the world turns on that axis.
    Here we sat quietly for a while and Wol decides to shake us up
    Wol Euler: onigokko
    sophia Placebo: lol
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Wol Euler: stop
    Wol Euler: just making sure we were all still awake.
    Pema Pera: some of us indeed turned on an axis!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: heheh
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Pema Pera: and yes, beyond trying . . . .
    Pema Pera: well, after that exertion, I think I'll go to bed -- it's past midnight here
    Adams Rubble: good night Pema :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Pema
    Pema Pera: thanks for the wonderful conversations!
    sophia Placebo: goodnight
    SophiaSharon Larnia: night Pema!
    Storm Nordwind: Sleep well :)
    Pema Pera: good day everyone :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: night pema
    Wol Euler: bye pema. take care
    Turning on the axis....
    Eliza Madrigal: Sophia do you mean that everything spins from a kind of center... ? Don't want to get caught up in the outer spinning but stay in the midst, so to speak?
    Eliza Madrigal: SophiaSharon...sorry :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no, i meant it in the sense that where I go forward from that point, depends on the insight that have received from the experience, like a crossroad
    Eliza Madrigal: ahhh :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i have learned also that this is putting heavy pressure on myself, that is not necessary
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i have interpreted this an interpretation of light and darkness, although this is different for everyone
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (soory repeated myself)
    Hell and Alabama
    Yakuzza Lethecus: lol, now that it´s nearly at the end and it wasn´t really on topic of god´s children but it´s about how many are going to hell :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: More than 1.86 million people in Alabama, 46.1% of the state's population, will be damned to hell if they don't have a born-again experience professing Jesus Christ as their savior, according to a report by Southern Baptist researchers."
    Yakuzza Lethecus: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/...maths.research
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i just saw that article today :P
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a bit of fear with your coffee :)
    Wol Euler sighs and shakes her head.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and i had to think about it again when it was about god´s children
    Wol Euler wonders whether they might be saved by moving to Georgia.
    Storm Nordwind laughs
    Adams Rubble: Hell is of our own making and it seems that thought is in that category
    Avastu Maruti: hahaha
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Wol Euler nods to Adams
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    sophia Placebo wonders what was the purpose of that study
    Wol Euler: maybe something else is going on in Alabama that people need to be distracted from?
    Wol Euler: sorry, that was unnecessarily cynical.
    Storm Nordwind: Maybe church funds are getting low
    Adams Rubble giggles
    sophia Placebo: :)
    sophia Placebo: money money
    sophia Placebo: the new earth axis
    Wol Euler: both new and ancient ...
    sophia Placebo: yes
    Wol Euler: the koran says "don't envy the rich man, didn't Allah give him his wealth? Who are you to disagree?"
    Wol Euler: (not quite in those words :)
    A visitor sits for a minute or two and gets up and leaves us
    Wol Euler: ah well :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    sophia Placebo: see you later , i enjoyed the chat and the silence
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Bye for now Sophia
    Wol Euler: bye sophia, take care
    Avastu Maruti: love to you my friends
    Adams Rubble: bye Sophia and Avastu
    Eliza Madrigal: love to you Avastu
    Wol Euler: bye avastu, enjoy the day
    Avastu Maruti: off to Alabama - sounds like fun there
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I am off too, take care everyone :)
    Adams Rubble: Bye Sophia :)
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Fear of God
    Eliza Madrigal was often terrified of god as a child...coincidentally raised baptist by very friendly ladies serving lemon cookies ...strange thing to reconcile
    Wol Euler: heh
    Eliza Madrigal: so much talk about hell, until one finally says "Well let me see for myself"
    Storm Nordwind: Maybe it was something in the lemon? ;)
    Wol Euler: yeah
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Storm Nordwind slips away quietly during the silence
    Wol Euler: bye storm, take care
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Storm
    Adams Rubble: bye Storm :)
    Wol Euler: oh, Eliza, I just noticed your wisteria-coloured hair :) quite lovely.
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Wol... and I mean to tell you how cute you look too :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: ty
    Adams Rubble: wisteria colored is a loevely way to put it :)
    Wol Euler smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: I've been playing quite a bit...look will show you something...heheh
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Eliza Madrigal: Of course the sweater throws it off,...hhehe
    Adams Rubble: Eliza, you are like a heavenly being in a Chinese Buddhist painting :)
    Wol Euler: wow
    Eliza Madrigal likes that idea must admit
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: things are often frightening from the outside...like god
    Eliza Madrigal: from the inside, not so much so :)
    Adams Rubble: Hmm. I never had the experience of finding God frightening
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah... some traditions take 'the fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom' more literally than others
    Adams Rubble: I remember going to a Bible discussion group in HS
    Adams Rubble: I was very devout at the time and very active in youth organizations
    Adams Rubble: and all the people in the group started praying for me to be saved
    Adams Rubble: I dound THAT frightening
    Wol Euler boggles.
    Adams Rubble: of course, I stayed far away from them after that
    Wol Euler: too right.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: Many ideas of parenting are based in the same outlook... to honor one's father=fearing his strength, etc
    Adams Rubble: Now that is a different story; I was firghtened by by my father(giggles)
    Wol Euler: brb
    I  move to fill in a seat and Yakuzza and Eliza move too
    Adams Rubble notes the music has stopped and we all must retain our seats now :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hah
    Yakuzza Lethecus: where are you from adams ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: which state
    Yakuzza Lethecus: still in the bible belt ?
    Adams Rubble: No NJ. hehe
    Adams Rubble: but that was fuirther south
    Adams Rubble: in Philadelphia. hehe
    Yakuzza Lethecus: pennsylvania isn´t really in the bible belt i guess
    Adams Rubble: It did keep its blue laws longer than most states
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but there are the amish :D
    Adams Rubble: well, they're a minority
    Eliza Madrigal smells cinnamon rolls
    Adams Rubble: and keep mostyly to themselves
    Yakuzza Lethecus: cinnamon rolls ?
    Adams Rubble: they are great bakers
    Eliza Madrigal: Amish=cinnamon rolls to me :)
    Adams Rubble: shufly pie
    Adams Rubble: scrapple
    Eliza Madrigal: the most exquisite tomatoes....
    Adams Rubble: Hey!
    Adams Rubble: Jersey is know for its tomatoes :)
    Adams Rubble: known
    Eliza Madrigal: huge... slice them up and slowly cook in low temps...olive oil and garlic...
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe... Well, here our store tomatoes are terrible... have no taste.
    Adams Rubble: Yes, here too
    Eliza Madrigal: As soon as the Amish arrive from Penn I rush to greet them :)
    Adams Rubble: like red wet cardboard
    Yakuzza Lethecus: in Germany it isn´t better :P
    Wol Euler: back
    Eliza Madrigal: such a simple thing... but those little things dulled down have a cumulative effect
    Wol Euler: true, very true.
    Adams Rubble: I must go now. Everyone have a good day :)
    Eliza Madrigal: WB Wol
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Adams
    Wol Euler: bye adans, enjoy the day
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye adams
    Eliza Madrigal has so much she feels she 'should' be doing that she finds herself sitting here endlessly
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: I know that feeling, like a deer inthe headlights
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice company though... clarifying company :)
    Wol Euler: I have soooooo much to do before my holiday (thursday)

    Yakuzza and Eliza then discuss Wol's travel plans with Wol

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