2009.07.27 07:00 - What if you don't see?

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    Hello, Good Morning, Howdy, S'up?


    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Fael!
    Fael Illyar: How are you today?
    Pema Pera: I'm fine, almost at the end of my day, it's 11 pm here in Kyoto
    Pema Pera: and how about you?
    Fael Illyar: I'm ok, returning back to normal I suppose. Recovering from imbalance I guess.
    Fael Illyar: ... ok, too much suppossing and guessing :)
    Fael Illyar: scratch those :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: may I ask what kind of imbalance?
    Fael Illyar: Hi Kallie :)
    Pema Pera: Hi there, Kallie!
    Kallie Kira: hi there :)
    Kallie Kira: am I standing on someone?
    Pema Pera: nope


    Fael Illyar: I realized I'd picked up a few traits from someone else that didn't quite fit with my already existing traits.
    Pema Pera: yes, that can happen -- like trying on some new clothes to see wethere they fit
    Pema Pera: on some borrowed clothes, I guess in this case
    Fael Illyar: Yep, result, won't fit at all
    Fael Illyar: but as a result, I understand this person better.
    Pema Pera: and perhaps also yourself?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, myself too
    Pema Pera: do you want to tell us more, or is that too private?
    Fael Illyar: my own privacy wouldn't matter that much but ...
    Fael Illyar: especially since the other person would regard a lot of what I realized as lies and be horrible hurt if this log gets to this person.
    Pema Pera: whatever you think would be right, given everybody involved
    Pema Pera: so in that case probably better not to discuss that here then
    Fael Illyar: Yes


    Pema Pera: I have a different question, if we can switch topic?
    Fael Illyar: sure :)
    Pema Pera: I don't know whether you saw my recent email about "if", but it reminded me of what you've said a few times about "not trying"
    Fael Illyar: can't recall email about "if"...
    Pema Pera: let me start from scratch then, that is more fun in any case
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Pema Pera: So we have talked about "seeing is enough"
    Pema Pera: and the main idea here is "playing as Being"
    Pema Pera: Now if you start with "seeing is enough" the first question that comes up is "what if you don't see"


    Pema Pera: so that's the "if" question, in a nut shell
    Pema Pera: the standard answer is: spend years training in some kind of traditional discipline
    Fael Illyar: I'd tend to say that, yes you do see, just refuse to interpret.
    Pema Pera: until you reach something (enlightenment, deep insight, . . . )
    Pema Pera: and that approach of course does make a lot of sense
    Pema Pera: the question is: is there an alternative to such an approach
    Fael Illyar: or even, is that approach even needed for most people?
    Pema Pera: and the PaB alternative is: when we really play as Being, that would imply that we play as Being Seeing
    Pema Pera: so no "if"
    Pema Pera: since for Being there would be no "if:
    Pema Pera: Ah, your question is a different one:
    Pema Pera: whether that approach is needed
    Pema Pera: well, that depends on where you start
    Fael Illyar: Yes :)
    Pema Pera: so if you start with "seeing is enough"
    Pema Pera: *then* there is the question of "if"
    Fael Illyar: why?


    Pema Pera: isn't that a natural question? If I say: money is enough, the natural question is: how do you get money; If we explore the hypothesis "seeing is enough", the natural question is "how do you get this seeing" -- or in short, the natural response is to translate "seeing is enough" into "IF you see THEN that is enough" -- but PaB seems to suggest that you can skip that "if", when really playing as Being . . . . .
    Fael Illyar: "seeing is enough" implies that not seeing is not good enough.
    Fael Illyar: hence the fear of not seeing if you accept it
    Pema Pera: unless there is no possibity of not seeing . . . .
    Kallie Kira: hmmm no I don't think so Fael .... it's not a logic statement
    Fael Illyar: that's how it will look like.
    Kallie Kira: there is the seeing and it's enough ... people don't really matter, the "I" is not present ... I don't think anyway :)
    Fael Illyar: there is no way not to look. There's only ways to interpret what you see to in effect not see.
    Fael Illyar: but still see
    Kallie Kira: looking and seeing .... brothers or twins ? :)
    Fael Illyar: take your pick :)


    Fael Illyar: if there is something you don't want to see, you will progress towards not seeing it. Equally, if there is something you want to see, you will progress toward seeing it.
    Pema Pera: (just to finish my original question: Fael sometimes said "don't try but do" -- and that seems to have a connection to what I indicated with "no if" ; but I'm not sure whether Fael would agree upon a connection, I was just curious)
    Fael Illyar: there is a connection :)
    Kallie Kira: (sorry, butted in )
    Pema Pera: (oh no, please do so, Kallie!)
    Fael Illyar: trying often (always?) implies that not succeeding is bad.
    Fael Illyar: as such, the intent to not accept not succeeding
    Pema Pera: at the same time there is exploring -- would you have the same problem with "exploring" as with "trying"?
    Fael Illyar: no, not with exploring.
    Kallie Kira: trying seems like no intentionality to me ... now exploring, well, that has intention to investigate :)
    Fael Illyar: another aspect of trying is a premature apology for failing
    Fael Illyar: ie, not believing there's a chance to succeed


    Pema Pera: interesting, to walk around all the aspects and associations of a simply word :-)
    Pema Pera: quite helpful
    Pema Pera: to try and pick apart the shades of meaning
    Kallie Kira: there's a saying ... you know where trying is at
    Pema Pera: can you explain the saying to non-natives, Kallie?
    Fael Illyar: and at the center is the threat of self punishment for failing.
    Pema Pera: yes, I see that downside of some aspect of trying, for sure!
    Pema Pera: but there is also "trying on" new clothes, or "trying out" a hypothesis -- both more like exploring
    Fael Illyar: yep, those have the meaning of exploring
    Pema Pera: or trial and error
    Fael Illyar: I've been avoiding using try about things I'm going to attempt.
    Kallie Kira: it's about intention (again :) .... said in the context of backing away from commitment "I'll try to make it", "I'll try to do it" ... there is no intention, whereas you say I will try a new food today ... whole different kind of try
    Fael Illyar: or more like, pause when I see that.
    Fael Illyar: Which I just did by the way :)
    Fael Illyar: (the first formulation in my mind was "I've been trying to avoid using try...")
    Kallie Kira: so if someone says I'll "try" to help you .... you know where trying is at, nowhere, because you can't count on them
    Fael Illyar: quite amusing :)
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Pema Pera: I know the feeling :-)
    Fael Illyar: Kallie, exactly :)
    Fael Illyar: they don't trust that they can.
    Pema Pera: ah, now I see, Kallie! Good point (my previous reply was to Fael)
    Kallie Kira: that's right, and you can't trust that they will keep their word, so "trying" is nowhere ....
    Fael Illyar: it's a way to look like you promise but not promise.
    Kallie Kira: but..... trying new food, trying clothes, no problem, trying is just that, an exploration


    Pema Pera: so we should have two different words for "try" in the English language: 1) trying to help someone (and backing out) and trying to reach a light switch (and if you can't you walk over, or stand on a chair, etc)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Sophia :)
    sophia Placebo: Hi all !
    Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
    Kallie Kira: hi Sophia :)
    Pema Pera: Actually, given that it is 11:30 pm, and I'll have to get up early tomorrow, dare I say: I'll try to get some sleep? (^_^)
    Fael Illyar: Also, the meaning of 'try' could easily transfer to nother word too.
    sophia Placebo: night pema
    Fael Illyar: Ah Good night Pema :)
    Kallie Kira: good idea .... try and rest :)
    Fael Illyar: Sweet dreams :)
    Pema Pera: nother, Fael?
    Fael Illyar: another
    Pema Pera: you mean, substituting, like "exploring"?
    Fael Illyar: no, but if you start watching out for try, it might sneak into another expression :)
    Kallie Kira: explore the rem dimension :)
    Pema Pera: ah yes, like "I'll explore the possibility of helping you -- fat chance"
    Kallie Kira: lol
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Pema Pera: well, I'll leave you to try to figure out all this "try" stuff :-)
    Fael Illyar: Sleep well :)
    Kallie Kira: exlcusion applies to commitment :)
    Fael Illyar waves.
    Pema Pera: and I wish Sophia good luck in trying to make sense of this conversation!
    Pema Pera: bfn
    sophia Placebo: hehe
    Kallie Kira: yes, perhaps we should switch :)
    Kallie Kira: or explain :)
    Fael Illyar smiles.


    sophia Placebo: explain please :)
    Kallie Kira: go for it Fael :)
    sophia Placebo: or switch if you like
    Fael Illyar: explain? I'll need a question :)
    Kallie Kira: we were talking about the different meaning of the word "try" .... for expample, the difference between trying new foods as compared to when a person "tries" to do something as a commitment
    Kallie Kira: "I'll try to do that" .... it's like someone is taking an out that they may not come through on it
    Kallie Kira: you know that there is no intention to really do something because they didn't say I'll be there at 10 they instead say I'll try and be there at 10 .... you can't count on that kind of try .... make sense?
    sophia Placebo: yes
    sophia Placebo: thank you
    Fael Illyar: between the lines, that kind of thing reads "I don't trust I can do that"
    sophia Placebo: we usually here use the expression -i'll do if i can-
    Kallie Kira: the discussion of "try" was a tangent to the discussion about is seeing enough?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that's more honest :)
    sophia Placebo: if someone ask for help for example and we wwerent sure we can offer it or we dont know what kind of help he wants
    Fael Illyar: hence I've been repeating Yoda often by saying "no try. Do or don't."
    Kallie Kira: yes, it does sound more straight forward
    sophia Placebo: but i understand when using the english language and poeple say i'll try
    sophia Placebo: for me my mind shift to -if i can-
    Kallie Kira: I would rather someone say, no I can't do xyz than to say I'll try to do xyz
    sophia Placebo: true
    Fael Illyar: I tend to just tell people "I haven't done that before" or "I haven't succeeded at that before"


    sophia Placebo: we used the xpression wih no too - sorry but i cant help you rather i wont help you - i would help you if i can but i cant
    Kallie Kira: that's good context so if you want to have another go at it, people would understand
    sophia Placebo: me too fael
    Kallie Kira: sounds more honest to me Sophia .... and it's kind also :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, it communicates more than just "no"
    Kallie Kira: exactly, it's permissable to decline gracefully imo :)
    Fael Illyar: just a "no" tends to be taken that you don't want to help.
    sophia Placebo: yes
    Fael Illyar: not by everyone but by many
    sophia Placebo: so cold and uncaring , used if you really angery at someone or in real hurry
    Fael Illyar: yep, used when you don't want to use time for a softer response.
    Fael Illyar: (or think a softer response wouldn't be listened to)
    Kallie Kira: I'm curious to back up to Pema's question ... if you start with "seeing is enough" the first question that comes up is "what if you don't see"
    Fael Illyar: yes?
    Fael Illyar: that question is obviously based on interpreting an implied "not seeing is not enough" for "seeing is enough"
    Fael Illyar: and that it's possible to not see
    Kallie Kira: well, to poke it a bit more .... say that everyone sees, but maybe some don't know they see, how to see the seeing?
    Fael Illyar: the conscious doesn't see everything but the mind as a whole, does.
    Kallie Kira: the "not seeing is not enough" does not mean anything to one who does not see :)
    Fael Illyar: the conscious is something built on the subconscious.
    sophia Placebo: i dont see that i see my job as the first priority in my life < that kind of not seeing kali?
    Kallie Kira: I guess I'm suggesting it's not an either/or thing Fael, one postulate does not create the opposite postulate, that the premise is more ambiguous than that
    Fael Illyar: you mean the "seeing is enough" sentence?
    sophia Placebo: re kali :[7:48] Kallie Kira: well, to poke it a bit more .... say that everyone sees, but maybe some don't know they see, how to see the seeing?
    Kallie Kira: yes ..... it's a phrase that's meaningful to those who share a context .... for someone outside the sphere of understanding, of the context, it has little meaning
    Fael Illyar: yes, of course. Have to understand what seeing means to get anything out of it.


    Fael Illyar: ah, I'll need to go afk for a while, RL things calling.
    sophia Placebo: ok
    Kallie Kira: also, it's possible that not seeing is enough for any given person .... they don't care if they see or not
    sophia Placebo: yes
    sophia Placebo: some poeple like it that way
    Kallie Kira: lol, just horsing around with the phrase :)
    sophia Placebo: ignorance is a bliss
    Kallie Kira: indeed, they like it just fine :)
    Fael Illyar: anyway you are is fine :)
    Fael Illyar: believe otherwise and it will become reality for you.
    Kallie Kira: for sure :)
    Kallie Kira: funny thought that in the most intimate of human relationships, people attempt to change each other even though when they started out the other person was more than just fine :)
    Fael Illyar: Yep :)
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Kallie Kira: humans are weird :)
    sophia Placebo: hehe


    Fael Illyar: not really, just trying to survive with ourselves and our beliefs :)
    sophia Placebo: love your sweater fael btw
    Fael Illyar smiles 'Thank you. I happened to see it in a shop and just had to buy it.'
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Kallie Kira: I'm going to take off, nice talking with you :)
    sophia Placebo: bye kallie
    Fael Illyar: By Kallie :)
    sophia Placebo: same to you
    Kallie Kira: bye :)
    Fael Illyar: It was nice to meet :)

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