2009.09.11 01:00 - Land and neighbours and change, oh my

Wol Euler was guardian and commenter for this session.

I arrived slightly late and found Fael and Pema already in full flow.

Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
Pema Pera: Hi Fael!
Fael Illyar: How are you?
Pema Pera: oh, fine, I'm in Japan again, but this time only for two weeks
Fael Illyar: you're moving back and forth a lot lately :)
Pema Pera: yeah, but in October and November I will stay put for two months, in New York (and Princeton for my work)
Fael Illyar smiles.
Fael Illyar just woke up so might be a bit slow to get started.
Pema Pera: :-)
Fael Illyar: Hi Wol :)
Pema Pera: Hi Wol!
Wol Euler: hello pema, fael
Wol Euler: how are you this morning?
Wol Euler: afternoon/evening/whatever?
Pema Pera: afternoon, 5 pm, in Japan -- and fine :-)

Pema brings up a subject of current interest and excitement.

Pema Pera: I'm glad to see both of you here at the same time! I must admit that I have been puzzled at the exchange about land groups, and I'm pretty sure I don't completely understand what Fael has suggested -- I mean all the ramifications. Perhaps we can clear this up now?
Fael Illyar: sure :)
Pema Pera: the general idea was clear, but how exactly does it work, and what are the ties, the small print?
Fael Illyar: Ok, I'll outline the basic way of getting that service.
Fael Illyar: 1. Create a group for your land. This makes you an owner of the group.
Fael Illyar: 2. call the company and ask what avatar name to invite to the group with a role that allows them to invite new people and assign them with their own role. Nothing else.
Fael Illyar: 3. The avatar invited to the group donates tier.
Wol Euler: just a minute though
Wol Euler: there is a step 0
Wol Euler: the group must first acquire land, no?
Fael Illyar: no, that's step 4 unless you have someone with spare tier to do it for you.
Wol Euler: oh, sorry, I interrupted. please continue with the further steps
Fael Illyar: 4. The owner (or someone with a role that allows buying land for the group) buys the land for the group.
Fael Illyar: it's not step 0. because the group needs the tier before the land can be bought.
Fael Illyar: so, what misgivings/doubts do you have about it?
Wol Euler: well, I don't see the benefit.
Fael Illyar: if you're taking a whole sim worth of land, there isn't much of a benefit.
Wol Euler: In order to buy 54000 sq m of land to donate to the group, I (call it "I", doesn't matter who) have to hve a premium account and be paying full-sim tier
Wol Euler: if I already pay that, then what is my benefit from the arrangement?
Fael Illyar: if you already pay it. Then use your own tier :)
Wol Euler: I must pay it at least once, in order to be able to buy the land.
Fael Illyar: wrong
Fael Illyar: there's a buy land for group option in the buy land dialog

--BELL--

Fael Illyar: that works if the group you're buying it for has tier donated to it.
Wol Euler: aaaaah!
Wol Euler: that's why it is step *four*
Fael Illyar: yes
Wol Euler: gotcha
Fael Illyar: where the tier comes from doesn't really matter much as far as the group owning the land is concerned.
Fael Illyar: The tier donators do not need to have any control over it.
Fael Illyar: I moved to using to this kind of service to cut my costs recently.
Pema Pera: So the only small drawback is that the company paying the tier may suddenly disappear
Pema Pera: a risk which you can take if the savings are substantial, but perhaps not if the savings are small
Fael Illyar: The only other notable difference is the billing.
Wol Euler nods, In that case we would presumably have to come up with US$195 in two weeks or my account would be closed.
Fael Illyar: the tier vanishing from the group is not a huge problem, provided you hear of it.
Fael Illyar: it won't immediately wreck things.
Wol Euler: ok, so let's do some numbers. What does this cost?
Fael Illyar: I've heard it sometimes takes weeks for lindens totake notice.
Fael Illyar: the cost was 0.25L/sqm/week
Wol Euler: so L$54000 per month

Fael later pointed out that I had got this wrong: I'd forgotten to take into account the 10% landholding bonus that groups are allowed.

Fael Illyar: if you're not going to hit an exact tier level with Linden's, this most likely will save you some.
Fael Illyar: and if the tier level is small, the saving is quite noticeable
Fael Illyar: my own costs are $51 a month now for tier.
Fael Illyar: paying lindens directly they'd be $75 + VAT
Fael Illyar: so $92.5 IIRC
Wol Euler: actually, that would cost us more.
Wol Euler: 54000 lindens is 205 US$ right now.
Fael Illyar: you get charged VAT, I think Wol
Wol Euler: well, if I am going to be dealing with such sums of money, I would register to get an exemption. I am a company in RL :)
Fael Illyar: Pema won't be charged that.
Fael Illyar: ok, that changes things.
Fael Illyar: the difference in how to pay for the land is there too.
Fael Illyar: this one you pay in advance. Lindens send a bill month later.
Wol Euler: well, that only matters for first and last. the outgoing is the same
Fael Illyar: yep
Fael Illyar: if you drop closer to half a sim level in what you keep, this becomes cheaper though
Wol Euler: the service?
Fael Illyar: yes
Wol Euler: we are considering cutting back to a half-sim anyway. what would that rate be?
Fael Illyar: goes down linearly with the sqms :)
Wol Euler: do they have a website?
Fael Illyar: yes, it's one of the oldest land companies in SL... moment
Fael Illyar: http://ninjaland.net/
Wol Euler: ty!
Fael Illyar: I think there are other companies providing similar service too.
Fael Illyar: I've also been toying with the idea of taking up Pema's offer to give away the land to move my Ryokan to one of the sims :)
Fael Illyar: but that's starting to get a bit urgent to decide :)
Fael Illyar: the current land it's on is PG and ... that's starting to feel a bit restrictive :)
Wol Euler: yeah, I can see that.
Wol Euler: tell you what, if you'd be satisfied with a 1/4 sim, it looks like we will not claim Buyeo
Fael Illyar: that'd be plenty.
Wol Euler: There are two adjoining bits of land, each roughly 14000
Wol Euler: but they connect at thte corner
Fael Illyar: I'm keeping around 14ksqm of land for the moment.
Fael Illyar: just... I wonder if they're right shape.
Fael Illyar: I might have to rebuild
Wol Euler: mmhmm that would be an issue. It#s not square.
Fael Illyar: my land is not square either

--BELL--

Fael Illyar: I forget the exact dimensions though, that I'd need for the ryokan.
Fael Illyar: could I begin making a copy of the ryokan over there already if I choose to do so?
Wol Euler: gaya is stilll there, but adams has already removed her house
Wol Euler: there is also a seaside pavilion on a pier, which is rather nice.
Wol Euler: have a look...
Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, I know the spot then
Fael Illyar: it could even be the right size.
Wol Euler: between two inlets
Wol Euler: I think it's quite a bit smaller than you have now, though, effectively.
Fael Illyar: I'd better take a look then :)
Fael Illyar: I wouldn't be moving all of it.
Fael Illyar pulls up Storm's latest map

Gratitude.

Wol Euler: by the way, may I take this opportunity (points at the recorder) to say "thank you" to Pema for making all this available to us over the years.
Pema Pera: yw, Wol :-)
Wol Euler: I'm very grateful, and somewhat embarrassed that it never occurred to ask how it came about, whether I might help out with the tier on the land that I was using.
Pema Pera: It was a calculated investment, to get PaB up and running -- and the two options were from the beginning: keep it if funding materializes, and not if not.
Pema Pera: I did receive funding from Fetzer, during the first half year
Pema Pera: but that ran out about a year ago.
Pema Pera: It made a big difference, though, with buying most of the land
Wol Euler: so you have been carrying these costs alone for a year? I never knew.
Pema Pera: but not with the subsequent tier
Wol Euler: I never asked...
Pema Pera: :-)
Fael Illyar: Ah Right, Pema, you might want to contact Ninjaland to ask if they'd give an offer for the land no-one claims.
Pema Pera: interesting idea, Fael
Fael Illyar: It's likely to be more than bots would get it for if they do.
Pema Pera: I'll discuss it with Storm
Fael Illyar: other land companies out there too
Wol Euler: yeah
Fael Illyar: landmachine.com was one I think 
Wol Euler: I missed a great opportunity, the land beside my plot from the previous disbursement came up for sale at L$2 per metre
Pema Pera: As soon as the chat log is up, I can point Storm to it -- rather than trying to summarize :-)

Neighbourhoods and change.

Pema Pera: there does seem to be quite an exodus from the mainland, though
Wol Euler: while I was dithering around considering how to avoid paying tier, somebody else bought it and put it back on sale -- for L$6 per metre
Fael Illyar: Yes, the exodus is keeping the prices low.
Pema Pera: compared to one and a half year ago, far more than half my neighbors have disappeared
Wol Euler: there is a worrying amount of yellow on the map.
Pema Pera: often disappeared from SL altogether
Fael Illyar: it's not much you can get for it but it's something
Pema Pera: while new people generally buy islands, it seems
Pema Pera: the first half year of PaB I felt the presence of a neighborhood
Pema Pera: but through the combination of us growing and others dropping out, it now feels as if we live on a separate island anyway
Fael Illyar: yes, that's a factor.
Pema Pera: it does make the "virtual world" a bit less "world" like . . . .
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Fael Illyar: yes, it's more of your own big playground no-one else comes to like that way.
Pema Pera: I hate to say it, but I almost miss the annoying ad towers that I associate with the first months of PaB !
Wol Euler: heheheh
Pema Pera: in those early days, Isen and Bunan and other neighbors used to drop by from time to time
Pema Pera: doesn't happen anymore, with *any* neighbor
Pema Pera: even though our border is so much larger now
Fael Illyar: the neighbors could also be awed by the size of the lands.
Fael Illyar: and be fearful to contact so rich people :)
Wol Euler laughs
Pema Pera: yes, there are many factors working all in the same direction
Pema Pera: :)

Storm appears in the soon-to-be village, but does not join us. I change the subject to PaB itself.

Wol Euler: speak of the devil :)

--BELL--

Pema Pera: :)
Wol Euler: speaking of absent friends, I met Solobill last night
Wol Euler: we were talking about the direction of the group, the sessions to be particular
Fael Illyar smiles.
Pema Pera: yes?
Wol Euler: that they seem to be drifting away from meditation/awareness/appreciation/contemplation into pure discussion
Wol Euler: rather like this session, actually.
Pema Pera: yes, it would be good to add a bit more structure, in general -- which would be a natural upshot of the RL retreat
Fael Illyar: Well, management discussion, this one, really.
Pema Pera: unfortunately, in my own case, I have been very busy with a five-day astronomy workshop in Tokyo that I co-organized
Wol Euler: oh, cool.
Pema Pera: but I do hope to come more regularly from now on
Pema Pera: I see two options (at least) to respond to the problem you and Solo mentioned:
Pema Pera: 1) to try to add actual practice periods during the sessions, as we did in the RL retreat
Pema Pera: 2) to set aside specific theme sessions to address specific more practice oriented topics
Pema Pera: and of course, no reason not to do both
Pema Pera: what do you both think?
Wol Euler: I would personall ywelcome both.
Pema Pera: do you have a suggestion for 2)? What topics, how often?
Wol Euler: hard to say, the best theme sessions / series of sessions, have been those that arose naturally
Wol Euler: like Geo on love, or Sophia on prayer
Wol Euler: it#s hard to plan for something that might come up in conversation
Fael Illyar: practise periods could be nice but ... I've heard some complaints about the ones we have already.
Pema Pera: perhaps the best thing is to start with practices that happened in the RL retreat
Fael Illyar points at the thingie that announces the 90 second pauses
Pema Pera: what kind of complaints, Fael?
Fael Illyar: well, it's mostly people who mistake it for a required thing :)
Wol Euler: who complains? I've never heard that.
Fael Illyar: ah... best leave the name unsaid :)
Fael Illyar: (no not me)
Pema Pera: I'll make a suggestion on the PaB email group soon
Pema Pera: right now, I have to do some administrative things and then back to RL
Wol Euler: me too, work calls.
Pema Pera: What would you prefer for theme days/times?
Wol Euler: personally, during the week 1pm
Wol Euler: weekends anything except 7pm
Pema Pera: problem is I am asleep at 1 pm this coming week . . .
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Pema Pera: and 1 am excludes the North Americans
Wol Euler: the roundness of the world, and all that.
Pema Pera: while 7 pm excludes Europeans
Wol Euler: that leaves 7am
Pema Pera: so 7 am seems best, but that is 11 pm for me
Fael Illyar: 7am does sound ideal for most
Pema Pera: not ideal, to say the least, but I'll see what I can do . . . .
Wol Euler: it's probably the least exclusive
Pema Pera: any prefered days, or non-prefered days?
Fael Illyar: I could do 7am or 1pm myself... 1am too if I'm not up too late :)

--BELL--

Wol Euler: I could do 7am on Friday or the weekends
Fael Illyar: no preferred days for me really.
Wol Euler: weekends wold be preferred
Wol Euler: (I work in an open-plan office with people sitting behind me, I can't visit SL during working hours)
Pema Pera: hmmm, perhaps I should hold off proposing anything until I"m back in the US, on 9/22, though others of course could go right ahead :-)
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Pema Pera: see you soon again!
Wol Euler: bye for now, pema, take care
Fael Illyar: See you later Pema. Nice to see you again :)
Pema Pera: and of course, we can try to work more on practice during any session -- this session was an exception
Pema Pera: and I'm glad we got the tier options sorted out!
Wol Euler: :)
Pema Pera: so much easier than using email
Fael Illyar: yes
Pema Pera: bfn
Fael Illyar waves.
Fael Illyar: See you later Wol :)
Wol Euler: I must go. bye for now, fael, enjoy the day
Fael Illyar: You too :)
Fael Illyar waves.