2009.07.18 07:00 - Is There A Same Me?

The Guardian for this meeting was sophia Placebo. The comments are by sophia Placebo.

Lots of questions have been raised in this session .What dose dropping ,playing ,preception and self means ? Do thses words raise the same meaning to you as it dose to me ?

Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
sophia Placebo: hello pema !
Pema Pera: Lovely fairy tale outfit!
sophia Placebo: ty ^^
Pema Pera: I saw it earlier too, but didn't get a chance to comment, with the fun intense conversation :)
Pema Pera: Hi Scathach!
sophia Placebo: hello scatha
sophia Placebo: yes morning conversation was intersting
Scathach Rhiadra: tha fish?
Scathach Rhiadra: the*
Pema Pera: the fish didn't talk that much this morning :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Pema Pera: yes, it was great to have Bertram jumping in so completely upon visiting for the first time!
Scathach Rhiadra: yes it was
sophia Placebo: he just asked too deep questions
sophia Placebo: for the first time , lol im getting paranoid
Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
Pema Pera: I'm impressed, Sophia, you always seem so cool :-)
sophia Placebo: i have extra time i guess :P
sophia Placebo: thank you ^^
Pema Pera: something tells me that he has been thinking deeply about those topics for a long time already . . . .
Scathach Rhiadra: yes it would seem so
Pema Pera: we meet people here in snapshots of their life, like walking into an ongoing movie, without any idea of whether we walk in at the beginning, middle or near the end of a long plot . . .

Dropping...

sophia Placebo: im still thinking of dropping
sophia Placebo: what exactly you mean by that ?
Pema Pera: the simplest way in which I have tried to describe how we can use the 9 second breaks is to say "drop what you have to see what you are"
sophia Placebo: hi ara
Pema Pera: First of all, it is not necessary, of course, to use the 9 secs for trying to do that
Pema Pera: Hi Arabella!
arabella Ella: Hiya Sophia Pema Scath
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara
Pema Pera: There are many ways to use the 9 secs, as you please, but if you'd like to have a single simple suggestion, that's what I originally wrote and said.
Pema Pera: Now the question is indeed what it means to "drop"
Pema Pera: in short: to drop overly strong identifications with the roles we play
Pema Pera: I can say: I am a man, not a woman; I am from Holland, not from another country; I am an astronomer, etc -- but it would be more precise to say: I HAVE a male gender, I HAVE a nationality that is Dutch, I HAVE a profession that is that of astronomer -- none of all those tell me whom I really am. In order to find out more of what I really am, it would be a good start to drop the idenfication with what I have
Vajra Radikal: namaste all
Pema Pera: Hi Vajra!
sophia Placebo: some strongly presenting over the surface thoughts ideas and feelings are easly to be aproach cause they appaer so clearly , but how far one can go with dropping
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Vajra
arabella Ella: Hiya Vajira
sophia Placebo: hi vajra
Pema Pera: Note that I don't suggest that we forget our identities: identities are useful. Rather, I suggest that we wear our identities lightly, without fully identifying with them and forgetting other aspects of ourselves
Vajra Radikal: pema what you are mentioning sounds like the 5 aggregates
sophia Placebo: hello sophia
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everyone :)
arabella Ella: Hiya SophiaSharon
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello SophiaSharon
Pema Pera: Perhaps dropping in your case, Sophia, would be close to seeing yourself as a symbol, would that make sense?
Vajra Radikal: hi sophia
sophia Placebo: say more vajra
Pema Pera: Hi SophiaSharon!

5Aggregates....

Vajra Radikal: the 5 aggregates forms a part of the analisys of emptiness
sophia Placebo: no ^^
Vajra Radikal: those 5 aggregates are the descriptors we assign to everything
Vajra Radikal: including oneself
Vajra Radikal: thus stuff like gender
Vajra Radikal: size
Vajra Radikal: good or bad
Vajra Radikal: and the problem of all opf the 5 aggregates
Vajra Radikal: is that they depend on personal perception+thus they dont describe reality
Pema Pera: yes, aggregates are attributes, properties of roles associated with us, not what we really are
sophia Placebo: that would make everything fall into theses five no ?
arabella Ella: this is intruiging ... but puzzling ... as although there is more to a person than eg gender and size ... why does gender for example not describe reality too?
Vajra Radikal: as pema mentions oneself is more transcendent than the descriptors attached to self
Vajra Radikal: well at keast in buddhism self is more subtle than gender
Pema Pera: the pictures shown in a movie describe the reality of the movie when seen as a story; but what you ask what is really there in front of you, it's not real people but a play of light -- so it depends how you ask the question, Ara
Pema Pera: your body is also not what you ultimately are -- you have a body, I would say, rather than you are a body
arabella Ella: even in RL though all we perceive is often dependent on light too right?
Pema Pera: besides, when we talk about a body, we always talk about our particular interpretations of that body
Pema Pera: well, the movie was a metaphor, you can't push that too far, but probably pretty far :-)
Vajra Radikal: precisely sl is as based on perceptions as firstlife
Vajra Radikal: and this is as real as fl is
arabella Ella nods
Pema Pera: Sophia, can you tell us more about what was weird or unsettling for you about the idea of dropping?
arabella Ella: i can see what you mean concerning body as shape (body) is transient and malleable too

Words and Images...

sophia Placebo: hmm , i want to make sure im not falling in language gap
sophia Placebo: not to mention personal and cultural diffrences
sophia Placebo: i for example used the word craeture when i described huamans
sophia Placebo: ^^ mick said this is like the word beast or something
Pema Pera: oh, I think he was just joking :-)
sophia Placebo: i guess he was not :)
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Pema Pera: creature, in English, can very well be used the way you did :)
arabella Ella: or perhaps because an ant or a bee is also a creature?
sophia Placebo: some words bring certain images
arabella Ella: 'creature' emcompasses more than humans i think
Pema Pera: it depends more on the context, I think
arabella Ella nods
Vajra Radikal: and in essence that is part of the problem
Vajra Radikal: of describeing
arabella Ella: and it could also be that 'beast' has different connotations and associations for different cultures and people
Vajra Radikal: trascendent concepts
Vajra Radikal: once you assign a word to it you fall into the realm of perception}
Vajra Radikal: because you need to assign a mental image 2 it
Vajra Radikal: hello eos
Pema Pera: Hi Eos!
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eos
arabella Ella: Hiya Eos
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eos
sophia Placebo: in Harry potter the word craeture was used to the house servants , a looked down -creatures-
Eos Amaterasu: HI, all!
sophia Placebo: hi eos
sophia Placebo: as if you call someone creature you call him an -it-
sophia Placebo: we dont have it in arabic
sophia Placebo: nor capitalization of the name ^^ many poeple comment on my name
Scathach Rhiadra: I think the word creature comes from the root 'create', maybe?
sophia Placebo: that what i though
Pema Pera: it depends on context: creature can just be "human" and it can be "servant". Here is the dictionary definition list:
Pema Pera: crea·ture (krchr) n. 1. Something created. 2. a. A living being, especially an animal: land creatures; microscopic creatures in a drop of water. b. A human. c. An imaginary or fantastical being: mythological creatures; a creature from outer space. 3. One dependent on or subservient to another.
Pema Pera: from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/creature
Vajra Radikal: as scath mentioned the connotation is heavy on the creational part
Eos Amaterasu: contingent being

Pema leave...Ommi join

Pema Pera: (sorry but I have to sneak out, RL calling . . . sorry to have to drop out of this interesting conversation!)
sophia Placebo: bye pema !
Vajra Radikal: l8r pema
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema
arabella Ella: bye Pema hope u have a good day :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Pema :)
Eos Amaterasu: ^_^
Pema Pera: looking forward to reading the rest of the conversation on the log!
Pema Pera: My day has 25 minutes left before midnight, Ara :-)
arabella Ella: ouch :)
Pema Pera: good day to all of you!
arabella Ella: nite then :)
sophia Placebo: hello ommi
ommi Zenfold: hello :)
Pema Pera: thank you (^_^)
Vajra Radikal: hi omni
arabella Ella: hiya Ommi
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi ommi
ommi Zenfold: Hi Laura :) & Hi all!
ommi Zenfold: did i join in the middle of something?
sophia Placebo: almost ^^
Vajra Radikal: we always seem to be in the middle of something
Vajra Radikal: discussing on the nature of perception
arabella Ella: sopia in Arabic dont you have a word which means 'some thing living'?
Vajra Radikal: on what creatures are
arabella Ella: Hiya Mick!
sophia Placebo: something or someone
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Mick
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick
Vajra Radikal: hi mick
Mickorod Renard: Hiyaaa
sophia Placebo: comes from the verbe to creat too
arabella Ella: yes?
sophia Placebo: hello mick ^^
Mickorod Renard: ;)
arabella Ella: in my language we say ... xi haga hajja
sophia Placebo: makhlooq
arabella Ella: maybe yours is different?
arabella Ella: ok
arabella Ella: mahluq we say
arabella Ella: created
sophia Placebo: same i guess
arabella Ella: yes i guess so :)
Vajra Radikal: hi fox welcome

Fox an intersting vesitor

Fox Monacular: hi all
arabella Ella: Hiya Fox
Mickorod Renard: Hi Fox
sophia Placebo: hi fox
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Fox
ommi Zenfold: so, is there any concensus on how play as being manifests ?
ommi Zenfold: hi Fox :)
sophia Placebo: have you been here befor fox ?
Fox Monacular: no i just discovered this place
sophia Placebo: Welocme !
Fox Monacular: but i like the idea
Fox Monacular: i don't thnk i've even been not playing
Fox Monacular: in being
sophia Placebo: we recorded our conversation and post it on play as being wiki , is that ok with you ?
Fox Monacular: cool
sophia Placebo: ^^ ty
Mickorod Renard: has anyone given Fox a note card?
sophia Placebo: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
sophia Placebo: this is the wiki
Fox Monacular: i've got the info card at the entrance
Fox Monacular: ok, thanks
Eos Amaterasu: we explore being through practicing being with being
sophia Placebo: you have been playing with being befor ?
Eos Amaterasu: 9 secs at a time, or here, inconversation, 90 secs each 15 mins..... and all the times between :-)
Fox Monacular: no, i just like the way in sounds
Vajra Radikal: i need 2 drop off 4 a sec
Eos Amaterasu: :-)\
sophia Placebo: ok :)
Vajra Radikal: namaste everyone
ommi Zenfold: namaste vajra
sophia Placebo: bye vajra
Scathach Rhiadra: Namasté
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Vajra
Mickorod Renard: bye vaj

Preceptions.....

ommi Zenfold: so, perception of play?
ommi Zenfold: or perception of being?
arabella Ella: could be both ommi
Scathach Rhiadra: or drop perceptions and see what is
ommi Zenfold: i think it's all the same thing, yes
ommi Zenfold: the concept of play as a way to grow and learn is my fave
ommi Zenfold: the best way to be
ommi Zenfold: playing! ha ha
ommi Zenfold: and learning to see
Fox Monacular: are we ever not playing?
Eos Amaterasu: since we are the subject of our own perceptions, play is there willy nilly
Fox Monacular: we are also subject of our sensations
ommi Zenfold: it's always amazing how many different ways there are to see the same thing
Fox Monacular: not only perceptions
ommi Zenfold: true Fox
sophia Placebo: true re sensations
ommi Zenfold: my question is, is there a 'same thing' to see - which is a discussion about the nature of reality
Fox Monacular: you're talking about the 'qualia' problem?

From Wiki :"Qualia" (pronounced /ˈkwɑːliə/), singular "quale" (pronounced /ˈkwɑːleɪ/, roughly KWAH-leh), from the Latin for "what sort" or "what kind," is a term used in philosophy to describe the subjective quality of conscious experience. Examples of qualia are the pain of a headache, the taste of wine, or the redness of an evening sky. Daniel Dennett writes that qualia is "an unfamiliar term for something that could not be more familiar to each of us: the ways things seem to us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

Eos Amaterasu: as we talk that question arises, as well as "is there a same me"
Fox Monacular: then there is no way to know for sure
ommi Zenfold: what is that Fox?
Fox Monacular: that the red color I see is the same sensation for you
sophia Placebo: i guess not that deep but may margine it and deal with it in diffrent aproach
ommi Zenfold: ok ty
ommi Zenfold: i get the feelng everyone's in IM's here
sophia Placebo: ^^
Fox Monacular: 'is there the same me' from moment to moment?
Eos Amaterasu: let's see
sophia Placebo: yes and no ?!
Fox Monacular: or do we actualize that 'sameness' through play
sophia Placebo: or dose the changes do really matter
SophiaSharon Larnia: its an appearance of change
Fox Monacular: for as long as you retain your basic identity that changes don't matter
Fox Monacular: and it's through play that you 'rehearse' it?
sophia Placebo: i guess i did that
Eos Amaterasu: what's the experience of basic identity?
sophia Placebo: i reharse -change dosnt matter - bodly change that is
ommi Zenfold: Fox, do you think of 'basic identity' as personality or soul? or are they related in any way
sophia Placebo: mental change and spritual change dose matter though
ommi Zenfold: i agree sophia
ommi Zenfold: i think that's the crux of everything
Fox Monacular: ommi, that's a difficult question!
Fox Monacular: because personality and soul are very loaded concepts :)
Fox Monacular: too loaded to explain 'basic'! identity for me
ommi Zenfold: yep
ommi Zenfold: i see them as both part of the same 'character' if you will
ommi Zenfold: i think personality is an expression or manifestation of our soul,
Fox Monacular: in buddhism there is only the experience of the present moment that reflects true identity
ommi Zenfold: our operating base as it were, on this plane
ommi Zenfold: beautiful
ommi Zenfold: love that
sophia Placebo thinking if frauid was buddah
ommi Zenfold: but one moment excludes the others? i need the flow
Fox Monacular: and so all the other ideas about who we are are 'artificial', come from the culture
sophia Placebo: buddist *
Fox Monacular: yeah, there is a flow, but you can't really perceive it
ommi Zenfold: actually, i think it's not that difficult
Fox Monacular: for us there is only 'here and now' that we can really realize
ommi Zenfold: even that can be an illusion
Fox Monacular: that's right
ommi Zenfold: but let's assume our perceptions are not illusions
Fox Monacular: so buddhists have meditation techniques to help them peel away layers of illusion
ommi Zenfold: nods
Fox Monacular: sorry, that's probably irrelevant to play though
ommi Zenfold: oh yeah
ommi Zenfold: lol
ommi Zenfold: whoops
SophiaSharon Larnia: (slips away quietly , bye all) :)
ommi Zenfold: play is a gift
ommi Zenfold: a wonderful, gentle way to learn
sophia Placebo: bye sophia
Fox Monacular: bye Sophia
ommi Zenfold: tc Sophia!
Mickorod Renard: bye Sophia S
Fox Monacular: play is also an instrument of development
Fox Monacular: not only for children
ommi Zenfold: exactlyl
ommi Zenfold: a great one
ommi Zenfold: eos i missed your comment earlier, about 'is there a same me'
Eos Amaterasu disappears/reappears into the next moment
ommi Zenfold: good one
Eos Amaterasu: Bye all, cheers!
ommi Zenfold: bye lol
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Eos:)
sophia Placebo: bye eos
Mickorod Renard: bye Eos
Fox Monacular: bye Eos

Playing ....

ommi Zenfold: is it time to go play?
Fox Monacular: we're playing right now aren't we?
Mickorod Renard: everyday is a game
Fox Monacular: :)
ommi Zenfold: lol
sophia Placebo: :)
ommi Zenfold: oh yes
Fox Monacular: when my baby takes naps I go play in SL, and then she wakes up and I go play with her
ommi Zenfold: aww
sophia Placebo: nothing like children play
ommi Zenfold: so interesting to watch
sophia Placebo: yes
Fox Monacular: you learn a lot about your own plays from them
Fox Monacular: yes
ommi Zenfold: reveals so much about people
ommi Zenfold: yes lol
Fox Monacular: lol
Fox Monacular: and most of it you don't really have to teach
Mickorod Renard: especially tantrums
Fox Monacular: it just happens
ommi Zenfold: ha
sophia Placebo: they teach you
Fox Monacular: like walking or crawling
ommi Zenfold: like smiling
Fox Monacular: yes, a lot
Mickorod Renard: yea,,I am getting good at tantrums
ommi Zenfold: and being over joyed
ommi Zenfold: i see so many children in charge of their parents
Fox Monacular: I'm good at tantrums too
Fox Monacular: yes
Fox Monacular: !
sophia Placebo smilimg re over joied
ommi Zenfold: yes :)
ommi Zenfold: i've learned to make tantrums subtle and ongoing
Fox Monacular: so this way we can see that play is also a power play
ommi Zenfold: i have fits over meanness & foolishness
ommi Zenfold: right
Fox Monacular: like a tantrum in a grocery store
Fox Monacular: or a coffee shop
ommi Zenfold: oy
sophia Placebo: one folklore story about fairies is that a baby laugh scattered and parted into many fairies
ommi Zenfold: nice sophia :)
Fox Monacular: cool
arabella Ella: lovely
sophia Placebo: thats highly metaphorical story
ommi Zenfold: your av is inspiring sophia - i am thinking fairy is the way to go now
arabella Ella: its a lovely avi sophia very original
sophia Placebo: ty ^^ , i think fairies are fun
Mickorod Renard: yes,,a beautiful avi
ommi Zenfold: the gentlest folk - have never met an objectionable fairy
ommi Zenfold: lately i have been greeting griefers on purpose
ommi Zenfold: sussing them out
ommi Zenfold: they're so strange
sophia Placebo: lol
ommi Zenfold: at first i just walked into them
ommi Zenfold: over and over again
ommi Zenfold: ha ha
sophia Placebo: thats sounds like fun
ommi Zenfold: well, it's different
ommi Zenfold: usually they are misguided underaged teens
Fox Monacular: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: good bye all
ommi Zenfold: bye Scath
arabella Ella: bye Scath
Fox Monacular: bye scath
sophia Placebo: bye scath
ommi Zenfold: oh quiet one
Mickorod Renard: bye Scath
Fox Monacular: is there a sl group for this group meetings?
ommi Zenfold: through the Kira Cafe.. yes i think so
sophia Placebo: the meetings are regular
ommi Zenfold: and frequent
Fox Monacular: cool
sophia Placebo: daily 1 :00 am and pm sl time , 7:00 am and pm slt
Fox Monacular: wow 4 times a day?
ommi Zenfold: yup
sophia Placebo: yes
ommi Zenfold: we can get our game on often
ommi Zenfold: lol
arabella Ella: i must go now too bye all
Fox Monacular: you all come 4 times a day?
sophia Placebo: kira cafe is linked to this place but diffrent group
ommi Zenfold: i don't no
sophia Placebo: bye ara
ommi Zenfold: ah
ommi Zenfold: kira is great
Mickorod Renard: bye ara
ommi Zenfold: bye bye ara - love your name
Fox Monacular: ok, i should go check out kira cafe
Fox Monacular: bye ara
ommi Zenfold: it's fantastic fox
ommi Zenfold: you will love it
Fox Monacular: renard, you know that renard is fox in french
Mickorod Renard: oui
ommi Zenfold: bien sur
sophia Placebo: lol
ommi Zenfold: then there's canard
Mickorod Renard: he he
Fox Monacular: parlez vouz francais
ommi Zenfold: quack
ommi Zenfold: oui
ommi Zenfold: un peu
Fox Monacular: yes
Fox Monacular: canard is not nearly as cool as renard
ommi Zenfold: lol
Mickorod Renard: woof
ommi Zenfold: and renard's are deadly to canards
Fox Monacular: lol
Fox Monacular: yes
ommi Zenfold: though some of those geese are pretty aggressive
ommi Zenfold: had a gaggle attack my corvair once
ommi Zenfold: that was a day
Fox Monacular: geese, yes, but ducks - not so much
ommi Zenfold: cool

i turned off the recorder , we continue the chat a bit more then we left