2009.07.15 13:00 - Active - Passive Thoughts

The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

Fefonz celebrates also his first GoC shift in his new time slot!

SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Hey Sophia! :)
SophiaSharon Larnia is sitting quietly
genesis Zhangsun: Hi
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Genesis
Fefonz Quan: Hey Gen!
genesis Zhangsun: hey!
genesis Zhangsun: I decided to come to part of this session anyway
Fefonz Quan: you came for the guard shift :)
genesis Zhangsun: yes :)
genesis Zhangsun: how are you two?
SophiaSharon Larnia: im good, am thought out tho, nice place to be sometimes :p
Fefonz Quan: very good, thanks.
genesis Zhangsun: thought out SophiaSharon as in spacey?
Fefonz Quan goes to check this place in his dictionary :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: well, you consider ideas, and turn them over in your mind, tasting the, trying them out, you do that long enough and ralize there is a quiet place in between
SophiaSharon Larnia: where you rest
Fefonz Quan: sounds like a nice plase indeed.
genesis Zhangsun: so you have been in a period of trying ideas on vigorously and now you feel it is time to let them rest
SophiaSharon Larnia: it requires a bit of a push, in my case
Eliza Madrigal: Wow Genesis, great hair!
genesis Zhangsun: hey ELiza
Fefonz Quan: and meanwhile, magically, they continue to do their work behind the curtains
genesis Zhangsun: same to you ELia
genesis Zhangsun: *Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks :)
Fefonz Quan: Hey Eliza!
SophiaSharon Larnia: im hoping fefonz, that is what usually happens
SophiaSharon Larnia: but am not thinking about it <grins/>
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Eliza :)
Fefonz Quan: :) like the known examle with the white elephant
Fefonz Quan: (which i find wrong, btw).
Eliza Madrigal: a little delayed...sorry.. Hi Fef, SophiaSharon, Gen :)
genesis Zhangsun: what is the white elephant? ganesh?
genesis Zhangsun: i must have missed this
Fefonz Quan: no, some say that if i told you NOT to think of a white elephant, you can't avoid it
SophiaSharon Larnia: ahhh
genesis Zhangsun: now all I can think about is Ganesh so it seems to have worked :)
genesis Zhangsun: hi shyama
SophiaSharon Larnia: haha
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Shyama
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Shyama
Fefonz Quan: Hi SHyama
Fefonz Quan: when i am told that, i immediately think about red elephant, and there you go.
SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: haha
SophiaSharon Larnia: i would like to reach a quieter place without the push, though
genesis Zhangsun: are you pushing for a quieter place?
genesis Zhangsun: how so?
SophiaSharon Larnia: not directly, i think about a lot of things, all interelated
SophiaSharon Larnia: i dont think this period of rest can be found by pushing for it
SophiaSharon Larnia: it is a side effect
SophiaSharon Larnia: what your are worn out
Eliza Madrigal nods
SophiaSharon Larnia: when you are*
Fefonz Quan: yes, i also find myself sometimes entangled in a spagetti of ideas here
SophiaSharon Larnia smiles
genesis Zhangsun: yes I agree with the side effects its pretty interesting to note when the more "worn out" period occur
SophiaSharon Larnia: like dancing yourself to exhaustion
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh? interesting
genesis Zhangsun: well at least for me sometimes I don't notice when I am wearing myself out until I am in fact really worn out
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
genesis Zhangsun: I am trying to notice this stuff earlier
genesis Zhangsun: prevent exhaustion
Fefonz Quan: yes, it is important i think.
SophiaSharon Larnia: duly noted, what you said about noticing when this occurs, is interesting too
Fefonz Quan: 'know yourself' should encompass those realms too
SophiaSharon Larnia: do you mean what are thoughts going on at the time, what you are thinking about?
genesis Zhangsun: is that to me or fefonz?
SophiaSharon Larnia: to you Genesis
genesis Zhangsun: you are asking what types of thoughts wear me out?
SophiaSharon Larnia: no, I'm noting the idea to notice where I become exhausted, if what i am thinking about are the same things, and wondered if that is what you meant
Fefonz Quan: Hey Mick
SophiaSharon Larnia: H Mickorod
genesis Zhangsun: could be the same things, could be the way you are thinking about it
Shyama Sheryffe: hi Mick
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Mick!
Mickorod Renard: Hi Guys
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: hey,,its Shy
genesis Zhangsun: I just know for myself that often I can get very excited about a train of thought
SophiaSharon Larnia: me too
Eliza Madrigal nods and smiles
genesis Zhangsun: almost seeing the break through on the otherside
genesis Zhangsun: and sort of racing my way to get there
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes!
genesis Zhangsun: and then find that my mind is just racing
genesis Zhangsun: and getting sort of "high" off the feeling of racing
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
genesis Zhangsun: reinforcing my feeling that this train of thought is important
genesis Zhangsun: then gettting stuck in that until it sort of wears me out
Mickorod Renard: yes,,i feel I have become carried away with thoughts before too
Eliza Madrigal: So often what goes on with me is opposite of what I think at first. I think "I need to rest", and immediately get a surge of activity going, or visa versa
genesis Zhangsun: there is a fine line between "flowing" and "racing"
Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed
Fefonz Quan: yes, for Eliza, sometimes feeling makes better judgment there
SophiaSharon Larnia: as Pema said, take it slowlyyyy :)
Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes confusion is a really good sign. You've put your heart into something and overloaded the brain :)
Mickorod Renard: my mum used to tell me I had an over active imagination,,ever since I have had to keep it on reins like a crazy horse
SophiaSharon Larnia: lol Mick
Fefonz Quan: 'Confusion, will be my epitaph'....
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Shyama Sheryffe: thats called creativity Mick
Eliza Madrigal: Moms mean well :)
Mickorod Renard: maybe,,strangely enough,,when alowed to get crazy it seems to be quite productive
Fefonz Quan: yes it is, breaking the limits in a way
Mickorod Renard: is this at all linked to what your consversation was about?
Fefonz Quan: (attach the link, since my song refernence went under the radar... :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoHzjkdeb1U
Fefonz Quan: think it is Mick
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Mick
Mickorod Renard: there u go,,intuition
Shyama Sheryffe: what r we talking about lol
Fefonz Quan: i just read yesterday some philosophical conversation where some claimed the mind can't come with any new idea
Fefonz Quan: just combine new concepts
Fefonz Quan: old concepts***
Eliza Madrigal: Well it builds on what is already, right?
Eliza Madrigal: And maybe it is a matter of what one calls "New"
SophiaSharon Larnia: am not sure if I beleive that, science reveals new information that needs to be reconsidered with previous assumptions
Eliza Madrigal: to take two things which have never been combined before and use them in a different way qualifies as a kind of 'new' to me... but not 'thin air' new
Fefonz Quan: yes, i agree with all that, i also found that argument a little extreme.
Fefonz Quan: or redicoulus :)
Mickorod Renard: yes, i read a book recently about a big convent in another universe,,and in that convent was an order that retained all the idea's that had ever been thought up,,therefore summising that everything that anyone could dream up had already been catalogued
SophiaSharon Larnia: like an akasha file
Eliza Madrigal nods
Fefonz Quan: could and had are different mick
Mickorod Renard: but its sad to think that that scenario could be true,,we enjoy the idea of creativity and new idea's
SophiaSharon Larnia: that we are just remembering
Fefonz Quan: if you meant 'had', there is room for new ones
Shyama Sheryffe: perhaps newness is a bit relative...some things r new to us but old for someone else
Fefonz Quan: and i wouldn't worry mick, i guess it can be almost methematically proved it is not reasonable :)
Eliza Madrigal: There is a sense often though, of only learning what has been there all along
Fefonz Quan: not sure i agree Eliza, when we talk about 'ordinary' knowledge
Mickorod Renard: well, one thing is for sure,,many things have been experienced before,,but the human race has not learnt from them
Shyama Sheryffe: i think i undersnd what Eliza means...
Mickorod Renard: me too
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes maybe that is a distinction... though when talking about memes (very much ordinary knowledge?), ideas might be implemented by people other than those who first saw them but shrugged it off as unoriginal ?
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Arisia
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ari :))
Arisia Vita: Hi all...
Mickorod Renard: and sometimes not learning what has been learnt before
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Arisia
Fefonz Quan: hi Ari
Shyama Sheryffe: Hi Arisia
Fefonz Quan: yes, i agree that not all people are original...
Eliza Madrigal: hehe..not exactly what I was saying Fef
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
SophiaSharon Larnia smiles
Fefonz Quan: yes, mine also came a little off :)
Fefonz Quan: i did try to say that information-wise, we do find data that is new to us.
Fefonz Quan: than on other level, sometimes unlearning is the way to go
SophiaSharon Larnia: that is harder than learning, i think
Shyama Sheryffe: i think it was Plato who sadi that all learning is remembering
Fefonz Quan: i agree. we learn how to stretch and grasp, not used to relax and let go
Fefonz Quan: i didn;t know (remember) that Shyama :)
Shyama Sheryffe: lol
Shyama Sheryffe: now u do
Mickorod Renard: bit before your time Fef?
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes..and Graham Greene who said that all novels are rembembered not invented
Fefonz Quan: 2 bits maybe :)
Eliza Madrigal: haha Oh goodness
genesis Zhangsun: yes and unlearning your process of learning as we were talking about earlier is also quite difficult
Mickorod Renard: thats interesting way of thinking Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: but that is quoted by someone who has never written a novel
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fefonz Quan: interesting Eliza indeed
Fefonz Quan: somehow it seems he considers 'remembering' as passive thinking while 'inventing' as active
Mickorod Renard: this brings us back to life in general,,and our individual story that we play out
Eliza Madrigal nods
Fefonz Quan: and he find out that his thinking is passive, 'unintentional' in a way
Shyama Sheryffe: hm..what is passive..
Fefonz Quan: sounds like GG was doing wu-wei without nameing it
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes maybe in some parts of life
Fefonz Quan: i meant passive as 'without intentional effort' or something like that
Mickorod Renard: maybe this is what we do when we seperate our thoughts while apreciating the presence of being?
Mickorod Renard: or whatever its called
SophiaSharon Larnia: is that passive?
Fefonz Quan: seperate our thoughs?
Shyama Sheryffe: listening might be very active...
Eliza Madrigal: Allow them to float up and attentively notice.. hmm yes
Mickorod Renard: but perhaps we close down the active inventive
Mickorod Renard: shut out the noise
Mickorod Renard: of active thoughts
Eliza Madrigal: create a nest for the egg :) Same imagery as a person on a meditation cushion?
Eliza Madrigal grins
genesis Zhangsun: but in a non intentional wu wei way like Fefonz mentions?
Fefonz Quan: i warn you ahead that his session is going to be titles 'passive-active thoughts', so this is the time to say it is not proper :)
Mickorod Renard: we will have to refer to it as PaT
Shyama Sheryffe: intentional activity can be quite mechanical, is it active then ?
Fefonz Quan: think i may have dropped 'passive' into the conversation wrongly. my english nuances ability is not that high. i meant that there are thought GG might feel as 'I create/invent them' and other he feels as 'they are created somehow, and i observe them as memory'
Mickorod Renard: thats far to hard for me to think about Shy
Fefonz Quan: and that goes for Shyama's intentionality question as well
Eliza Madrigal: yes...like incubation and hatching...already developed in the egg
genesis Zhangsun: so Mick in doing APAPB
genesis Zhangsun: you are saying that you fall into a more "passive/receptive"
Mickorod Renard: eeek
genesis Zhangsun: as opposed to active/inventive mode
genesis Zhangsun: what? its long to type out :)
Mickorod Renard: well,,there is a risk that everything is invented in the mind,,whatever that is,,but yes,,that was what I was thinking
genesis Zhangsun: its an intereting observation...I think all of us who have tried it would describe it as such
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Fefonz Quan: in a way, but in different words
genesis Zhangsun: but at the same time passive v. active is dualism
genesis Zhangsun: so it can't be entirely passive or entirely active
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes different owrds
genesis Zhangsun: get my drift?
genesis Zhangsun: this is wu wei
Fefonz Quan: yes, agree with that, can't be entirely either.
genesis Zhangsun: riding something out to its natural end
Fefonz Quan: moreover, i think we regularly confused them , delusion ourselves
genesis Zhangsun: much like earlier we were talking about "flowing" which is more following thoughts to their natural end as opposed to "racing" which is to cling to thoughts unnaturally
Mickorod Renard: sounds like my brain is close to blowing a fuse
SophiaSharon Larnia smiles at Mick
genesis Zhangsun: haha whys that mick?
genesis Zhangsun: too complicated?
Fefonz Quan: do we have spare part here?
Shyama Sheryffe: lol
Mickorod Renard: yea,,maybe its too late here
Fefonz Quan: parts*
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Fefonz Quan: flowing/racing are more to my taste
Mickorod Renard: I see the analogy now Fef
SophiaSharon Larnia: i blow fuses regularly, just wait a minute and trip the switch ;p
Mickorod Renard: (just checking what analogy means,,,sounds good though)
Shyama Sheryffe: sometimes its better to wonder than try to understand by force, lol
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
Eliza Madrigal: understand by force, wow, what a phrase Shy
Eliza Madrigal: that is what we try to do...how silly
genesis Zhangsun: always wonder :)
Fefonz Quan: sounds like eating by force, ousch
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I have tried that with my son,,doesnt work well when they get bigger
Fefonz Quan: the eating? ;-)
Mickorod Renard: the understanding
Fefonz Quan: yes i thought so.
Mickorod Renard: he he
genesis Zhangsun: no nothing can be forced but nice to have the capacity to see when there is an opening starting
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
Fefonz Quan: one of the most surprising phenomena i found on the way is that sometimes when you reduce teh force and loosen your grip, everything fals into place
genesis Zhangsun: yes
Fefonz Quan: except typos
Mickorod Renard: yes i have felt that fef,,some reports about alowing the subconcious to find the answers
genesis Zhangsun: i was reading about yin and yang principles, which is based on dualities
Fefonz Quan: yes mick, but also in a broader sense
genesis Zhangsun: the idea is if you want something in one direction you should do something in the opposite direction
genesis Zhangsun: like politics swinging hard from the right to the left
Eliza Madrigal: one pouring into another perhaps rather than splitting either/or? Ah, counterbalance
Mickorod Renard: that sounds like my wifes logic
genesis Zhangsun: so trying to understand something and to do that completely letting go seems consistent with that
Mickorod Renard: I never let her drive me now
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Shyama Sheryffe: lol
genesis Zhangsun: hehe
genesis Zhangsun: well I will get going :)
genesis Zhangsun: nice to see you all
genesis Zhangsun: take care
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Gen, Bye
Mickorod Renard: be well Gen
SophiaSharon Larnia: you too Genesis :)
Shyama Sheryffe: bye Genesis
Fefonz Quan: bye Gen
Eliza Madrigal: I need to go too...so tired. Bye Shy, SophiaSharon, Ari, Fef and Mick :)
Fefonz Quan: "you want to become whole, let yourself be partial. If you want to become straight, let yourself be crooked. If you want to become full, let yourself be empty. If you want to be reborn, let yourself die. If you want to be given everything, give everything up. "
Fefonz Quan: bye Eliza
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Eliza!
Fefonz Quan: (from the Tao teh ching)
Mickorod Renard: bye
Mickorod Renard: eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Nice Fef! Thanks!
Arisia Vita: bye all, good to see you
SophiaSharon Larnia: lovely Fefonz!
Shyama Sheryffe: me, 2 goodnigth all
Fefonz Quan: bye ari
Mickorod Renard: bye shy
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Ari, bye Shyama
Mickorod Renard: Bye Ari
Fefonz Quan: bye Shyama
Mickorod Renard: lol, its quiet now,,but just remembered I was late
SophiaSharon Larnia: dinner time here, am going as well, take care :))
Mickorod Renard: bye S S
Fefonz Quan: Good night Mick, Sophiasharon
Mickorod Renard: looks like u goin too
Mickorod Renard: nite Fef
Fefonz Quan: well thought you are, so should i stay alone :)
Fefonz Quan: nite Mick
Mickorod Renard: he he ,,I guess I had best go too
Mickorod Renard: nite mate
Fefonz Quan: _/!\_