2009.07.14 13:00 - philosophy of philosophy

    The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. The comments are by Mickorod Renard.


    A Yak with a jet pack?

    arabella Ella: is that a jet pack on your back Yak?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah its on my back
    arabella Ella: cool
    Yakuzza Lethecus: +
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s better wen i am exploring
    arabella Ella: yes i guess it gives you more power and lift?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: right no hight issues while flying
    arabella Ella: fantastic
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but sl makes problems so sometimes i won´t stop flying
    arabella Ella smiles
    arabella Ella: usual SL problems :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Ur really only attending the pab sessions ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: or do you still try to explore more ?
    arabella Ella: i still try to explore more but i also try to control my time on SL
    Yakuzza Lethecus: right i have that open pretty much all the time while i am a the comp

    arabella Ella: very sun burnt tonight
    Mickorod Renard: whats sun?
    Mickorod Renard: oh yes,,i remember
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hihi :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: where are you in england ?
    arabella Ella: sun is something you cant get away from here ... no need to even ask whether the weather was good :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,actually its been ok here so far
    arabella Ella: rain in London tho i just heard on TV
    Mickorod Renard: well its even been thunder storms here today
    Yakuzza Lethecus: we have still about 20C° outside
    Mickorod Renard: but nice generally
    Mickorod Renard: thats nice Yaku
    arabella Ella: here is must be close to 40 midday and sea temp is around 23
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it was pretty sunny today but only 25 C° so thats not too hot and not too cold
    Yakuzza Lethecus: how wet is the air then ?
    arabella Ella: too hot
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i guess you don´t feel the warm air that much
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok
    Mickorod Renard: here the humidity isnt so bad
    arabella Ella: we do i had to wait in a queue in my car and it was terrible
    arabella Ella: if you dont have AC
    arabella Ella: (i dont)
    Mickorod Renard: lol,,I wud have thought u wud have

    Yakuzza Lethecus: we could really use voice in here someday
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hello wester
    Eliza Madrigal: Here for just a few moments...

    Mickorod Renard: I think Stim would prefer voice in WoK

    Eliza Madrigal: Voice in PaB doesn't work so well because the logs help people stay connected even without being here 'in av'
    Mickorod Renard: hey,,posted the scribe on time eliza ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, BEAUTIFUL job Mick...really nice
    Mickorod Renard: ohh,,u read it?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i can´t imagine that somebody would really read the logs from the ,,non maintheme sessions"
    Mickorod Renard: ty
    Mickorod Renard: the scribe is a hortened version
    Mickorod Renard: shortened
    Eliza Madrigal: Imagine no more Mick... I often read them like morning papers :)
    arabella Ella: do you know what the idea behind the logs is Eliza?
    Mickorod Renard: with some individual artistic licence
    Eliza Madrigal: *YAkuzza rather
    Yakuzza Lethecus: at least i am more talkative in voice
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ups minute
    arabella Ella: i dont mind using voice at all
    arabella Ella: oh
    Eliza Madrigal: I can't say what the original idea was Ara, but for me they allow a continuity and flow
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I feel I get a chance to hear from 'everyone' not just those in my normal slots
    Mickorod Renard: I prefer chat rather than talk
    arabella Ella: and do you actually read most of the logs Eliza?
    arabella Ella: cos it must be massive :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't know if it is most...
    arabella Ella: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and I can't say all of it is 'reading' rather than skimming
    Eliza Madrigal: but yes, quite a few
    arabella Ella nods
    Mickorod Renard: even though I sort of dread doing the scribe,,I actually get alot of enjoyment and satisfaction doing it
    Eliza Madrigal: I gave up reading Salon.com for the logs I think... maybe a few other sites I'd been habitual about
    arabella Ella: how many logs does a scribe have to go through Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: 3 days worth,,so thats 12
    Mickorod Renard: although often some logs are not posted in time to do
    arabella Ella: wow quite a few
    Mickorod Renard: so its less
    Mickorod Renard: I am not a very confident person (in my opinion),,but I recomend everyone to have a go
    arabella Ella: well i guess one needs to have the time available to dedicate to doing the scribe :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes you worried a lot but did very well. I certainly haven't done what I set out to do, which would be more creative perhaps. The thing is, the conversations themselves are so interesting that what more is there to say?
    Eliza Madrigal: And yes, time is a real issue
    Eliza Madrigal: brb
    Mickorod Renard: I always worry I may take something and change its context
    Mickorod Renard: so I do my best not to,,but otherwise its quite good fun

    Mickorod Renard: its suprising what topics get covered outside when I am not usually here

    Yakuzza Lethecus: where have you been on ur friday happy hour ?

    Mickorod Renard: Fef,,, that top u r wearing must be worn out now,,I have never known ur avi to wear anything else
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Fefonz Quan: luckily Avi's dont sweat :)
    Mickorod Renard: hey,,more thunder and lightening here
    arabella Ella: nothing wears out ... or grows old ... er ... here :)


    Ball lightening

    Mickorod Renard: I saw ball lightening once,,has anyone else?
    arabella Ella: what is ball lightening?
    Mickorod Renard: its supposed to be rare
    arabella Ella: cool
    Fefonz Quan: how does it look Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: like footballs of lightening swirling around in the air
    Eliza Madrigal shakes head... think I'd remember that
    arabella Ella: sounds scarey tto me
    Wester Kiranov: sorry RL interfering. see you all some other time.
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Wester, nice to see you
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Wester!
    arabella Ella: bye Wester
    Mickorod Renard: some say they can enter a house and fly out again
    Mickorod Renard: bye wester
    Mickorod Renard: I am sure I read somewhere it is an impossible phenomena


    Harry potter and books in general

    Eliza Madrigal: I should get going. Harry Potter day here... film at midnight and chaos in the meantime :)
    arabella Ella: well lightening in itself is quite a phenomenon
    arabella Ella: enjoy Eliza bye
    Mickorod Renard: yes?,,is that a new film?
    Mickorod Renard: ok bye eliza
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Eliza, enjoy.
    Eliza Madrigal is going to look up ball lightning pictures later
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Bfn :)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: is the new harry potter already at the movies ?
    arabella Ella: i think so
    Mickorod Renard: not sure,,,
    arabella Ella: but i am not a fan
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, 15th july
    Fefonz Quan: yes
    arabella Ella: midnight today then as Eliza said :)
    Fefonz Quan: i made it to the fourth book
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,I think I have read them all
    Mickorod Renard: my lad was too lazy to read them to me
    Fefonz Quan: they were nice, i prefered Narnia though
    Yakuzza Lethecus: right i think i have read, hmm , nothing :)
    Mickorod Renard: I have never read nania,,which is odd cos i like nania's author
    Fefonz Quan: so you definitly should!
    Mickorod Renard: yes I know
    Mickorod Renard: i havnt really got a book on the go at the mom
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so you guy´s been reading already from childhood or did that come later ?
    Fefonz Quan: start with 'the lion, the witch and the wardrobe'
    Fefonz Quan: childhood
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean reading for fun and out of own interest
    Fefonz Quan: sure
    Fefonz Quan: i think this question phrased by Yaku can be spelled only after 1990...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: did ur parents also read much and also read out of books when you´ve been smaller ?
    Mickorod Renard: I started reading seriously when I had my son,,then i read hundreds of books to him Yaku
    Fefonz Quan: well i guess,
    Fefonz Quan: i am reading since the age of 4
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,i wish my mum had read more to me
    arabella Ella: i have always read books for my interest and pleasure but my parents would buy books for me but would read magazines more than books or readers digest
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am thinking much of the issue and even the issue that i never percieved reading as something ,,normal"
    arabella Ella: why not Yak?
    Mickorod Renard: well,i tended to read comics Yaku
    Mickorod Renard: as a kid
    arabella Ella: me too
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t know i think it´s related to the issue that nobody was ever reading much here
    Fefonz Quan: here is where?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: here is my parents when i was smaller :P
    Mickorod Renard: I noticed when I was in france that most people didnt read like the brits did
    Fefonz Quan: i should have guessed that one :)
    arabella Ella: i think i got hooked on reading at school when we were encouraged to borrow library books
    Fefonz Quan: as an adult i feel we don't have so much time as children, so people(i) tend to read much less
    arabella Ella nods
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i was also reading library book mostly as a child
    Fefonz Quan: books*
    Mickorod Renard: mmmm..dunno Fef,,I read quite alot still,,sometimes only science journals,,other times a good book/fiction
    Fefonz Quan: i read quite a lot now, but i don't work now, so it's easy :)
    arabella Ella: yes mick but today we got DVDs movies internet etc to compete with reading books
    Fefonz Quan: i did read a lot on business trips
    Fefonz Quan: agree ara, and i think this competition not always does us good
    arabella Ella nods
    arabella Ella: altho it has pros and cons too
    Mickorod Renard: when I was living away..i started reading all the old books I had inherited,,stuff that was perhaps 50yr old and more
    Mickorod Renard: and classics
    arabella Ella: i have a question ...
    Mickorod Renard: I prefer reading in the classic language now
    arabella Ella: do you think the books we are brought up on ... many of which depict life in a very idealistic way ... give us a ... i dunno ... a distorted picture of life?
    arabella Ella: in the sense they may lead us to expect life to be more ideal than it ever can be?
    Fefonz Quan: intruiging, Ara
    Mickorod Renard: maybe,,but perhaps one with a better moral vision
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i think that is only the case for most child books
    Fefonz Quan: in a way i prefer them on movies, that do the same, in somewhat more agressive way
    arabella Ella: ye
    arabella Ella: yes
    Mickorod Renard: for idealistic reading i prefer Rupert
    arabella Ella: mmmmmm
    Fefonz Quan: i agree with Yaku too, and there are also some children book that have challenging things too. (Bambi's mother died...)
    arabella Ella: owwwww
    Mickorod Renard: and rupert is dual,,you have reading and the poems too
    Fefonz Quan whispers 'who is Rupert'
    Mickorod Renard: ahh,Rupert is for the privilaged few
    arabella Ella: Rupert is a bear who has great adventures for children in comic style books
    Fefonz Quan: ok, you can count me out ;-)
    Fefonz Quan: (>mick)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: I really had issues because real life is more or less decisions like the trolly problem while books and movies in my childhood had only ,,good and evil" so an utilitarian picture was far away and alienated for me
    Mickorod Renard: he he


    Yaku philosophizes

    Fefonz Quan: utilitarian?
    arabella Ella: trolly problem?
    Mickorod Renard: rupert is in yearly comic style books
    Yakuzza Lethecus: there are 10 people in a bus
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the bus has defect brakes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: you see that and ur together with a fat man on a bridge
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the bus is comming
    Fefonz Quan: (and there is a bomb if it goes over 70 miles an hour, yeah!)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and you think you can stop the bus when you through the fat man in front of the bus
    Yakuzza Lethecus: you sacrifice one for 10
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but usually its with a trolly
    arabella Ella: oh i hate those philosophical problems
    Mickorod Renard: they seem cool books Yaku
    arabella Ella: because nothing is ever so clear in real life
    Yakuzza Lethecus: right
    Fefonz Quan nods to Ara
    arabella Ella: these are philosophical ethical problems mick
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but you say a company is in insolvency
    arabella Ella: like you have twins and they are drowing and equidistant which one do you decide to save if you can only save one?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so many people loos their jobs maybe
    arabella Ella hates those problems they are generally quite unreal
    Yakuzza Lethecus: crap bad example
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but its just a way to get away from the basic good and evil picture
    Fefonz Quan: agree with ara. they are good for philosophical argiments though
    arabella Ella: i dont enjoy them for philosophical arguments either
    Fefonz Quan: well, in Narnia you get a Lion for a little child, and you need to choose (won't tell what happens for Mick)
    arabella Ella: he he
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so ara would you say philosophy is out of the world and unreal in any way they ?
    Mickorod Renard: ty Fef
    Fefonz Quan: so in the context of a story i think these problems get much more 'real' and relevant
    arabella Ella: Yak this is only one small branch of moral philosophy which often deals with utilitarianism ... there is a lot more to philosophy than just that
    Fefonz Quan: i would say they are very relevant Yaku, but within a wider context of event, not in such sterile environment
    arabella Ella: in these ethical philosophical problems you are often given an impossible choice between two options ... where it is practically difficult if not impossible to decide
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but how understanding the relevance when nobody even talks about basic issues to learn the language to anybody
    arabella Ella: real life is much more fuzzy and complicated
    arabella Ella: not sure what you mean Yak?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t consider me a philosopher but when nobody is discussing and learning terms to describe moral problems how will we learn do describe more complex situations then ,,just the trolly problem"
    Mickorod Renard: I like the idea that you can stimulate decisions in the mind that may pre empt a real life dilemna,when in rl time may not be on your side
    Mickorod Renard: in a way i think dreams work like this too
    Fefonz Quan: Yaku, i don't think any of us here meant those issues are worthless to discuss. i am sure they are useful to think about in some contexts
    Mickorod Renard: be prepared,,thats a good boy scout moto
    arabella Ella: for me, they are just not my favourite area of philosophy ... i mean how often are we faced with such choices in life?
    arabella Ella: and there are lots of other philosophical ethical positions which i find to have more value
    Mickorod Renard: its the unexpected that catches you out Ara
    arabella Ella: it would catch you out anyway mick regardless of how prepared you are
    Mickorod Renard: maybe
    Fefonz Quan: the trolly also brings the prices of each decision to extremes, which makes it so dificult
    Mickorod Renard: whatever you do Yaku,,dont get into Ayne Rand
    Yakuzza Lethecus: do i have a tail ?
    arabella Ella: that is why it is part of a system called utilitarianism Fefonz which implies the greatest good to the greatest number
    Yakuzza Lethecus: do i look like a wolf :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: am i birric :) ?
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    arabella Ella: quantifying ethical decisions - utilitarianism
    arabella Ella: he he
    Mickorod Renard: got ya
    Fefonz Quan: yep! and considering this, did i mention here that i found out she had a close group of fans and disciples in the early seventies, the famous of tehm is Alan Greenspan?
    Fefonz Quan: (for Ayne Rand()
    arabella Ella: really?
    arabella Ella: crazy people
    Mickorod Renard: I knew she had an inner circle
    Fefonz Quan: and thinkig about it, we can see how he implemented those ideas, and where it got us
    Fefonz Quan: philosophy in action
    arabella Ella: Yak if you take the trolley problem you could also use Kant's categorical imperative and ask - if i was the guy with the trolley would i wish the other guyv to push me in front of the bus?
    Mickorod Renard: ioronically, even though I dont like ayne Rand,,I find her words haunting me and I do use them in understanding human nature
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i didn´t say that i would make any decision, i just mentioned utilitarism and the issue that childbooks are very dualistic
    arabella Ella: yes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: most of the childbooks don´t mention more then good and evil
    arabella Ella: true
    arabella Ella: also romantic novels
    Mickorod Renard: very true Yaku
    arabella Ella: which many adults read too
    Fefonz Quan: and swords, and magics, and castels :)
    arabella Ella: angels too
    Fefonz Quan: and eating honey with your friends in a nice morning
    arabella Ella: yummy
    Mickorod Renard: I dont think kids anlyse the stories like us adults do,,so thier books have very simple messages
    arabella Ella: picnics in the park on the banks of the river :)
    Mickorod Renard: we adults like to complicate the world
    Fefonz Quan: hanging around with black panthers and grey bears
    arabella Ella: he he
    Mickorod Renard: bill badger
    Fefonz Quan: btw Yaku - i believe you have to learn the (even philosophical) basic before getting complicated
    arabella Ella: brb need some more aftersun for my sunburn :)
    Mickorod Renard: owww
    Yakuzza Lethecus: sure, but where to learn it then when nobody likes the topics ?
    Mickorod Renard: well that is an issue I struggled with Yaku
    Fefonz Quan: well, i meant that the basics are good and bad, right and wrong etc.
    Mickorod Renard: the problem is,,that every variant in philosophy seems plausable,,until u read the next one
    Fefonz Quan: and then when you get older you find out that 'lived happily ever after' was too short description of RL :)
    Mickorod Renard: like ara has said to me on many occasions,,philo raises more questions than it answers
    Mickorod Renard: he he he ,,right on Fef
    Fefonz Quan: btw - i guess there are quite a few that like those topics Yaku.
    Mickorod Renard: I had this preconcieved idea that philosophers have all the answers,,but in fact they just have more questions but no answers
    arabella Ella: back
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t believe its the fat man, i belive in rl its the company that gets the debs from the mother to protect the holding
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i think those things are to learn the language
    Fefonz Quan: That's what i like about our gourp here Mick - emphirical philosophy, not detached from daily life
    Yakuzza Lethecus: obviously they are just metaphors and i really don´t consider to know much about phil still, and i know ara is a phil prof
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,a much more handy style
    Fefonz Quan: debs?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: depts ?
    Fefonz Quan: debts?
    Mickorod Renard: debts?
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Mickorod Renard: owes money?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: right
    Mickorod Renard: as in debited
    arabella Ella: hey sorry Yak ... I am not a philo prof
    Mickorod Renard: but shortened
    arabella Ella: i studied philo but i am not a prof
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, phd :P
    Fefonz Quan: lost you with the company Yaku... Ara, are you phil Prof? i didn't know
    arabella Ella: yes
    arabella Ella: sorry
    arabella Ella: no
    arabella Ella: i am not a prof
    arabella Ella: funny threads here
    Fefonz Quan: so just pro ;-)
    arabella Ella: he he
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i just have the issue that nobody even tries to describe complciated issues, its cool to talk like ,,its the corrupt managers" or what ever but nobody tries to understand things often.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t say to be very intelligent or cablable of doing that
    Mickorod Renard: this is true yaku,,but often people are looking from diferent perspectives
    Fefonz Quan: i start to suspect Yaku don't have enough geeks around - not that it has no down side to have them ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: a good diolog inside a mixed group is excelent
    Fefonz Quan: they wear the same cloths all teh time!!!
    arabella Ella: he he
    arabella Ella: clothes that never stink too :)
    Mickorod Renard: I find it uprising though,,that in many groups on sl there is a strong wish to avoid confrontation and upsetting people
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Mickorod Renard: suprising*
    Fefonz Quan: uprising was nice there
    Mickorod Renard: maybe its cos we cannot be sure,,through lack of eye contact,,how offended people are getting
    Mickorod Renard: also there is a risk of loosing people from groups
    Fefonz Quan: Sorry to ask, did we offend you Yaku?
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Mickorod Renard: what I am sayin is,,that in debate in sl,,people dont always feel they can say what they mean
    Fefonz Quan: as well as in RL, and sometimes even more Mick
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no, but the problem is that i had the feeling that i had to defend something that isn´t certain for me but when i read about learning issues depending on the social status and language acuisition then even discussions at home are an important factor for the development of children
    Mickorod Renard: very true,,sl is very free in most respects
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and philosophy is often just a toolset to structure discussions
    Yakuzza Lethecus: philosophy doens´t exist for philosophy it provieds examples and perspectives
    Mickorod Renard: I think that is a valid issue Yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but i am no professional i try to see it in that way aotherwise it wouldn´t make any sense
    arabella Ella: philosophy is the mother of all other disciplines ... and today philosophy often acts as 'moderator' or 'police' for other discipliens especially for ethical issues like stem cell research
    Fefonz Quan: i just find it that trying to defend philosophy in that forum is bouncing into an open door
    Mickorod Renard: although,,I have found that in Philo groups,,there is often more going on in a battle of language knowledge than actually on philosophy
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so i am in the conflict of trying to understand what went wrong maybe for myself and finding new tools and learn to describe experiences and thougths better
    Fefonz Quan: do you feel something went wrong due to lack of good desciption?
    Fefonz Quan: description*
    Mickorod Renard: I am always saying something wrong,,as I too have a limited academic language
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it is a factor there are many influences
    arabella Ella: philosophy can be discussed at different levels tho
    Yakuzza Lethecus: for me it´s not all about phil
    arabella Ella: and philosophy has many meanings and applications too
    Mickorod Renard: I like the plain english level
    Fefonz Quan: can you elaborate about that one Yaku?
    arabella Ella: there is what is called common sense philosophy too mick
    Mickorod Renard: I have never come across that one Ara
    Yakuzza Lethecus: for example when there is no discussion to the end at home and its always just ,,because sombody said so"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: when ur in school and there is no help but only pressue but ur unable to say what the exact issue is
    Yakuzza Lethecus: you just feel stupid because ur unable to express it
    arabella Ella nods
    Mickorod Renard: I think some of this problem stems from the devide between science,,and philosophy
    Yakuzza Lethecus: for me the problem is not philosophy itself
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i also agree that many people are turned off/bored/intimidated by intelectual conversatins and reasoning
    Mickorod Renard: yes they are,,getting into a group of similatr minded people would help ,,in rl,,Yaku
    Fefonz Quan: it's like many people are afraid of numbers and mathematics
    Yakuzza Lethecus raisies his finger on that too
    Mickorod Renard: me too
    Fefonz Quan: means you agree or afraid? :)
    Mickorod Renard: you are quite young Yaku,,yes?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: 27
    Yakuzza Lethecus: aleady, i didn´t attend college because of math.
    Mickorod Renard: well,,some of these issues are more frustrating at that age
    Fefonz Quan: well 27 is not THAT young
    Mickorod Renard: when u get older in life,,the puzzle unravels,,and you see that everyone struggles the same..and its confidence that helps
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i think much about envrionment and what got more or less tacid influences on ur
    Yakuzza Lethecus: anyway i believe even everyone understands something different under terms like phil and it was just an example for more complex ethical issues taken out of an philosophical problem
    Mickorod Renard: I still ask lots of questions,,and I think that is great
    Yakuzza Lethecus: anyway, its getting too late
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night
    Fefonz Quan: good night Yaku, thanks for the intruiging conversation!
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,cool,,nite nite Yaku,,we must contin this debate again
    Mickorod Renard: its close to my heart too
    arabella Ella: nite Yaku
    Mickorod Renard: it is a strange observation,,i have had much of my life amongst people that dont ask questions
    Fefonz Quan: yes, not many people ask to many questions
    Mickorod Renard: and felt i was a bit odd
    Mickorod Renard: but now I see the opposite,,that its odd not to ask questions
    Fefonz Quan: infact i can understand both approaches Mick.
    Fefonz Quan: sometimes keeping things simple and not dive too deep can be a good way to get around
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I often say,,ignorance is bliss
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Fefonz Quan: yep... i think it is a subtle line between not thinking at all and thinking too much
    Mickorod Renard: yes,good point..thinking too much becomes a torture
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I had best be off,,thanks for comming fef,,great to see you
    Fefonz Quan: Good to see you too Mick! good night
    Mickorod Renard: I am going now Ara,,thanks for commin
    arabella Ella: bye mick
    Mickorod Renard: byeeeeeee

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