2009.09.28 19:00 - death, dreams and awareness

The Guardian for this meeting was Fox Monacular. The comments are by Fox Monacular.

doug Sosa: hi eos.
Eos Amaterasu: Hi doug, paradise
Paradise Tennant: hiya doug .. eos .. arch :)
doug Sosa: paradise!
Paradise Tennant: :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Arch
Eos Amaterasu: Does anyone have a pregnant topic?
Paradise Tennant: :))
Archmage Atlantis: Death
Paradise Tennant: hmm was thinking about the benefits of silence ..thought it would be interesting to talk about it :) lol
doug Sosa: death is not a topic. :)
Paradise Tennant: death is good too
Archmage Atlantis: Is that pregnant enough
Eos Amaterasu: death is life's best idea
Paradise Tennant: yes
doug Sosa: no, life is death's best idea.
Paradise Tennant: well we have a beginning two sides :)
doug Sosa: Life's best idea is love.
Paradise Tennant: I will take the middle they are both good ideas ;)
Archmage Atlantis: Love ends when survival is required
Eos Amaterasu: sometimes survival ends when love is required
doug Sosa: paradise, why don't you show up in a list residents? can't ask you to be a friend :(
Archmage Atlantis: Nice try Eos
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eos Amaterasu: little deaths happen all the time, every moment letting go into another
Eos Amaterasu: I think that's part of the panic of the 90 secs
Archmage Atlantis: I so not disagree with that EOS
doug Sosa: today i haad one of those moments, the kind that can suck us under. I found out
Archmage Atlantis: The big death does come
doug Sosa: I've got some leakage in the back of my left retina. but 9 sec
doug Sosa: realy helped. "What the hell i thought, after abit, it ok, whatever.."
Eos Amaterasu: hmm
Eos Amaterasu: even that's in the big 90 secs - sobering nonetheless
Paradise Tennant: no worries just added you
doug Sosa: :)
Archmage Atlantis: I face it
doug Sosa: see, things look up when least expected :)
Archmage Atlantis: I will not let it own me
Eos Amaterasu: let it be itself and unwind itself as well as wind itself up
Archmage Atlantis: Nice try again Eos
Eos Amaterasu: I'm Avis
Paradise Tennant: hmm reading a very good book called what happens when you die by dr parnia ..the chat that is conducting nde research big study
Archmage Atlantis: What happens is one ends
Archmage Atlantis: Even if there is reincarnation
Archmage Atlantis: this life ends
Archmage Atlantis: this body ends
Eos Amaterasu: indeed
Paradise Tennant: *chap
Paradise Tennant: most common outcome of nde is significant personality and behaviour changes
doug Sosa: Like falling glass over edge of table, in very slow motion..
Paradise Tennant: people become less materialistic more family oriented more alturistic getting near death sounds ok
Archmage Atlantis: nde is near death experience?
Paradise Tennant: yes
Archmage Atlantis: I have had 4 of those
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Eos Amaterasu: it's got to be real enough to scare you
doug Sosa: lets try nle... near life experience, first.
Paradise Tennant: you kind of have to leave your body :)
Archmage Atlantis: I did
Eos Amaterasu: I like that idea, Doug :-)
Paradise Tennant: what happened arch :)
Archmage Atlantis: Try it, I doubt you will like it
Eos Amaterasu: I will give that one my best nice try :-)
Archmage Atlantis: car accidents
doug Sosa: the greeks said death mut not be so terrific, or te gods would try it.
Archmage Atlantis: Body damage
Eos Amaterasu: hmm
Eos Amaterasu: Argh! That's real enough!
Archmage Atlantis: Intensive care for 45 days
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: Lungs popped out, ribs were destroyed
Archmage Atlantis: Ankles were shattered
Archmage Atlantis: One nurse said "you will not die on my watch"
Archmage Atlantis: One surgeon went in twice
Archmage Atlantis: Into my chest
Archmage Atlantis: It was 2000
doug Sosa: I had a pateint one, a brilliant surgeon. a girl cam in from a car acidnet toally broken. they said she woul be deas in a few hours. he started to operate, worked at it for more than 24 hours. A year later they married.
Archmage Atlantis: My partner had left for Arizona for his 3rd kidney transplant
Eliza Madrigal: Hi guys :)
Paradise Tennant: :) doug ..nice story :)
Archmage Atlantis: Do I qualify to speak of these issues now?
Paradise Tennant: hiya eliza
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Elly
Paradise Tennant: during this time you had an out of boy experience arch ?
doug Sosa: of course, but you didn't have to go through all that to qualify.
Paradise Tennant: body
Eliza Madrigal: Just peeking in for a few minutes :)
doug Sosa: there is stuf in lao tzu i don't really undersand "if you live as though life doesn't matter you can;t be killed."
Archmage Atlantis: Lao Tse is the first to see
Paradise Tennant: definition of nde .. usually entails leaving your body .. feeling of peace .. really pleasant feelings of being loved.. no desire usually to go back in the body :)
Archmage Atlantis: This RL matters
Fox Monacular: hi everyone, sorry I'm late
Paradise Tennant: hiya fox
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fox :)
Archmage Atlantis: It is a test
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Fox
Eliza Madrigal: I was sorry not to make your first session last week, Fox! :)
Fox Monacular: sorry about that... late evening RL sruff...
Fox Monacular: that's ok :) Eliza
Eliza Madrigal nods... it happens :)
Paradise Tennant: no worries :)
Eos Amaterasu: paying attention to ordinary little gaps, endings, transitions
Eos Amaterasu: I think this how 9 secs, 90 secs, relates to death, loss of identity, letting go (maybe not willingly)
Archmage Atlantis: I give you a poem
Eos Amaterasu: just finding that in the little things
Archmage Atlantis: White Frogs Song Outside my windows the white frogs sing Some would say they chirp like birds I live by the biggest swamp Where pythons and alligators die in battle I wait to turn on this dayтАЩs news As I know it will be old Humankind, are we worthy The white frogs ask
Eos Amaterasu: back to Doug's "near life experience" - are we worthy?
Fox Monacular: 'near life
Fox Monacular: sounds great
Fox Monacular: what does it mean?
Eos Amaterasu: I don't know - Doug?
doug Sosa: That we think we are awake but really rather asleep. 9 sec often reveals that.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Fox Monacular: asleep? in what sense?
Eliza Madrigal: I'd agree with that... when we notice we are alseep, we wake
Eos Amaterasu: I'm also reminded of something Eliza said yesterday, that you can let go into "up", not just let go into "drop"
Eos Amaterasu: something like that :-)
doug Sosa: this morning, forgive the language, i was standing pissing 9not giving anything away) and i caught myself, am i really aware/ decided to do the 9sec in themiddle.
Fox Monacular: sometimes when we notice we're asleep we have a lucid dream :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles@Fox
Fox Monacular: :)
doug Sosa: Amazing, consciouness spred to thriple, quaddruple, the intensity..
Paradise Tennant: blinks
Eliza Madrigal: So when we notice we are asleep when seemingly awake, we have a more lucid life
Eos Amaterasu: the whole world perks up
doug Sosa: i saw much more of the room, the raptors in the sky, the reflections off the windows of nearby house..
Fox Monacular: that's one of the goals of stuff like dream ypga
Fox Monacular: yoga
Fox Monacular: cool, doug
Eliza Madrigal: MM
--BELL--
Paradise Tennant: well going to excuse my self .. sorry busy week .. interesting as always thank you all :))
Eos Amaterasu: kept going through the 90 secs, but also kept in the space of my going
Archmage Atlantis: The tatoo I wear is Kanje
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Paradise :)
Fox Monacular: bye Paradise
Archmage Atlantis: For Heaven
Paradise Tennant: nite nite all :)) big wave
Archmage Atlantis: It is like the oldest writing
doug Sosa: :)
Eos Amaterasu: night
Archmage Atlantis: Pictures of words
Eliza Madrigal: keeping the space of going, hmm
Eos Amaterasu: tien, or tian, heaven
doug Sosa: inchnese, japanese too?
Eliza Madrigal: When a child, I pictured a place "heaven" but now see constant unfolding...giving up into maybe
Archmage Atlantis: Would have to ask, gien to me by another who comes here
Eos Amaterasu: Chinese; Japanese characters are same, spoken diff
Archmage Atlantis: He speaks Japanese
Eos Amaterasu: sometimes in wildflower, sometimes in sand
doug Sosa: character origin: big man balancing horizon on head :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Fox, do you know much about dream yoga? I know one breathing technique only
Fox Monacular: I have read a couple of books...
Eos Amaterasu: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/хдй
Fox Monacular: actually, I can probably find a link to one in pdf online
Eliza Madrigal: There was one I read most of in the bookstore one day, but it seemed to complicated at the time
Eos Amaterasu: There are many techniques, most of them related to finding some kind of reminder, and then an "am I dreaming" test
Eos Amaterasu: remember to question whether you're dreaming
Eliza Madrigal nods
Archmage Atlantis: I give another writing as it seems time
Eos Amaterasu: text in dreams does not stay still
Archmage Atlantis: Statement Of Purpose Of тАУ The New Library of Alexandria in SL The ancient Library of Alexandria (~300 BC - early AD) was charged with collecting all written human knowledge. Its destruction was a severe loss to the perpetuation of that knowledge, and to the advancement of human understanding. Now, humanityтАЩs store of wisdom and knowledge exists in numerous forms--books, art, music, and especially electronic media. This тАЬwealthтАЭ could easily disappear, again causing a serious loss to civilization, unless measures are taken to preserve the availability of these materials in accessible forms for all time to come. While no longer accomplishable under one roof, current and future technology must be used to insure its continuous existence. The purpose of this тАЬAlexandria NovusтАЭ project, The New Library of Alexandria, is to provide a focal point and gathering place where participants can come together to develop and carry out plans that will accomplish the goal of continuous preservation, p
Eos Amaterasu: you can read analog clocks, but not digital
Fox Monacular: http://www.awakening-intuition.com/D...u_Rinpoche.pdf
Archmage Atlantis: ropagation, and growth of the recorded record of the fruits of human intellect.
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, great, thanks
Fox Monacular: cool
Fox Monacular: you are right, Eos, text in dreamn never stays still
Eliza Madrigal: When in dreaming, i do pretty well seeing that I'm dreaming... but Hm... think it would be nice more often :)
Eliza Madrigal: I've read pab logs in sleep before hahah
Eos Amaterasu: You can also go from waking to dreaming, and stay awake
Archmage Atlantis: Have any of you taken the dream walk?
Fox Monacular: in fact I don't know anyone who claims to have read something in their dream (other than short signs or something)
Fox Monacular: dream walk?
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, Eos that I would call a vision
Eos Amaterasu: that's probably what visions are!
Eliza Madrigal nods
Fox Monacular: Eos, that's what dream yogas are supposed to accomplish
Eliza Madrigal: those edges and transitions
Eos Amaterasu: you go into the dreamtime, to the songs that sing the world
Eliza Madrigal smiles widely
Fox Monacular: staying aware and awake across states
Archmage Atlantis: Yes Eos
Archmage Atlantis: I have been taken there, kicking and fighting
Eos Amaterasu: I've been noticing more how much, probably we all, dream, dream-think, while waking
Fox Monacular: daydreaming
Archmage Atlantis: Daydreaming is a mild form
Eos Amaterasu: there's also a quality of waking from dreaming, or similar to that, in PaB, APA
Eliza Madrigal: when we get into a playful, open, sharing place... sometimes that is like collective dreaming...
Eos Amaterasu: sharing imagery
Fox Monacular: for Freud for example, phantasies, daydreams were made of the same stuff as dreams
Eos Amaterasu: we have a kind of language of ourselves
Archmage Atlantis: To walk in the dream time, that is to experience new reality
Eos Amaterasu: that plays out at more awake and less awake levels
Fox Monacular: you mean like australian dreamtime?
Eliza Madrigal thinks of different levels of air
Archmage Atlantis: They are near the first humankind.....DNA studies seem to say that
Eos Amaterasu: these are all ways to access where reality gets soft, pliable, plays with you, you as it, etc....
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: Humans before us used tools, had thumbs
Archmage Atlantis: We are capable of dreaming the future
Fox Monacular: yes, I agree
Archmage Atlantis: And singing the past
Fox Monacular: definitely
Eliza Madrigal: there is something about that first moment falling into sleep which seems to be a letting go which allows a kind of insight to emerge
Fox Monacular: hypnagogic imager
Fox Monacular: images
Eliza Madrigal: yes...that first drop
Fox Monacular: if you resist falling deeper asleep and rouse yourself to notice them they can be quite amazing
Eliza Madrigal: like your consciousness was determined to stay too busy to let you see
Fox Monacular: it's one of the funnest things we do in the lab - sleep onset awakenings
Eliza Madrigal would prob be a good test case
Eliza Madrigal: heh
Fox Monacular: you wait for a particular EEG signature, and wake them up
Eos Amaterasu: you study that, FOx?
Fox Monacular: yes:)
Eos Amaterasu: Have you experimented with communication from lucid dreaming?
Fox Monacular: not really, but we've asked a lucid dreamer to signal to us when in a dream moving his eyes up and down
Fox Monacular: and recorded it, it was quite exciting... lucid communication is something I would like to do one day
Eos Amaterasu: Exercise for tonight: wake up in your dream and appreciate the presence of appearance
Fox Monacular: easy to say... :)
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: : )
Eos Amaterasu: You might see people in your dreams holding APA signs
Fox Monacular: APA?
Eos Amaterasu: whch you find hard to read, which means you're dreaming!
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Fox Monacular: haha, yes
Eos Amaterasu: Appreciate the Presence of Appearance
Fox Monacular: :)
Eos Amaterasu: Let's give it a try!
Eliza Madrigal: I don't know if text moves, but I had a pretty clear dream of sending the wrong information through IMs once
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Fox Monacular: I was trying to make a phone call last night in my dream... and couldn't get the numbers right...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fox Monacular: it was very frustrating... I was supposed to save the world from the curse of some primeval evil
Archmage Atlantis: I leave you with wishes for a new year, and a new covenant Our Creator, our Sustainer, we have no other but you Our Creator, our Sustainer, help us for your own sake Our Creator, our Sustainer, grant us a blessed New Year Our Creator, our Sustainer, annul all miscreant decrees against us Our Creator, our Sustainer, annul the plots of our enemies Our Creator, our Sustainer, rid us of tyrants Our Creator, our Sustainer, rid us of pestilence, sword, famine, captivity,and destruction Our Creator, our Sustainer, forgive us and parden our sins.
Fox Monacular: I think I watch too much true blood
Eliza Madrigal smiles.... yes tough to think of phone numbers when you must save the world
Eliza Madrigal: I had rather clear and interesting dreams the night that we played tai chi here with Pila, too
Fox Monacular: I knew that I knew the number, but I couldn't get the sequence right... like reading in the drea,
Eos Amaterasu: maybe find a rotary phone next time
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Eliza Madrigal: will have to go back in time
Eos Amaterasu: whoa!
Fox Monacular: it was a rotary phone!!
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: !! well that solves that
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Steven!
Fox Monacular: hey Stevenaia
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: ok, you need to call the operator!
stevenaia Michinaga: thought I;d drop in for a moment
Fox Monacular: no, Eliza, it didn't solve it...
Fox Monacular: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: literaly
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Eliza Madrigal: So the world went unsaved?
Fox Monacular: the evil guy who looked like Morgan Freeman put everyone under his spell
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, Morgan would never do that
Eos Amaterasu: yuck, I hate it when that happens!
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Fox Monacular: and their eyes went black, which meant that they are revercing to the state of total ID
Fox Monacular: yes, the evil guy looked like a nice guy
Eliza Madrigal: Morgan is always playing God
Fox Monacular: so everyone liked him, and I was the only one who knew the truth
stevenaia Michinaga: is this a movie you are discussing?
Eos Amaterasu: Fox's movie
Fox Monacular: no, it's a dream I had last night:)
Eliza Madrigal: Ohhh, yes I would have fallen for his scheme
Eos Amaterasu: 3D, all sensations - his dream
Fox Monacular: immersive cinema of the future
Eliza Madrigal: :) PaB Playhouse
Eos Amaterasu: time for me to dream - ciao all!
Eliza Madrigal: Night Eos :)
Fox Monacular: so Morgan was getting close to hypnotizig my baby, and then she cried and woke me up
Fox Monacular: sweet dreams Eos
Eos Amaterasu: Ah...
Fox Monacular: spooky
Eos Amaterasu: Thanks Fox, Eliz, Steve...
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, your baby can resist Morgan's powers
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fox Monacular: no, what's spooky is the continuity between dream and reality
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I definitely agree
--BELL--
Fox Monacular: I mean, we know that RL stimuli get incorporated but still
stevenaia Michinaga: isn;t it supposed to be that way?
Eliza Madrigal: one flowing into the other you mean, Steven?
Fox Monacular: yes, of course
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, and related
Fox Monacular: but sometimes the synchronicity is spooky - like dreaming of someone only to wake up to them calling you on the phone
Fox Monacular: or precognitive dreams...
Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed
stevenaia Michinaga: sometimes I thing the dream gets created after you answer the phone and posted to your past
Fox Monacular: but sometimes not...
Fox Monacular: :)
Eliza Madrigal nods... that's true too... and often I wake up thinking a dream was very ordinary, and then write pages unpacking it
Eliza Madrigal: big things in small packages :)
Fox Monacular: I'm supposed to study dreams scientifically and have a natural sciences approach, but I have had some pretty crazy experiences that I can't deny :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I used to do a dream journal when I moved once, pages and pages of details
Fox Monacular: yes, that's a very rich practice, you can uncover a lot of stuff
Eliza Madrigal: This has been a major focus for me this year in particular, though I've always paid attention
stevenaia Michinaga: amazing how you can still remember them years later if you write quick enough
Eliza Madrigal nods
Fox Monacular: for me the dream diary was too much... I would rememver dreams better and better and then I ended up spending at least an hour every morning just writing them down
Fox Monacular: and I would think about them all day
Eliza Madrigal nods
Fox Monacular: and then go to work... in the dream lab... and talk about dreams!
Eliza Madrigal: yes I try to take a little note, but sometimes there is something that just insists on being seen!
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Fox Monacular: so I just stopped. now I only write down really interesting stuff
stevenaia Michinaga: I would wake myslef up in the middle of the night and write, could beatly read it int he morning :)
Fox Monacular: :) I used to have a pen with a little light on the tip
Fox Monacular: so you can write in the dark
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, great idea :)
stevenaia Michinaga: nice, I did this before that technology existed
Fox Monacular: it used to drive my ex crazy
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: My whole interview for the Chronicles with Adams, turned out to be dreams...wasn't intended that way
Fox Monacular: cool, I should read it!
Eliza Madrigal: I'd love for you too...would be interesting to hear your thoughts
Eliza Madrigal: but dreaming kind of brought me to PaB... or a gecko in a dream anyway :)
Eliza Madrigal: We live in a wonderous world :)
stevenaia Michinaga: love when Maxine speaks of her dream work
Fox Monacular: synchronicity brought me to PaB
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Fox Monacular: I can never manage to go to the dream seminar! every tuesday something else happens!
Eliza Madrigal: And yes, I love that Maxine speaks of the topography of our consciousness/unconscious.... MM
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, the timing is bad for me too
Fox Monacular: it's during the day when I'm at home with baby... and it's 5 pm for me... so after her nap :(
Eliza Madrigal: Sundays we get into those discussions too sometimes
Fox Monacular: what's on Sundays?
Eliza Madrigal: Maxine's PaB session
Eliza Madrigal: For a few weeks we talked about dreams and time...that was an interesting thing to look at
stevenaia Michinaga: thank you
Fox Monacular: dreams change with time... and then there's time perception in dreams
Eliza Madrigal: The discussions took turns here and there, but yes the part I was most keyed into
Eliza Madrigal: was the time perception
Eliza Madrigal: how instantaneous change can be, etc...overlapping times
Eliza Madrigal: rotary phones, for instance, seems a time dream to me :)
Fox Monacular: right... sometimes it seems like a whole life happened in one REM cycle
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Eliza Madrigal: Okay... getting sleepy
Fox Monacular: it's interesting... research data shows pretty convincingly that if you wake someone up after, say 5 min of REM
Fox Monacular: they would say that they've been dreaming about 5 mins
Eliza Madrigal: really?
--BELL--
Fox Monacular: but with all the context of 'dream' memory
Eliza Madrigal: I thought the accepted idea was that the person experiences it as much longer
Fox Monacular: not necessarily
stevenaia Michinaga: some dreams seem to last for hours
Eliza Madrigal: neat!
Fox Monacular: it's the context that changes
Fox Monacular: some REM cycles last for over an hour too
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, that goes against what I thought also
Eliza Madrigal is ready to pack up and be Fox's assistant
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
Fox Monacular: as soon as I write my thesis, i'll hire you:)
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Eliza Madrigal grins
Fox Monacular: oh, right, and as soon as I do a phd
Eliza Madrigal: Well if I'm going to make such big life changes, I'd better get some sleep
Fox Monacular: sleep on it
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Eliza Madrigal: Night to you both :)
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for a lovely evening
Fox Monacular: big decisions are better after dreaming
Fox Monacular: good night Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: :) Sweet dreams
Fox Monacular: I'm afraid I have to go too
Fox Monacular: baby's still not in bed :)
stevenaia Michinaga: bye fox
Fox Monacular: night Steve