2009.07.14 01:00 - Three times in one

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Wester Kiranov. The comments are by Wester Kiranov.

    Soon after I came into the pavillion, Pema joined me. We chatted a bit about my holidays (in Dutch)...

    Pema Pera: Hoi Wester!
    Pema Pera: Een rustige nacht hier.
    Wester Kiranov: hoi pema!
    Wester Kiranov: zoals meestal, rustig
    Wester Kiranov: ik ben net terug van vakantie
    Pema Pera: hoe was het?
    Wester Kiranov: erg leuk, heel ontspannend
    Pema Pera: waar ging je heen?
    Wester Kiranov: we waren met mijn ouders en zus en alle kinderen naar een meertje in de bergen, caldaro, zuid tirol

    ... and then Vajra Radikal joined us too.

    Pema Pera: Hi Vajra, goed to see you again!

    Wester Kiranov: en ik ben nu dus net een uurtje terug
    Vajra Radikal: namaste there
    Wester Kiranov: (sorry for the dutch)
    Wester Kiranov: hello vajra
    Vajra Radikal: hello
    Pema Pera: Vajra, Wester just told me she came back for a few weeks vacation, having arrived home just an hour ago!
    Pema Pera: Incredible dedication to PaB :-)
    Pema Pera: (Play as Being)
    Wester Kiranov: thanks ;)
    Vajra Radikal: amazing
    Vajra Radikal: where did u vacation 2
    Wester Kiranov: Italy, south tirol
    Vajra Radikal: any chance to seek spiritual growth
    Vajra Radikal: or just plain fun
    Wester Kiranov: family holiday - with my parents and my children and my sister
    Wester Kiranov: just having fun and relaxing
    Vajra Radikal: good 3 u

    Vajra told us about his plans for further spiritual development, and shared his story about what happened before that.
    Vajra Radikal: im planning on leavin in a couple of weeks to seek a huichol shaman ive been told about
    Wester Kiranov: sounds exciting
    Vajra Radikal: just hope it is not overhyped
    Pema Pera: it probably depends a lot on context, how much you can learn and share -- unlike Buddhism, which is more explicitly trying to be universal, shamanism focuses very much on the local and the particular of culture and place
    Vajra Radikal: agreed
    Pema Pera: perhaps easier to get into, because it is so concrete in that sense -- at the same time harder to get into for someone not familiar with the culture and place . . .
    Vajra Radikal: im interested in this whole concept of connecting to the earth power
    Pema Pera: I'm looking forward to hear about your adventures, Vajra, in due time!
    Vajra Radikal: sounds more raw than dharma
    Pema Pera: Yes, many great Hindu and Buddhist teachers *also* very much appreciated the power of places!
    Pema Pera: and of course Taoists too
    Pema Pera: especially
    Vajra Radikal: i do appreaciate the chanco of connectung back to my nations roots as i feel somewhat out of touch
    Vajra Radikal: shamanism is so very much part of mexican culture
    Vajra Radikal: it embibes traditions as far and wode as food and spirituality
    Pema Pera: Vajra, you have told us that you went from atheism to Buddhism. I found that a fascinating and in many ways quiet logical move. Can you say a bit more about your trajectory in that respect, your explorations? And perhaps also the next step to shamanism?
    Vajra Radikal: I began life as a catholic as most people do here
    Vajra Radikal: that was until after my first communion
    Vajra Radikal: during my first confessional i was told to read the bible
    Vajra Radikal: as pennace
    Vajra Radikal: that got me going into questioning
    Vajra Radikal: as I never did that before it was until then
    Vajra Radikal: that i had a first time at questioning
    Vajra Radikal: a lot of the fundamental leaps of faith
    Vajra Radikal: Got into a very big conflict which derived into atheism as god
    Vajra Radikal: didn't cover all the logical aspects I had somehow come to expect
    Vajra Radikal: then after university i developed sort of a vice on physics
    Vajra Radikal: especially quantum theory and that gave me
    Vajra Radikal: a better view of a different world where my
    Vajra Radikal: spiritual void was filled by this science
    Vajra Radikal: especially string theory woth its borderline approach
    Vajra Radikal: between science and philosophy
    Vajra Radikal: my wife always wanted me to go back to the church but somehow we evolved into a middle ground with
    Vajra Radikal: buddhism as i supports my view of a godless and designless world as much as it supports her vision of a design above it all
    Vajra Radikal: now the whole deal with the shaman is to explore different practices than ours
    Vajra Radikal: that was a lot of my chest _)
    Vajra Radikal: :)
    Pema Pera: that's a very eloquent summary of a life time, Vajra, I'm impressed both by the content and the way you managed to summarize that content!
    We talked a bit more about the compability of different religions.
    Wester Kiranov: i like the idea of buddhism as a compromise between atheism and catholicism
    Vajra Radikal: sincretism is a part of mexican culture
    Vajra Radikal: you still see indigenous symbols and deitys intertwined with western figures of the virgin and jesus
    Vajra Radikal: i used to have a laugh at the fact that under our buddha altar my wife kept and imago of our lady of guadalupe
    Wester Kiranov: mmmm ... maybe i should move to mexico ;)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: it sounds like Japan, where Shinto and Buddhism go together quite well too
    Wester Kiranov: buddism does combine well with other religions, i think. in tibet as well
    Vajra Radikal: at least it does in theory
    Vajra Radikal: however ive been worried at a certain amount of intollerance
    Vajra Radikal: between buddhist groups
    Wester Kiranov: like the dalai lama and (i forgot, who was it again)
    Wester Kiranov: i think storm talked about it
    Vajra Radikal: basically the dalay lama vs all dorge shudgen practitioners
    Wester Kiranov: that was what i meant
    Wester Kiranov: it worries me too
    Vajra Radikal: will probably dedicate tonights meditation so that they find common ground again
    Then Vajra and Pema left and Sophia came in.
    Vajra Radikal: btw i must leave so as to meditate and sleep
    Vajra Radikal: see you later guys
    Wester Kiranov: bye then, it was good talking with you
    Pema Pera: bye Vajra!
    Pema Pera: yes, thank you!
    Pema Pera: Wel, ik denk dat ik er ook maar eens vandoor ga
    Pema Pera: zo krijg jij dan de kans om je huis wat aan kant te krijgen :-)
    Wester Kiranov: dan ga ik zo ook maar eens. tot ziens!
    Pema Pera: ik vond het heel leuk om Vajra weer te zien
    Wester Kiranov: vond ik ook
    Pema Pera: ik denk dat ik aan de groep voor zal stellen om hem uit te nodigen als guardian, wat dacht je daarvan?
    Wester Kiranov: vind ik een prima idee
    Pema Pera: ik zal wachten tot je chat log op het web staat, zodat mensen daar dan over hem kunnen lezen
    Wester Kiranov: dan zal ik hem maar snel op het web zetten :)
    Pema Pera: bedankt!
    Pema Pera: En tot ziens!
    Pema Pera: hello and goodbye Sophia!
    Wester Kiranov: tot ziens!
    Pema Pera: Sorry, I just was about to leave, sorry to miss you!
    sophia Placebo: hi and bye pema
    Wester Kiranov: hi sophia
    sophia Placebo: hi wester
    sophia Placebo: ^^
    We talked about the dropping of emotions.

    sophia Placebo: hi tycho
    sophia Placebo: chat lag
    sophia Placebo: have you tried the dropping wester ?
    Wester Kiranov: done a lot of informal dropping lately - just come back from holidays
    sophia Placebo: :)
    sophia Placebo: must be refreshing
    Wester Kiranov: it was
    sophia Placebo: im wondering how much dropping one can do at a time
    sophia Placebo: in non meditative state
    sophia Placebo: when you try to just calm
    sophia Placebo: or to clear your mind
    sophia Placebo: when you are angery or sad
    sophia Placebo: how far one can go with dropping?
    Wester Kiranov: i think it does depend on how much you have practiced dropping, how natual it feels to you
    sophia Placebo: true
    Wester Kiranov: anger and sadness are pretty tough to drop, but it can be done
    sophia Placebo: you need to drop more than anger to drop anger
    Wester Kiranov: first you have to notice that you can drop them, and then you have to be willing to let go
    sophia Placebo: pretty easy while sitting in nice place and talking friendly talk
    sophia Placebo: but even if you are used to drop
    Wester Kiranov: of your anger, and of the reasons you think you have to be angry, and your self-righteousness, etc. it does sound easier than it is
    sophia Placebo: how far one would go with dropping in those cases
    sophia Placebo: true
    sophia Placebo: though many times poeple just wanna show ther anger
    Wester Kiranov: yes
    sophia Placebo: dealing with it takes time , showing it would realse all the negative charges at once
    Wester Kiranov: it feels like relaese, but actually it jus solidifies the anger
    sophia Placebo: i think it is both
    Wester Kiranov: possibly

    Then Natasha Urvile came in, left, Sophia left and Natasha came in again.

    Natasha Urvile: HELLO ALL
    sophia Placebo: hi natasha
    Wester Kiranov: hi natasha
    Wester Kiranov: have you been here before?
    Natasha Urvile: yes
    Wester Kiranov: ok, then i can skip the introductory talk
    Wester Kiranov: we were talking about dropping anger and other difficult emotions
    sophia Placebo: ^^
    sophia Placebo: she dropped everything
    Wester Kiranov: :)
    sophia Placebo: well , see you soon wester :)
    Wester Kiranov: see you later
    Natasha Urvile: hi again
    Wester Kiranov: hi again
    Natasha Urvile: the other person is gone
    Wester Kiranov: yes, she just left
    We talked a bit more about meditation and then it was time to go.

    Natasha Urvile: if i may ask what u were discussing
    Wester Kiranov: we were talking about dropping anger. she wondered how much of it you can or should drop
    Natasha Urvile: ok
    Wester Kiranov: we had agreed so far that it needs quite a bit of practice, and it's easier to just show it, but not really better
    Natasha Urvile: yes in my view too one needs to control anger
    Natasha Urvile: but it comes with practice
    Wester Kiranov: i think control is just a first step
    Natasha Urvile: i mean if one meditates all these things happen automatically
    Wester Kiranov: true
    Natasha Urvile: u meditate?
    Wester Kiranov: not as much as i should :)
    Natasha Urvile: zen style may be?
    Natasha Urvile: ??
    Wester Kiranov: vipassana, if i have to give it a name
    Natasha Urvile: r u indian
    Wester Kiranov: no, i'm dutch
    Wester Kiranov: I do like the 9 second practice, as well
    Natasha Urvile: i have followed vipassana in my initial stage of meditation n strongly approve of it
    Wester Kiranov: and what do you do now, as mediation?
    Natasha Urvile: i have a guru (spiritual teacher now)
    Wester Kiranov: that's good
    Natasha Urvile: i follow shaktipath yoga
    Natasha Urvile: where guru awakens ur kundalini by touch n u continue meditating
    Wester Kiranov: ok
    Natasha Urvile: i did experience total dissolution in vipassana
    Natasha Urvile: have u heard of it
    Wester Kiranov: heard of shaktipath, or total dissolution? (answer: no/ yes)
    Natasha Urvile: did u experience total dissolution
    Wester Kiranov: don't think so
    Natasha Urvile: ok
    Natasha Urvile: i think u want to meditate now i will not disturb

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