2009.07.26 07:00 - We're All in That Boat

The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

I arrived to find Bertram waiting. Eos stopped in a bit after me

Adams Rubble: Hello Bertram :)
Adams Rubble: I don't think I have met you yet
Adams Rubble: nice to meet you :)
Adams Rubble: Hello eos :)
Adams Rubble: Eos
Bertram Jacobus: that may be right ... i come here only since a few times, but appreciate this project VERY much.
Bertram Jacobus: hello eos ... :-)
Eos Amaterasu: HI Adams, Bartram
--BELL--

Eliza arrived and we talked about time and how helpful it would be if we had our actual RL time displayed over our heads. Is there a hud for that? SophiaSharen joined us soon after Eliza

Adams Rubble: Good morning Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hello everyone :)
Eos Amaterasu: 'morning 'Liza
Bertram Jacobus: hello eliza ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: here it´s afternoon ... ;-)
Adams Rubble: Good afternoon then Bertram :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bertram Jacobus: lol. tyvm adams :-))
Adams Rubble: I believe it is good morning to Eos too
Adams Rubble: Hello Sophia :)
Eliza Madrigal: Maybe SL could add a little clock in people's profiles. "For "Eos it is 9:02AM" :D
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, late morn
Bertram Jacobus: hello sophia ... :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sophia
Adams Rubble: anyone have anything they would like to discuss?
Eos Amaterasu: 11:02 am
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, hehe
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Everyone :))
Adams Rubble: yes 1 hour ahead of some of us
Bertram Jacobus: that would be a nice idea - also for a to be built item perhaps eliza ! :-)
Adams Rubble: I agree clocks would be helpful
Adams Rubble: betcha some of the people here could do it too :)
Eliza Madrigal: It has taken me a while to say Good morning/Good evening to Pema, and when he is back in the US I will be all turned around again. haha
Adams Rubble: hehe
Bertram Jacobus: and no : until now i have no special topic to discuss ... :-)

I make a funny typo about stopping

Adams Rubble: Bertram, have you experimented with the none second stops?
Adams Rubble: nine
Bertram Jacobus: yes, a bit
Adams Rubble: (funny typo)
Bertram Jacobus: lol yes
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Adams Rubble: that is wonderful that you are getting right into it
Bertram Jacobus: but no ... sorry ... i have to correct myself : i have more experiences with the 90 seconds here until now ...
Adams Rubble: ah, yes. they are arranged for us :)

Watching where thoughts come from

Eos Amaterasu: Pema introduced a theme recently about "watching where thoughts some from"
Eos Amaterasu: *come
Adams Rubble: yes, that's a good one
Bertram Jacobus: yes. and how do you all do it ? do you take the full hours and 15 minutes then to practise the nine seconds or do you do it every now and then ?
Eos Amaterasu: & spending 90 secs or 2 mins on that
Adams Rubble: It is not mandatory so many of us do it many different ways
Adams Rubble: When I set a clock and do it regularly is keeps me skimming on the surface of things I otherwise would find myself bogged down in
Adams Rubble: It reminds me of the larger world
Adams Rubble: Eos, have you watched your thoughts?
Eos Amaterasu: Yes.... the trick is to not have that become a cat and mouse game
Adams Rubble: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: ideally it's cat but no mouse
Eliza Madrigal: then no cat?
Adams Rubble: It is very helpful when we are struggling
Eos Amaterasu: and no cat... just the smile
Adams Rubble could prbably use it now (hehe)
Eos Amaterasu: However, doing the 2 minutes of watching where thoughts come from is more energized
Eos Amaterasu: Would you like to try it?
Adams Rubble: These things work best for me at the end of the day
Bertram Jacobus: may i ask again in relation to your connotation from before adams ? sry : my english is not always good enough yet - you meant, when you use the clock, that helps you ?
Adams Rubble: I have done it a few times along the way though
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh? why is that Adams?

Sophia Placebo appears in a cowgirl outfit

sophia Placebo: hi :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi sophia...a flying wrangler :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi sophia :)
Bertram Jacobus: hello sophia ... :-)
Adams Rubble: Bertram, yes,I use the clock to make me stop regularly and then that keeps me from getting bogged down
Adams Rubble: Hello Sophia
Bertram Jacobus: ty. now i got it adams :-)
Adams Rubble: It is the constant stopping and looking
Adams Rubble: very powerful when done regularly
Adams Rubble: SophiaSharon maybe because I clear my head then
Eos Amaterasu: Yes. I use an iPhone clock
Bertram Jacobus: i´ll try to try that ... :-)
Adams Rubble: It is worth a try
Eos Amaterasu: It's sometimes difficult at work
Adams Rubble: there is a mindful clock that one can get for ones computer
Eos Amaterasu: but work obsessions are also appearances
Adams Rubble: yes, depends on how one's workplace is set up
--BELL--
Adams Rubble: but easiest for me to do at work

We have been discussing clocks for stopping and Eliza gives us the website for the mindfulness clock

Eliza Madrigal: http://www.mindfulnessdc.org/mindfulclock.html
Adams Rubble: thank you Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bertram, that is a link to a clock for the computer
Eliza Madrigal: No problem :)
Bertram Jacobus: yes. i click it. ty
Adams Rubble: best oart, it is free :)
Adams Rubble: part
Eliza Madrigal: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Thank you Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: Often when I'm out and about I notice myself shift a little and then look at the clock and realize I'm in time with the practice.. like that.
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: neat when that happens

Pema joins the group and surprisingly it gets very quiet for a time

Adams Rubble: Hello Pema :)
sophia Placebo: Hi pema
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Pema :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Pema :)
Bertram Jacobus: hello pema ... :-)
Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I like diving into the immediate excercizes too though... a kind of Spontaneity practice?
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: I have found that different exercises work better at different times
Eliza Madrigal nods
Adams Rubble: like finding the right tool for the job
sophia Placebo nods
Bertram Jacobus: but ... you miss spontaneity eliza a bit ? did i get that right ?
Eliza Madrigal: I amuses me how it seems hard at first. Whenever someone says "Let's do this right now" I have an "Oh No" response
Eliza Madrigal: which I like to laugh at
Eliza Madrigal: and override
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Rubble: Ohhh. like me a few minutes ago. hehe
Eliza Madrigal: Well, not saying that. We all have our rhythms certainly
Bertram Jacobus: eliza ? may i ask again ? did you see my question ? you miss spontaneity a bit ? sorry : if that is too insisting : please, don´t feel bothered and free not to answer :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, sorry Bertram :) My answer would be "Yes"
Bertram Jacobus: ah. that was the answer ? sometimes a bit difficult with these interferences in the chats ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: ah. great. ty -

Spontaneity in action

Eliza Madrigal: I think that is easy to lose..that feeling when after a wedding and everyone jumps into a pool fully dressed and you just do it too without thinking
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Rubble gasps
Adams Rubble: :)
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
Eos Amaterasu looks at the pool in alarm
Eliza Madrigal: hahah, yes sure

Appreciation and Awareness

SophiaSharon Larnia: I have a question for anyone. Is appreciation the same thing as awareness? Or so closely related that they are hard to seperate? They seem to be very different, but I wonder now.
sophia Placebo: :)
Adams Rubble: It depends what you mean by awareness and appreciation (giggles at the leegalize)
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes it does doesn't it
SophiaSharon Larnia: awareness as acceptance
Eliza Madrigal: yes openness rather than something to do
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: i´m still thinking about the point eliza remarked : how could spontaneity be brought into the practise ?
Adams Rubble: awareness seems a bigger term to be for some reason
Adams Rubble: to me not to be
Pema Pera: awareness as such is generally seen as a neutral term
Pema Pera: whereas appreciation is generally seen as applying to something positive
Pema Pera: we appreciate health, not sickness, typically
Eos Amaterasu: Re spontaneity, deliberate practice (1% tax) can make spontaneity more likely
Pema Pera: however, the kind of appreciation that we are talking about in "appreciating the presence of appearance" is more an appreciation of awareness as such
Adams Rubble: hmm.Pema, you seem to have been teaching me to appreciate the not so positive too
Bertram Jacobus: for me, it´s the same thing adams : becuase i understand appreciation only in a so to say good way, but awareness also to even the most problematic aspects (?) ...
Pema Pera: and therefore quite different
Pema Pera: and more inclusive
Pema Pera: for everything, whatever we label it, positive or negative or neutral
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes this is is what I have felt too, Pema
Adams Rubble: yes, see that in your last statements Pema
Pema Pera: so while awareness and appreciation are different notions, we can learn to appreciate the very fact of the presence of awareness
Pema Pera: before judging and labeling
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: and that is most helpful
Pema Pera: and that ties in with spontaneity
Pema Pera: judging and labeling smothers spontaneity

Shooting nine second holes in the cover of labelling

Pema Pera: and as Eos pointed out, shooting little 9-sec holes in the cover of labeling frees us up
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eos Amaterasu: in appreciation there's also a hint that you yourself have been shifted, moved, opened
Pema Pera: yes, stepped aside :)
Bertram Jacobus: but regarding to "judjing" : it seems to be neccesairy to evaluate , but a problem could be to convict. may be a matter of words - in german these aspects are very close ...
Pema Pera: yes, the judging itself is fine, as long as you "wear it lightly", don't get stuck to it
Pema Pera: instead of saying "he is a bad person" it is enough to say "he did something bad"
Pema Pera: a very big difference
Bertram Jacobus: nods
Pema Pera: limiting the judgement to the deed, not implicating the whole person
Bertram Jacobus: especially to the "not to get stucked thing" ... :-)
sophia Placebo nods
Pema Pera: or viewing a coworker not as a tool to get ahead or to learn something but primarily as a human being, you can be with
Bertram Jacobus: because i did not cultivate that enough until now ...
Pema Pera: and then also as someone from whom you can learn

Ah, here's a title for today :)

Pema Pera: we're all in that boat, Bert :-)
Eliza Madrigal nods
Pema Pera: so we help each other to cultivate
Eliza Madrigal: Maybe also we limit awareness to a way to 'think' when it can be more complete/total?
Pema Pera: yes, awareness is the canvas on which everything we experience is presented, our whole world
Pema Pera: sense impressions, fantasies, dreams, all that appears

A visitor stopped in to see what is going on. I edited him out. We continued to discuss awareness and appreciation

Eos Amaterasu: our awareness is not just "inside" us
Pema Pera: we are inside our awareness, and the whole world is too :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles, like that
Bertram Jacobus: pema - you suggested, that it would be a fine thing to observe, where thoughts came from and then to refer about it. a first kind of result for me is : they seem to come from - nowhere (!?) ..
--BELL--
Pema Pera: Yes, Bert, that seems like a great answer, that's how it seems, right?
SophiaSharon Larnia: when i turn the mirror on myself, my thoughts seem to come from everything I have ever been taught
Bertram Jacobus: yes, that was a very astonishing first impression. a nice one :-9
sophia Placebo: agrees with sophis
Pema Pera: glad you were diving into it so straightforwardly, Bert!
Pema Pera nods to Sophis too
Bertram Jacobus: but as you all can see, i wrote that still with a interrogation mark - so i´m not totally satisfied yet. don´t know why
Pema Pera: nice new name, SophiaSharon :-)
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles, feel free
Pema Pera: That's perfect, Bert, the whole point of an exploration is not to come to a quick conclusion, but to keep looking deeper, in more detail
Pema Pera: so best not to make any summary but to just continue
Pema Pera: so please keep looking for a while, I'd love to hear where that exploration brings you!
SophiaSharon Larnia: (what I have seen with this mirror is red pointy black things and am a bit alarmed)
Bertram Jacobus: i´ll do my very best ... ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: I guess as in dreams our conditioning/processing takes various shapes, SophiaSharon?
SophiaSharon Larnia: it can manifest that way, and then be over interpreted
Adams Rubble is a little behind but hs had simlar experiencing in seeing how thoughts come from what we have been taught
Adams Rubble: I found that helpful
Adams Rubble notices that is a value judgement
Adams Rubble: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: Or just noticing you picked something up and made it more solid than it needs to be?
Pema Pera: that's an okay value Adams :-) -- again, when taken lightly and then dropped again, to move on
Pema Pera: as Eliza just said

Pema departs

Pema Pera: It's getting to be midnight here, I think I'll try to get some sleep.
Pema Pera: nice talkind with you all!
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Pema :)
Adams Rubble: good night Pema :)
Eliza Madrigal: Night Pema :)
sophia Placebo: night pema
Pema Pera: And welcome Bertram as our new guardian!
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Bertram Jacobus: then have a very nice nite pema :-)
SophiaSharon Larnia: welcome Bertram! :)
Bertram Jacobus: ty all - i´m very glad that i may be here with you all
Adams Rubble: Just saw Pema's email about Bertram. Wlecome to the guardian group Bertram :)
Pema Pera: as we all can see, you're fitting right in, by jumping right in I should say :-)
Adams Rubble: hehe. and Pema said it :)
Eliza Madrigal: We're glad you're here Bertram, yes welcome! :)
Pema Pera: bfn
Bertram Jacobus: i´m realy happy that i met such a group as it is here ...
Adams Rubble: :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles, me too
sophia Placebo: me three
SophiaSharon Larnia: me 4
Bertram Jacobus: and it was "totally by chance" ...
Eos Amaterasu: only possible in SL!
Adams Rubble: yes, for us all :)
Bertram Jacobus: lol. may be in the net - the new possibilities ...
Eos Amaterasu wonders if this pool will be as famous as Delphi
Adams Rubble: hehe
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: This is a special place
Bertram Jacobus: may be we´ll see (?) ... :-)
Adams Rubble: It may be we need to take the pool lightly too :)
--BELL--

Sophia goes next

sophia Placebo: sneaks out , bye all
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye sophia
Eliza Madrigal has seen the pool and it is us
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Adams Rubble: we seem to be leaving in reverse order
Bertram Jacobus: that´s a dilemma ! : saying goodbye or holding silence ? ;-)
Adams Rubble: :) Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: True Bert!
SophiaSharon Larnia: (sorry)
Adams Rubble: np Sophia
Eliza Madrigal: Look what I typed during the silence admitedly:
Eliza Madrigal: (silently waves to Sophia)
Adams Rubble: I said goodbye in IM
SophiaSharon Larnia: haha
Eliza Madrigal: So that's really not :))
Eliza Madrigal: Can't make a 'law' out of things I guess...solidify the rule?
Bertram Jacobus: sometimes i will be a bit slow. please sorry for that. as i already said, i sometimes have to search some english words to understand ...
Adams Rubble: Yes, np with that Bertram. Glad I don't have to talk in German
Eliza Madrigal: Bertram, you do very well from what I've seen/heard so far :)
Eliza Madrigal nods to Adams
Bertram Jacobus: may be, i´m stuck a bit into "perfect communication" ;o)
Adams Rubble: English is not first language for many in the group
Bertram Jacobus: and not too important, but the name is bertram :o)
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: Have to speak in English because so many english speakers are not good in other languages maybe :)
Eliza Madrigal is incoherent at times without any language barrier to fall back on
SophiaSharon Larnia: haha Eliza
Bertram Jacobus: that´s perfect ! i learn here better then elswhere more english now ...
Adams Rubble: me too
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: me too was to Eliza (giggles)
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Bertram Jacobus: and ... what you worte in relation to the "dilemma" from before - nice inspirations and varieties ! ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: "okay" - i´ll leave and study a bit the guardian aspects in the for me new group ... :-)
Eliza Madrigal: My guideline with hellos and goodbyes during the silence is that if at the beginning of the hr or end, I err on the side of Hello and Goodbye :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: plus it is in the logs
Bertram Jacobus: you err ? what does that mean please eliza ?
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, sorry. If I think I may be off, I choose which side to be off on
Eliza Madrigal: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: me? oh no
Adams Rubble: The logs can be fixed Sophia :)
Eliza Madrigal gasps
Adams Rubble giggles
Adams Rubble: only by people in the pool Eliza :)
Bertram Jacobus: okay - i´ll leave - cu - and have a good time . ty
Eliza Madrigal: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now Bertram :)
Adams Rubble: bye Bertram. Nice to meet you :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: I tried fixing typing errors in it once and it was difficult, kept 'freezing'
SophiaSharon Larnia: never did it again
Eos Amaterasu: Bye Bert
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I've had issues with the logs like that, thought it was just my computer
SophiaSharon Larnia: Bye Bertram
Bertram Jacobus: :-))
Eliza Madrigal: So I rarely copy/paste all at once
Adams Rubble: I am careful to do my editing in parts
Adams Rubble: I paste all at once then save
Adams Rubble: then edit
Adams Rubble: then save
Adams Rubble: then edit some more
Adams Rubble: etc
SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
Eliza Madrigal: Bwahahahhaa
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, if you see 'recent changes'' sometimes, my um, process is the same
Eos Amaterasu copies into text editor, edits, then copy/pastes into wiki, then formats & edits
Adams Rubble: but sometimes someone edits before I am done (hehe)
Eliza Madrigal: It is 'labled' I'm told, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder =P~
SophiaSharon Larnia: no!
SophiaSharon Larnia: not that
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Adams Rubble: hehe
SophiaSharon Larnia: haha
Eos Amaterasu: ack!
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: This morning I saw a snippet of CBS News, and they were showing an excercize that trainers so with dolphins, that shows they know how to think flexibly, ie doing something 'different' each time
Eliza Madrigal: (bad sentence sorry)
Eliza Madrigal: *of trainers with dolphins
Adams Rubble gets the point :)
Eliza Madrigal: thank goodness
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble has been thinking of various forms of intelligence
Adams Rubble was watching flowers attract bees yesterday
SophiaSharon Larnia has been thinking of intellegence as awareness
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, nice
Eliza Madrigal: that too! :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: and what sentinent means
Eos Amaterasu: sentience: seems like awareness + care
Eos Amaterasu: wrapped in senses
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, as dolphins are sentinent
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eos Amaterasu: he flowers have their colors and aromas
Adams Rubble: different flowers have to attract the bees at different times or otherwise p[ollination would not work
Adams Rubble: they have to take turns
Adams Rubble: or attract different insects
Adams Rubble: theree is some kind of intelligence there
Eliza Madrigal: Hmm
SophiaSharon Larnia: so there is awareness as intelligence in evolutionary processes, or is this steeping over a line ?
Adams Rubble: whether purely evolution or not
SophiaSharon Larnia: stepping*
Adams Rubble: good question
Adams Rubble: but even if evolution, there is a process every year
Eliza Madrigal: we are often unaware of receptive intelligence
Adams Rubble: we are unaware of many bodily processes
SophiaSharon Larnia: (steps on the line in the sand and smears it)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Adams Rubble: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Flowers can be incredible teachers..it is their openness that draws one in
SophiaSharon Larnia: their 'there-ness'
Eliza Madrigal: the most powerful thing is the gentlest, yes :)
Eos Amaterasu thinks of PaB pavilion as such a flower
Adams Rubble looks in inventory for a bee costume
Adams Rubble: :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
Eliza Madrigal remembers an article recently, about the 'randomness' of evolution... that the way it is understood is often upside down, due to looking for linear patterns
SophiaSharon Larnia: what would make it be understood 'right way up'
Eliza Madrigal: in thinking about how we 'watch our thoughts' even....
Eliza Madrigal: trying to organize them fit them places, etc
Adams Rubble: yes, we see the results
Eliza Madrigal: rather than stringing together, taking moment by moment would be even more 'natural'?
--BELL--

Eos goes and then SophiaSharen

Eos Amaterasu: I must buzz off... thanks all
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Eos :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Eos :) Have a lovely day
Adams Rubble: bye Eos
Eos Amaterasu: Bye Adams, Sophia, Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I looked for the article but it is in a Newsweek at the ortho :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: me too, have a great day Adams and Eliza :))
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now SophiaSharon :)
Adams Rubble: whoops
Eliza Madrigal: whoops?
Adams Rubble: missed Sophia leavinbg
Eliza Madrigal: Ah