2009.07.18 07:00 - Is There A Same Me?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was sophia Placebo. The comments are by sophia Placebo.

    Lots of questions have been raised in this session .What dose dropping ,playing ,preception and self means ? Do thses words raise the same meaning to you as it dose to me ?

    Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
    sophia Placebo: hello pema !
    Pema Pera: Lovely fairy tale outfit!
    sophia Placebo: ty ^^
    Pema Pera: I saw it earlier too, but didn't get a chance to comment, with the fun intense conversation :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Scathach!
    sophia Placebo: hello scatha
    sophia Placebo: yes morning conversation was intersting
    Scathach Rhiadra: tha fish?
    Scathach Rhiadra: the*
    Pema Pera: the fish didn't talk that much this morning :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Pema Pera: yes, it was great to have Bertram jumping in so completely upon visiting for the first time!
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes it was
    sophia Placebo: he just asked too deep questions
    sophia Placebo: for the first time , lol im getting paranoid
    Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
    Pema Pera: I'm impressed, Sophia, you always seem so cool :-)
    sophia Placebo: i have extra time i guess :P
    sophia Placebo: thank you ^^
    Pema Pera: something tells me that he has been thinking deeply about those topics for a long time already . . . .
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes it would seem so
    Pema Pera: we meet people here in snapshots of their life, like walking into an ongoing movie, without any idea of whether we walk in at the beginning, middle or near the end of a long plot . . .


    sophia Placebo: im still thinking of dropping
    sophia Placebo: what exactly you mean by that ?
    Pema Pera: the simplest way in which I have tried to describe how we can use the 9 second breaks is to say "drop what you have to see what you are"
    sophia Placebo: hi ara
    Pema Pera: First of all, it is not necessary, of course, to use the 9 secs for trying to do that
    Pema Pera: Hi Arabella!
    arabella Ella: Hiya Sophia Pema Scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara
    Pema Pera: There are many ways to use the 9 secs, as you please, but if you'd like to have a single simple suggestion, that's what I originally wrote and said.
    Pema Pera: Now the question is indeed what it means to "drop"
    Pema Pera: in short: to drop overly strong identifications with the roles we play
    Pema Pera: I can say: I am a man, not a woman; I am from Holland, not from another country; I am an astronomer, etc -- but it would be more precise to say: I HAVE a male gender, I HAVE a nationality that is Dutch, I HAVE a profession that is that of astronomer -- none of all those tell me whom I really am. In order to find out more of what I really am, it would be a good start to drop the idenfication with what I have
    Vajra Radikal: namaste all
    Pema Pera: Hi Vajra!
    sophia Placebo: some strongly presenting over the surface thoughts ideas and feelings are easly to be aproach cause they appaer so clearly , but how far one can go with dropping
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Vajra
    arabella Ella: Hiya Vajira
    sophia Placebo: hi vajra
    Pema Pera: Note that I don't suggest that we forget our identities: identities are useful. Rather, I suggest that we wear our identities lightly, without fully identifying with them and forgetting other aspects of ourselves
    Vajra Radikal: pema what you are mentioning sounds like the 5 aggregates
    sophia Placebo: hello sophia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everyone :)
    arabella Ella: Hiya SophiaSharon
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello SophiaSharon
    Pema Pera: Perhaps dropping in your case, Sophia, would be close to seeing yourself as a symbol, would that make sense?
    Vajra Radikal: hi sophia
    sophia Placebo: say more vajra
    Pema Pera: Hi SophiaSharon!


    Vajra Radikal: the 5 aggregates forms a part of the analisys of emptiness
    sophia Placebo: no ^^
    Vajra Radikal: those 5 aggregates are the descriptors we assign to everything
    Vajra Radikal: including oneself
    Vajra Radikal: thus stuff like gender
    Vajra Radikal: size
    Vajra Radikal: good or bad
    Vajra Radikal: and the problem of all opf the 5 aggregates
    Vajra Radikal: is that they depend on personal perception+thus they dont describe reality
    Pema Pera: yes, aggregates are attributes, properties of roles associated with us, not what we really are
    sophia Placebo: that would make everything fall into theses five no ?
    arabella Ella: this is intruiging ... but puzzling ... as although there is more to a person than eg gender and size ... why does gender for example not describe reality too?
    Vajra Radikal: as pema mentions oneself is more transcendent than the descriptors attached to self
    Vajra Radikal: well at keast in buddhism self is more subtle than gender
    Pema Pera: the pictures shown in a movie describe the reality of the movie when seen as a story; but what you ask what is really there in front of you, it's not real people but a play of light -- so it depends how you ask the question, Ara
    Pema Pera: your body is also not what you ultimately are -- you have a body, I would say, rather than you are a body
    arabella Ella: even in RL though all we perceive is often dependent on light too right?
    Pema Pera: besides, when we talk about a body, we always talk about our particular interpretations of that body
    Pema Pera: well, the movie was a metaphor, you can't push that too far, but probably pretty far :-)
    Vajra Radikal: precisely sl is as based on perceptions as firstlife
    Vajra Radikal: and this is as real as fl is
    arabella Ella nods
    Pema Pera: Sophia, can you tell us more about what was weird or unsettling for you about the idea of dropping?
    arabella Ella: i can see what you mean concerning body as shape (body) is transient and malleable too

    Words and Images...

    sophia Placebo: hmm , i want to make sure im not falling in language gap
    sophia Placebo: not to mention personal and cultural diffrences
    sophia Placebo: i for example used the word craeture when i described huamans
    sophia Placebo: ^^ mick said this is like the word beast or something
    Pema Pera: oh, I think he was just joking :-)
    sophia Placebo: i guess he was not :)
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Pema Pera: creature, in English, can very well be used the way you did :)
    arabella Ella: or perhaps because an ant or a bee is also a creature?
    sophia Placebo: some words bring certain images
    arabella Ella: 'creature' emcompasses more than humans i think
    Pema Pera: it depends more on the context, I think
    arabella Ella nods
    Vajra Radikal: and in essence that is part of the problem
    Vajra Radikal: of describeing
    arabella Ella: and it could also be that 'beast' has different connotations and associations for different cultures and people
    Vajra Radikal: trascendent concepts
    Vajra Radikal: once you assign a word to it you fall into the realm of perception}
    Vajra Radikal: because you need to assign a mental image 2 it
    Vajra Radikal: hello eos
    Pema Pera: Hi Eos!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eos
    arabella Ella: Hiya Eos
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eos
    sophia Placebo: in Harry potter the word craeture was used to the house servants , a looked down -creatures-
    Eos Amaterasu: HI, all!
    sophia Placebo: hi eos
    sophia Placebo: as if you call someone creature you call him an -it-
    sophia Placebo: we dont have it in arabic
    sophia Placebo: nor capitalization of the name ^^ many poeple comment on my name
    Scathach Rhiadra: I think the word creature comes from the root 'create', maybe?
    sophia Placebo: that what i though
    Pema Pera: it depends on context: creature can just be "human" and it can be "servant". Here is the dictionary definition list:
    Pema Pera: crea·ture (krchr) n. 1. Something created. 2. a. A living being, especially an animal: land creatures; microscopic creatures in a drop of water. b. A human. c. An imaginary or fantastical being: mythological creatures; a creature from outer space. 3. One dependent on or subservient to another.
    Pema Pera: from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/creature
    Vajra Radikal: as scath mentioned the connotation is heavy on the creational part
    Eos Amaterasu: contingent being

    Pema leave...Ommi join

    Pema Pera: (sorry but I have to sneak out, RL calling . . . sorry to have to drop out of this interesting conversation!)
    sophia Placebo: bye pema !
    Vajra Radikal: l8r pema
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema
    arabella Ella: bye Pema hope u have a good day :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Pema :)
    Eos Amaterasu: ^_^
    Pema Pera: looking forward to reading the rest of the conversation on the log!
    Pema Pera: My day has 25 minutes left before midnight, Ara :-)
    arabella Ella: ouch :)
    Pema Pera: good day to all of you!
    arabella Ella: nite then :)
    sophia Placebo: hello ommi
    ommi Zenfold: hello :)
    Pema Pera: thank you (^_^)
    Vajra Radikal: hi omni
    arabella Ella: hiya Ommi
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi ommi
    ommi Zenfold: Hi Laura :) & Hi all!
    ommi Zenfold: did i join in the middle of something?
    sophia Placebo: almost ^^
    Vajra Radikal: we always seem to be in the middle of something
    Vajra Radikal: discussing on the nature of perception
    arabella Ella: sopia in Arabic dont you have a word which means 'some thing living'?
    Vajra Radikal: on what creatures are
    arabella Ella: Hiya Mick!
    sophia Placebo: something or someone
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Mick
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick
    Vajra Radikal: hi mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hiyaaa
    sophia Placebo: comes from the verbe to creat too
    arabella Ella: yes?
    sophia Placebo: hello mick ^^
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    arabella Ella: in my language we say ... xi haga hajja
    sophia Placebo: makhlooq
    arabella Ella: maybe yours is different?
    arabella Ella: ok
    arabella Ella: mahluq we say
    arabella Ella: created
    sophia Placebo: same i guess
    arabella Ella: yes i guess so :)
    Vajra Radikal: hi fox welcome

    Fox an intersting vesitor

    Fox Monacular: hi all
    arabella Ella: Hiya Fox
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Fox
    sophia Placebo: hi fox
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Fox
    ommi Zenfold: so, is there any concensus on how play as being manifests ?
    ommi Zenfold: hi Fox :)
    sophia Placebo: have you been here befor fox ?
    Fox Monacular: no i just discovered this place
    sophia Placebo: Welocme !
    Fox Monacular: but i like the idea
    Fox Monacular: i don't thnk i've even been not playing
    Fox Monacular: in being
    sophia Placebo: we recorded our conversation and post it on play as being wiki , is that ok with you ?
    Fox Monacular: cool
    sophia Placebo: ^^ ty
    Mickorod Renard: has anyone given Fox a note card?
    sophia Placebo: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    sophia Placebo: this is the wiki
    Fox Monacular: i've got the info card at the entrance
    Fox Monacular: ok, thanks
    Eos Amaterasu: we explore being through practicing being with being
    sophia Placebo: you have been playing with being befor ?
    Eos Amaterasu: 9 secs at a time, or here, inconversation, 90 secs each 15 mins..... and all the times between :-)
    Fox Monacular: no, i just like the way in sounds
    Vajra Radikal: i need 2 drop off 4 a sec
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)\
    sophia Placebo: ok :)
    Vajra Radikal: namaste everyone
    ommi Zenfold: namaste vajra
    sophia Placebo: bye vajra
    Scathach Rhiadra: Namasté
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Vajra
    Mickorod Renard: bye vaj


    ommi Zenfold: so, perception of play?
    ommi Zenfold: or perception of being?
    arabella Ella: could be both ommi
    Scathach Rhiadra: or drop perceptions and see what is
    ommi Zenfold: i think it's all the same thing, yes
    ommi Zenfold: the concept of play as a way to grow and learn is my fave
    ommi Zenfold: the best way to be
    ommi Zenfold: playing! ha ha
    ommi Zenfold: and learning to see
    Fox Monacular: are we ever not playing?
    Eos Amaterasu: since we are the subject of our own perceptions, play is there willy nilly
    Fox Monacular: we are also subject of our sensations
    ommi Zenfold: it's always amazing how many different ways there are to see the same thing
    Fox Monacular: not only perceptions
    ommi Zenfold: true Fox
    sophia Placebo: true re sensations
    ommi Zenfold: my question is, is there a 'same thing' to see - which is a discussion about the nature of reality
    Fox Monacular: you're talking about the 'qualia' problem?

    From Wiki :"Qualia" (pronounced /ˈkwɑːliə/), singular "quale" (pronounced /ˈkwɑːleɪ/, roughly KWAH-leh), from the Latin for "what sort" or "what kind," is a term used in philosophy to describe the subjective quality of conscious experience. Examples of qualia are the pain of a headache, the taste of wine, or the redness of an evening sky. Daniel Dennett writes that qualia is "an unfamiliar term for something that could not be more familiar to each of us: the ways things seem to us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

    Eos Amaterasu: as we talk that question arises, as well as "is there a same me"
    Fox Monacular: then there is no way to know for sure
    ommi Zenfold: what is that Fox?
    Fox Monacular: that the red color I see is the same sensation for you
    sophia Placebo: i guess not that deep but may margine it and deal with it in diffrent aproach
    ommi Zenfold: ok ty
    ommi Zenfold: i get the feelng everyone's in IM's here
    sophia Placebo: ^^
    Fox Monacular: 'is there the same me' from moment to moment?
    Eos Amaterasu: let's see
    sophia Placebo: yes and no ?!
    Fox Monacular: or do we actualize that 'sameness' through play
    sophia Placebo: or dose the changes do really matter
    SophiaSharon Larnia: its an appearance of change
    Fox Monacular: for as long as you retain your basic identity that changes don't matter
    Fox Monacular: and it's through play that you 'rehearse' it?
    sophia Placebo: i guess i did that
    Eos Amaterasu: what's the experience of basic identity?
    sophia Placebo: i reharse -change dosnt matter - bodly change that is
    ommi Zenfold: Fox, do you think of 'basic identity' as personality or soul? or are they related in any way
    sophia Placebo: mental change and spritual change dose matter though
    ommi Zenfold: i agree sophia
    ommi Zenfold: i think that's the crux of everything
    Fox Monacular: ommi, that's a difficult question!
    Fox Monacular: because personality and soul are very loaded concepts :)
    Fox Monacular: too loaded to explain 'basic'! identity for me
    ommi Zenfold: yep
    ommi Zenfold: i see them as both part of the same 'character' if you will
    ommi Zenfold: i think personality is an expression or manifestation of our soul,
    Fox Monacular: in buddhism there is only the experience of the present moment that reflects true identity
    ommi Zenfold: our operating base as it were, on this plane
    ommi Zenfold: beautiful
    ommi Zenfold: love that
    sophia Placebo thinking if frauid was buddah
    ommi Zenfold: but one moment excludes the others? i need the flow
    Fox Monacular: and so all the other ideas about who we are are 'artificial', come from the culture
    sophia Placebo: buddist *
    Fox Monacular: yeah, there is a flow, but you can't really perceive it
    ommi Zenfold: actually, i think it's not that difficult
    Fox Monacular: for us there is only 'here and now' that we can really realize
    ommi Zenfold: even that can be an illusion
    Fox Monacular: that's right
    ommi Zenfold: but let's assume our perceptions are not illusions
    Fox Monacular: so buddhists have meditation techniques to help them peel away layers of illusion
    ommi Zenfold: nods
    Fox Monacular: sorry, that's probably irrelevant to play though
    ommi Zenfold: oh yeah
    ommi Zenfold: lol
    ommi Zenfold: whoops
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (slips away quietly , bye all) :)
    ommi Zenfold: play is a gift
    ommi Zenfold: a wonderful, gentle way to learn
    sophia Placebo: bye sophia
    Fox Monacular: bye Sophia
    ommi Zenfold: tc Sophia!
    Mickorod Renard: bye Sophia S
    Fox Monacular: play is also an instrument of development
    Fox Monacular: not only for children
    ommi Zenfold: exactlyl
    ommi Zenfold: a great one
    ommi Zenfold: eos i missed your comment earlier, about 'is there a same me'
    Eos Amaterasu disappears/reappears into the next moment
    ommi Zenfold: good one
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye all, cheers!
    ommi Zenfold: bye lol
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Eos:)
    sophia Placebo: bye eos
    Mickorod Renard: bye Eos
    Fox Monacular: bye Eos

    Playing ....

    ommi Zenfold: is it time to go play?
    Fox Monacular: we're playing right now aren't we?
    Mickorod Renard: everyday is a game
    Fox Monacular: :)
    ommi Zenfold: lol
    sophia Placebo: :)
    ommi Zenfold: oh yes
    Fox Monacular: when my baby takes naps I go play in SL, and then she wakes up and I go play with her
    ommi Zenfold: aww
    sophia Placebo: nothing like children play
    ommi Zenfold: so interesting to watch
    sophia Placebo: yes
    Fox Monacular: you learn a lot about your own plays from them
    Fox Monacular: yes
    ommi Zenfold: reveals so much about people
    ommi Zenfold: yes lol
    Fox Monacular: lol
    Fox Monacular: and most of it you don't really have to teach
    Mickorod Renard: especially tantrums
    Fox Monacular: it just happens
    ommi Zenfold: ha
    sophia Placebo: they teach you
    Fox Monacular: like walking or crawling
    ommi Zenfold: like smiling
    Fox Monacular: yes, a lot
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,I am getting good at tantrums
    ommi Zenfold: and being over joyed
    ommi Zenfold: i see so many children in charge of their parents
    Fox Monacular: I'm good at tantrums too
    Fox Monacular: yes
    Fox Monacular: !
    sophia Placebo smilimg re over joied
    ommi Zenfold: yes :)
    ommi Zenfold: i've learned to make tantrums subtle and ongoing
    Fox Monacular: so this way we can see that play is also a power play
    ommi Zenfold: i have fits over meanness & foolishness
    ommi Zenfold: right
    Fox Monacular: like a tantrum in a grocery store
    Fox Monacular: or a coffee shop
    ommi Zenfold: oy
    sophia Placebo: one folklore story about fairies is that a baby laugh scattered and parted into many fairies
    ommi Zenfold: nice sophia :)
    Fox Monacular: cool
    arabella Ella: lovely
    sophia Placebo: thats highly metaphorical story
    ommi Zenfold: your av is inspiring sophia - i am thinking fairy is the way to go now
    arabella Ella: its a lovely avi sophia very original
    sophia Placebo: ty ^^ , i think fairies are fun
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,a beautiful avi
    ommi Zenfold: the gentlest folk - have never met an objectionable fairy
    ommi Zenfold: lately i have been greeting griefers on purpose
    ommi Zenfold: sussing them out
    ommi Zenfold: they're so strange
    sophia Placebo: lol
    ommi Zenfold: at first i just walked into them
    ommi Zenfold: over and over again
    ommi Zenfold: ha ha
    sophia Placebo: thats sounds like fun
    ommi Zenfold: well, it's different
    ommi Zenfold: usually they are misguided underaged teens
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: good bye all
    ommi Zenfold: bye Scath
    arabella Ella: bye Scath
    Fox Monacular: bye scath
    sophia Placebo: bye scath
    ommi Zenfold: oh quiet one
    Mickorod Renard: bye Scath
    Fox Monacular: is there a sl group for this group meetings?
    ommi Zenfold: through the Kira Cafe.. yes i think so
    sophia Placebo: the meetings are regular
    ommi Zenfold: and frequent
    Fox Monacular: cool
    sophia Placebo: daily 1 :00 am and pm sl time , 7:00 am and pm slt
    Fox Monacular: wow 4 times a day?
    ommi Zenfold: yup
    sophia Placebo: yes
    ommi Zenfold: we can get our game on often
    ommi Zenfold: lol
    arabella Ella: i must go now too bye all
    Fox Monacular: you all come 4 times a day?
    sophia Placebo: kira cafe is linked to this place but diffrent group
    ommi Zenfold: i don't no
    sophia Placebo: bye ara
    ommi Zenfold: ah
    ommi Zenfold: kira is great
    Mickorod Renard: bye ara
    ommi Zenfold: bye bye ara - love your name
    Fox Monacular: ok, i should go check out kira cafe
    Fox Monacular: bye ara
    ommi Zenfold: it's fantastic fox
    ommi Zenfold: you will love it
    Fox Monacular: renard, you know that renard is fox in french
    Mickorod Renard: oui
    ommi Zenfold: bien sur
    sophia Placebo: lol
    ommi Zenfold: then there's canard
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Fox Monacular: parlez vouz francais
    ommi Zenfold: quack
    ommi Zenfold: oui
    ommi Zenfold: un peu
    Fox Monacular: yes
    Fox Monacular: canard is not nearly as cool as renard
    ommi Zenfold: lol
    Mickorod Renard: woof
    ommi Zenfold: and renard's are deadly to canards
    Fox Monacular: lol
    Fox Monacular: yes
    ommi Zenfold: though some of those geese are pretty aggressive
    ommi Zenfold: had a gaggle attack my corvair once
    ommi Zenfold: that was a day
    Fox Monacular: geese, yes, but ducks - not so much
    ommi Zenfold: cool

    i turned off the recorder , we continue the chat a bit more then we left 

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