2009.09.18 13:00 - flow and no-self

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

Lia Rikugun: hello yakuzza hello doug
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey doug, lia
--BELL--
Lia Rikugun: how are you both?
Yakuzza Lethecus: can´t get rid of my cold, but i am fine otherwise
Yakuzza Lethecus: so doug what are you trying people to do with ur project ?
Lia Rikugun: sorry to hear yakuzza i hope you are feeling better soon
Yakuzza Lethecus: just getting people to talk about aspects of the future and the rest is supposed to develop out of themselves ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s fine lia, it´s just annoying :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey wol
Wol Euler: hello invisible people
Yakuzza Lethecus: hope you´re not stressed from work anymore ?
Lia Rikugun: hello wol ;)
Wol Euler: hello doug, lia, yakuzza
Wol Euler: well, it's better than yesterday
Yakuzza Lethecus: and you got a good feeling ?
Wol Euler smiles and shrugs.
Wol Euler: it'll do.
doug Sosa: what?
Wol Euler: work, life, that kind of thing.
doug Sosa: if you takework from life, what is left?
Wol Euler: oh, I don't want to get rid of it entirely, it would be nice to have some time off and a few free evenings and weekends, taht's all.
doug Sosa: yep,
Wol Euler: how is everyone?
Lia Rikugun: good thank you :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: can´t get rid of my cold, but i am fine otherwise :)
doug Sosa: good. lots of details flying around.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey gaya
Lia Rikugun: hello gaya
Wol Euler: hello gayabunny
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
doug Sosa: :)
Lia Rikugun: wow you are cute
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks :)
Lia Rikugun: what would you like to talk about?
Gaya Ethaniel: Please suggest one Lia?
Lia Rikugun: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)

The 'each moment is the universe' book and I was always wondering while reading the book how these no-self no-time moments can be defined or found..

Lia Rikugun: i am reading a book called 'each moment is the universe'
Lia Rikugun: about zen buddhism
Lia Rikugun: it also talks about the no-time and no-self
Lia Rikugun: i am trying to look for these no-time no-self moments
Lia Rikugun: where I just do things
doug Sosa: there is only one and it is the universe :)
Lia Rikugun: not realizing any I and time
Wol Euler: are you familiar with the idea of "flow", Lia? That sounds pretty similar
Lia Rikugun: but it is funny, as soon as I recognize this as a no-self no-time moent, it is no one anymore
Lia Rikugun: because i start thinking about this moment
Lia Rikugun: wol i have heard from 'flow' but please tell me more
--BELL--
Wol Euler: well, it's a state very much like what you described, of total concentration and immersion and disappearing into whta you are doing
Wol Euler: the moments when you are so concentrated in your work (or whatever) that "you" disappear and the whatever just happens
Lia Rikugun: exactly :)
Lia Rikugun: so i am trying to collect these moments
Wol Euler nods and smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Lia Rikugun: and i thought it is funny that it gets lost so fast as soon as you start "thinking about it"
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Lia Rikugun: hello Qt
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Qt :)
Qt Core: Hi all
Wol Euler: like the way that it is impossible to find happiness by actively searching for happiness
Wol Euler: hello qt
Lia Rikugun: :) yes wol

time workshop wednesdays at 11am: most probably we will read the Time Space Knowledge book

Lia Rikugun: (by the way, I dont know if you know but during the time workshop wednesdays at 11am we want to read the time space knowledge book, maybe concentrate more on the time aprt if you are interested..)
Lia Rikugun: in kira cafe
Wol Euler: whihc day is that?
Lia Rikugun: Qt we are talking about no-time no-self moments
Lia Rikugun: every wednesday at 11am in the kira cafe
Lia Rikugun: or how wol called it 'flow'
Wol Euler: hello shyama
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Shyama :)
Lia Rikugun: hello shyama
Qt Core: hi Shyama
Lia Rikugun: shyama we were just talking about moments where you loose any idea of your self and any idea of time when you are so into doing what you do
Shyama Sheryffe: nods
Shyama Sheryffe: i know the feeling

Qt tells us abut his experiences of no-self no-time moments, mostly they come during reading a book

Qt Core: ohh, i love that, it is a pity it is so difficoult to reach in last years due to too many interructions by colleague
Qt Core: s
Lia Rikugun: i have the impression we have this every day no?
Qt Core: but i reach it often while reading
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
Lia Rikugun: how would you define such moments Qt?
Wol Euler: hello mick
Shyama Sheryffe: hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: Hi all
Lia Rikugun: hello mick
Qt Core: like time stop and i reach a full quiet place, where all the inforrmation i need are just at arm length and ideas appera, even if multiple clear and not mixed
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick
Mickorod Renard: ;)
Lia Rikugun: :) this sounds great
Qt Core: when there you really have to hit me phisically to gain my attention
Wol Euler chuckles
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Qt Core: same with book, both fiction and not fiction, i remember the first time it happened, i was ten and i was reading Ben Hur
Wol Euler: :)
Lia Rikugun: hello arabella
Wol Euler: hello ara
arabella Ella: Hiya!
Shyama Sheryffe: hi Arabella
Qt Core: but then, when the book is fiction i end in the book universe not in my worpspace ;-)
Qt Core: workspace
Qt Core: hi ara
Lia Rikugun: and you completely forget everything around you? :)
Qt Core: forget is aven weak, the rest of the universe is just not there
Qt Core: even
Lia Rikugun: i think this is very interesting because you can change realities so quickly reading a book
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello arabella :)
--BELL--
Qt Core: i stop moving my legs, if seated, and i don't feel backaches if i'm reading in bed
Qt Core: ops
Qt Core: the back aches thing is when i lose myself reading in bed and "awake" more than 4 hour after ;-)
Lia Rikugun: :)
Lia Rikugun: this is also what happens to me when I go to my "happy place"
Mickorod Renard: nice if you can get lost in a book

the difference between flow and immersion? and a book called "Flow" by Csikszentmihalyi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihaly_Csikszentmihalyihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

(and what a difficult name to write.. ;)

Gaya Ethaniel: What is the difference between flow and immersion?
Lia Rikugun: i forget everything around
Lia Rikugun: ;)
Lia Rikugun: hm flow and immersion?
Wol Euler: mmm, not sure there necessarily is one...
Lia Rikugun: flow is maybe less"I" just doing
Lia Rikugun: ??
Lia Rikugun: but obviously i dont know
arabella Ella: there is a very good book on Flow
arabella Ella: it involves motivation to do somthing you really love doing
Lia Rikugun: what is the title arabella please?
Qt Core: sometimes i'm not completly detached from reality but i see/hear/feel what happen but i see even my mind judging those stimuli as unimportand and not reacting to them
arabella Ella: Flow
Lia Rikugun: just flow :) ok thank you
arabella Ella: Title is Flow
Lia Rikugun: i think this is very important to realize basically what is your true self
arabella Ella: I know exactly what you mean Qt and how bad it feels if the phone rings for example on occasions like that ... a horrible disturbance taking u away from what you want to do and take pleasure in doing
Lia Rikugun: and then everything you do is very easy like floating
Wol Euler: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_2_9?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=csikszentmihalyi+flow&sprefix=csikszent
arabella Ella: :)
Wol Euler: Csikszentmihalyi is the guru and inventor of Flow :)
Lia Rikugun: thank you wol
Qt Core: a flow of consonant more than anything ;-)
Wol Euler: popularizer, one might rather say
arabella Ella: yes i met him at a conference a couple of years ago
Mickorod Renard: I am a person that does get into concentrating alot,,I am oblivious to whats happening around me
arabella Ella: and Wol ... to pronounce his name is easy
arabella Ella: Chick ... sent ... me ... high
Lia Rikugun: haha seemed to be very difficult
arabella Ella: :)
Wol Euler: heheheh
Gaya Ethaniel: What's Chick sent me high?
arabella Ella: now i can only pronounce it but not spell it correctly
arabella Ella: ok using copy and paste to spell corectly
arabella Ella: Csikszentmihalyi is pronounced chick sent me high
Wol Euler: well, I had to read from the back cover of the book :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... :)
--BELL--

here it gets a little quieter and Mick tells us about his "mad house"...

Mickorod Renard: lovely and quiet
Lia Rikugun: :)
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Mickorod Renard: I must sort my sound system out
Mickorod Renard: still living out of boxes
Wol Euler: heh
Lia Rikugun: wow me too, when did you move mick?
Mickorod Renard: 2 weeks ago
Lia Rikugun: oh :)
Wol Euler: oh, well, htat's OK still :)
Lia Rikugun: (I am not saying when I moved in :P)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: well, I am feeling more comfey now..its starting to look like home
Lia Rikugun: thats nice
Wol Euler: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Mickorod Renard: come on Lia,,you have to tell us when you moved
Lia Rikugun: hm i am ashamed
Lia Rikugun: ;)
arabella Ella: :)
Lia Rikugun: ....
Lia Rikugun: few months ago :)
Wol Euler: yeah, but you're a student, they are allowed to live in boxes
Mickorod Renard: he he
Lia Rikugun: was enjoying the summer
Lia Rikugun: in my defense
Lia Rikugun: :)
Mickorod Renard: when I moved my stuff back from France I realized I had boxes full that I had not opened in 10 years
Lia Rikugun: yes! :D
Wol Euler nods.
Lia Rikugun: this is fun
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Wol Euler: but did you throw them out?
Mickorod Renard: packed as I had took them to France
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Qt Core: i still have boxes in the attic and i've lived here for the last 29 years ;-)
arabella Ella: we discussed a similar topic here with Storm ... was it yesterday Qt?
Qt Core: yes
arabella Ella: As Storm said he had to throw out most of his stuff
Mickorod Renard: some I did..but most are full of my most precious items
Wol Euler: ... which you never ever see or hold.
Shyama Sheryffe: time to sleep, goodnight all
Mickorod Renard: yes
Gaya Ethaniel whispers. "Need to go. Good night."
Mickorod Renard: bye Shy
Wol Euler: 'night shyama, take cre
Lia Rikugun: good night shyama
Wol Euler: bye gaya
arabella Ella: nite Gaya
Lia Rikugun: bye gaya
arabella Ella: Nite Shyama
Mickorod Renard: bye Gaya
arabella Ella: how precious is stuff that is never present ... never seen?
Mickorod Renard: I know
Lia Rikugun: its mostly a memory
arabella Ella: and why is it so easy for us to hoard stuff so much?
Qt Core: never seen who say never present ? ;-)
arabella Ella: :)
Mickorod Renard: but because France home was like a mad house,,I darnt open those boxes
arabella Ella: he he
Lia Rikugun: what is a mad house?
arabella Ella: a normal regular home
Mickorod Renard: well,,first it had to be renovated
Lia Rikugun: hehe
Mickorod Renard: so lots of construction
Lia Rikugun: oh
Mickorod Renard: then it became normal to do strange activities there,,that fragile items wouldnt survive
Lia Rikugun: interesting
Wol Euler nods
Mickorod Renard: my lounge was 25mtrs by 11mtrs
Wol Euler: wow
Lia Rikugun: wow thats huge!
Lia Rikugun: nice house
Lia Rikugun: castle?
Mickorod Renard: and I would blay football and ride bicycles around it
Wol Euler: cool
Mickorod Renard: also birds and bats would fly around in it depending on wether it was day or night
Lia Rikugun: :) this sounds so nice, must have been in the middle of natire
Lia Rikugun: nature
Mickorod Renard: no,,it was just too much to manage
Lia Rikugun: ok i understand
--BELL--
Qt Core: time to go, bye all
Wol Euler: bye qt
arabella Ella: notte Qt
Mickorod Renard: bye QT
Lia Rikugun: byebye
Lia Rikugun: i think i need t leave soon too
Mickorod Renard: me too
Mickorod Renard: thankyou all , for tonite
Lia Rikugun: good night
Wol Euler: bye lia, mick, enjoy the evening
arabella Ella: nite Mick
Mickorod Renard: bye,,and you Wol
arabella Ella: nite Lia
Wol Euler: onigokko
Wol Euler: heheheheheh
Lia Rikugun: hehehehe
arabella Ella: he he
Mickorod Renard: its a mad house
Lia Rikugun: yes it is!
Wol Euler: just thought I'd start the weekend off well.
arabella Ella enjoys this so much
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
arabella Ella was wondering who the culprit was
arabella Ella: he he
Lia Rikugun: good night all! bye
arabella Ella would love to do this in RL too
Wol Euler: stop
Wol Euler: goodngiht!
arabella Ella: :)
Lia Rikugun: :) didnt want to interrupt
Yakuzza Lethecus: lol, we can try
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye wol
Wol Euler: I shall go too. 'night all, take care, be appy
arabella Ella: like Pila's tai chi too
arabella Ella: nite Wol
arabella Ella: i must go too
arabella Ella: nite