2009.09.03 07:00 - Weird Wu-Wei

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal, filling in for Gen. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

A very nice session in which we begin to discuss Wu-Wei, 'anew'. 

First though, Pema asks me about the 20 minute nighly sittings at Zen Retreat... 

Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :)
Pema Pera: You are one of the people keeping the zen retreat silent meditation going, I believe?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I suppose that's true
Pema Pera: is that still taking place in the old open-air spot in Rieul?
Pema Pera: Hi Adelene!
Eliza Madrigal: yes, 6PM every night :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adelene! :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Adelene Dawner: hi ^.^
Pema Pera: I'd like to drop by again one of these days -- has been quite a while
Eliza Madrigal: That would be wonderful, Pema :)
Pema Pera: I have fond memories of the place
Eliza Madrigal: It is probably the most consistent place in SL for me, aside from here :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: I didn't know you went there, but know of course that PaB started in the tea hut :)
Pema Pera: After I visited there, Dakini offered me the use of the tea house nearby, and then a few weeks later I started PaB
Pema Pera: yes :)
Pema Pera: and then I got so busy with PaB that I didn't have much time left for other SL activities
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes of course!
Pema Pera: Are you gathering there every night, also on weekends?
Eliza Madrigal: Not on Saturday evenings
Eliza Madrigal: The rest of the time yes, and there are four of us who ring consistently
Eliza Madrigal: When I found the spot, I was surprised that sitting in an online group meditation could be tangible
Pema Pera: yes!
Pema Pera: very much so
Eliza Madrigal: I really get that now obviously :)
Pema Pera: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Shall I grab the session, btw?
Pema Pera: sure, thank you!
Pema Pera: I think Genesis is the guardian on call today
Eliza Madrigal: yes, thought she might talk about the retreat this morning :)
Pema Pera: yes, that was the plan
Pema Pera: and Storm will talk this afternoon
Eliza Madrigal: Ade, so nice to see you too :)
Pema Pera: six hours from now
Adelene Dawner: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, will try to be here for that, thanks
Pema Pera: How are you, Adelene?

"Perhaps all of us are quite weird. . . " Pema says, which reminds me of a line of Adelene's I quoted a few weeks ago: "There's a definite upside to knowing from the get-go that 'normal' isn't going to work for you."  :)

Adelene Dawner: I'm okay - in a weird mood today.
Eliza Madrigal: Yes me too. You're in good company. :)
Adelene Dawner: :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Pema Pera: perhaps all of us are quite weird . . . .
Adelene Dawner: hehe :)
Eliza Madrigal: Do you think so?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: Stim keeps telling me I'm crazy :-)
Eliza Madrigal: hahah, yes and he is so clear and balanced perhaps you should listen ;-)
Pema Pera: oh, I've been listening for the last 13 years, since I met him
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: what's the phrase 'if this is crazy I don't want to be sane?'
Adelene Dawner: :)
Pema Pera: nice :)
Eliza Madrigal: It is interesting to hear the way the two of you approach things together... have been reading the dialogs
Pema Pera: I hope it is somewhat interesting -- we meander a lot
Eliza Madrigal: yes that helps the reader (me) probably... the meandering
Eliza Madrigal: can take a kind of moment to process
Pema Pera: Some of what we say may be hard to guess, given that we've been talking for so many years already -- there must be all kind of context that is not explicitly mentioned
Eliza Madrigal smiles to Squee
Pema Pera: Was there any specific aspect that you found especially interesting, or puzzling?
Pema Pera: or just "weird"?
Eliza Madrigal: haha, no, not weird :) And if weird, good weird :)
Eliza Madrigal: For me I see leaps that at first I don't see a lead up to...
Eliza Madrigal: but then it seems you both go back
Eliza Madrigal: and that's your way of finding where to go back and clarify
Eliza Madrigal: or go in more ?
Eliza Madrigal: Hm...and specifically, the not practicing....
Eliza Madrigal: or this idea of practicing from a different stance... but those would be my words
Pema Pera: the notion of wu-wei?
Eliza Madrigal: yes.... and it is helpful to have many explanations of that isn't there?
Adelene Dawner: oh, that reminds me
Eliza Madrigal: we've been using the term a lot, but you're opening it up more

An interesting idea and way of thinking about wu-wei...

Adelene Dawner: I saw an article I wanted to share - reminded me of wu wei.
Adelene Dawner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight
Eliza Madrigal looks...
Pema Pera: yes, blindsight is a fascinating phenomenon
Eliza Madrigal nods
Pema Pera: how does it remind you of wu-wei?
Adelene Dawner: Well, from the description (and that's not the only place I saw it described, but I lost the other article in a FF crash) it sounds like using blindsight is an exercise in wu wei - since you don't *know* what you're seeeing, consciously, and you have to trust... 'instinct' isn't accurate there, really, but something other than conscious thought.
Eliza Madrigal: AHhhh, neat idea!
Pema Pera: yes, that is interesting
Eliza Madrigal: like something activated from seemingly 'nowhere'?
Pema Pera: we do know more than we know we know :)
Eliza Madrigal: or knowhere..hehe
Pema Pera: :)
--BELL--
Pema Pera: now do we have the knowherewithall to talk about it . . . .
Eliza Madrigal: :) this seems distinctive... you said before that talking about experiences in excercizes was a new approach...can see that
Eliza Madrigal: talking out of that blindspot... like when you think you don't understand something at all, then hear yourself explain it
Eliza Madrigal: an odd and wonderful thing
Pema Pera: yes, that is a key part of research too
Pema Pera: joint research, two or more individuals groping in the dark, sharing what they think they've seen so far
Pema Pera: and then trying to form hypotheses, no matter how flaky or confused at first
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I like that... not discouting what seems off-the-wall
Eliza Madrigal: *discounting
Pema Pera: but to really give the glimmers of possible new insight a chance, everybody in the group has to be receptive
Pema Pera: ready to wait, open up, not waltz over new ideas
Eliza Madrigal: Some may seem non-receptive but not be and visa versa? different activation times?
Pema Pera: yes, and we all learn together
Eliza Madrigal nods
Pema Pera: it's a rather fine balance
Pema Pera: if everybody is too careful, it can become stifling and sleepy, lacking freshness
Pema Pera: but if too many people jump up with new input too often, new tentative ideas get lost in the fray
Pema Pera: wu-wei is the perfect balance between the two

I shared a dream which seemed to fit the conversation...

Eliza Madrigal: I had a bit of a wu-wei dream last night... a kind of lesson... set in a traditional kind of context
Eliza Madrigal: It was about eating salad :)
Eliza Madrigal: I was sitting with a teacher and asking all these questions...
Eliza Madrigal: why this and what about that...
Eliza Madrigal: and he kept pointing to my salad
Eliza Madrigal: And I kept saying yes yes, I ate that yes..fine
Eliza Madrigal: and then thought, Oh, of course, he is going to tell me that I need to eat this MINDFully...
Eliza Madrigal: and felt discouraged but ready to say "yes, you're right..."
Eliza Madrigal: and then he shook his head and pointed to the salad again...
Eliza Madrigal: and all these things I'd been hearing floated up and I realized trying to eat the salad mindfully was the problem
Adelene Dawner: :)
Eliza Madrigal: if I paid attention to the deeper things...the things I actually wanted to do...
Eliza Madrigal: am drawn to and run to...
Eliza Madrigal: the salad would be eaten mindfully because that's the natural way
Eliza Madrigal: End story :)
Pema Pera: what a nice dream!
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Eliza Madrigal: yes, indeed :) I laughed...first learning from animals now food
Eliza Madrigal: thanks :)
Pema Pera: :)

What wu-wei can be...

Pema Pera: yes, we tend to have an idea of what wu-wei is, and that idea helps us to find more of it
Pema Pera: and that then helps us to refine our idea in turn
Pema Pera: but then we stick to that new idea
--BELL--
Pema Pera: and we have to learn to let that go in order to see/feel/experience more exquisitely what wu-wei can be . . . .
Eliza Madrigal: :) MM, yes, the idea of eating mindfully certainly is a good thing in itself... not about getting rid of that
Eliza Madrigal: and doing something 'else' that is 'better'?
Pema Pera: each situation asks for a unique response, unique to that situation . . . .
Pema Pera: and the more we learn to see, the more we intuitively respond in the proper way
Pema Pera: improvising on the spot
Eliza Madrigal: immediacy
Pema Pera: yes, no hesitation
Eliza Madrigal: Well really learning to live that way yes, would be radical :)
Pema Pera: wu-wei showed itself in two quite different ways, during the retreat: one is that by and large we all gaave each other room to talk;
Pema Pera: another was that whenever someone used that room to convey something really delicate, often that person felt a bit shy, unsure,
Pema Pera: and before long someone would then add a quietly encouraging response
Pema Pera: typically quite tender
Pema Pera: that was really marvelous to see and experience
Eliza Madrigal smiles yes it sounds that way
Pema Pera: and of course, we often do that here in SL too
Adelene Dawner: :)
Pema Pera: that's probably how we learned to do that as a group
Eliza Madrigal: that's an aspect of 'permission' you mentioned coming up there
Eliza Madrigal: I'm surprised a little, that you were surprised Pema... and so very glad it was that way for you all
Pema Pera: I was surprised at how well it worked, and how constantly
Pema Pera: it's one thing to see that happen between two old friends . . . or perhaps even three or four when they *really* know each other -- but twelve? That was the surprise
Eliza Madrigal nods, yes makes sense

Two aspects...

Pema Pera: So the two aspects here: giving room and responding, are complementary
Pema Pera: knowing when to pause, and knowing when to step in, and how
Pema Pera: The first part, no doubt, we have learned to do better with the 9-sec break, and the 90-second pauses here.
Pema Pera: do you have a suggestion as to how we have been learning the second part here, the responding?
Eliza Madrigal: I'm sure that I'm not the best person to suggest when to step in... constantly doubt myself as to whether I'm giving someone too much space/not enough
Eliza Madrigal: is certainly a skill :)
Eliza Madrigal: But talking about that is good!
Eliza Madrigal: Saying it openly... having permission, knowing there is benefit of the doubt, etc
Eliza Madrigal: We learn to trust each others' basic intentions to sharing
Eliza Madrigal: so even when clumsy, it is in love, in a way
Pema Pera: yes
Adelene Dawner: :)
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, have to run...lunch date. I'd love to hear more about this from you both
Pema Pera: thank you too, Eliza!
Pema Pera: have a good day!
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for such a nice morning! :) Bye for now

I did have to run, though I was enjoying the conversation very much. Adelene and Pema catch up a bit, and talk about virtual worlds... 

Adelene Dawner: So how have you been, Pema?
Pema Pera: A nice connection Eliza made, between love and wu-wei . . .
Adelene Dawner: :)
Pema Pera: I have been very quiet, during the retreat, and I am very busy now, catching up :-)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Pema Pera: an interesting challenge to preserve the peace of mind in the middle of the hubbub
Pema Pera: how about you?
Adelene Dawner: I'm at the opposite point in my schedule - just finished a large, and honestly annoying, project, and now I don't have anything on my to-do list but preparing for my trip to Colorado at the end of the month.
Pema Pera: Ah, you're going to visit Three?
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Pema Pera: how nice, say hi to him from me
Adelene Dawner: We're going to a tech convention to advertise for 3de. Should be fun.
Pema Pera: 3de is his/your company?
Adelene Dawner: his. I'm still technically a freelancer.
Pema Pera: is most of your work directed towards SL applications, or also outside SL?
Adelene Dawner: SL and OpenSim, still.
Pema Pera: is a large part of the tech convention oriented to virtual worlds?
Adelene Dawner: I'm actually not sure, I haven't asked Three - doesn't sound like it.
Pema Pera: so you'll be advertising both your own products and SL !
Pema Pera: and OpenSim
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm :)
Pema Pera: you just might ask some Linden whether there would be interest in having a Linden Lab booth near yours . . .
Pema Pera: to mutually reinforce the interest
Adelene Dawner: Well, *I* wouldn't. But I'll mention that to Three. ;)
Pema Pera: you as an example of SL activities, they to provide the background
Pema Pera: they don't often do that, but you never know
Adelene Dawner: It's very soon, anyway, I don't think they'd want to try to put something together so quickly.
Pema Pera: it may depend on whether they have someone in the area; they may have enough canned presentations
Adelene Dawner: true.
Pema Pera: I'm puzzled as to why SL is so slow in penetrating the main stream . . . many young people I talk about it have never heard of it
Pema Pera: and when I explain what it is, they don't seem interested
Adelene Dawner: Maybe you're highlighting the wrong parts?
Pema Pera: I wonder whether VWs are just slow to catch on, or whether we are waiting for a different company with a different approach . . . perhaps one of the OpenSIm startups?
Adelene Dawner: A lot of what SL does well is also done well (but not as well) in other online medums... it is hard to pin down the difference :)
Pema Pera: yes, the highlighting is important, I agree
Adelene Dawner: And yes, OS might get more interest.
Pema Pera: but people are so used to facebook, say, it's hard to tell them _in_words_ what it feels like to be face to face, with a shared presence
Pema Pera: it all sounds so much like video games which they discarded when they grew up :-)
Adelene Dawner: :)
--BELL--
Adelene Dawner: Well, we'll be doing our bit to advertise. We're going to have demo machines there for them to give it a try, and I intend to be building in realitme during the convention, so that should get a little interest, I hope. :)
Pema Pera: wow, that sounds great!
Pema Pera: Are you going to provide videos of what you do?
Pema Pera: would be neat to have a mixed RL/SL video, though that would be a lot of work to do right
Adelene Dawner: We haven't taken any video of any project I've been on, so probably not.
Adelene Dawner: Getting to watch me work should be just as good, I think :)
Pema Pera: oh sure, on the spot; but if you have a web site, and put a video there, you can reach far more people
Adelene Dawner: true :)
Pema Pera: I'd better go; another SL meeting coming up soon
Pema Pera: Enjoy Colorado!
Adelene Dawner: ok, see you around. ^.^
Pema Pera: bye for now!

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