2009.09.15 19:00 - Autopoietic Village

The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

We play off the new village experience

Eliza Madrigal: Howdy neighbor
Eos Amaterasu: Hi nearby denizen :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: nice to walk here
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I liked that too
Eos Amaterasu wonders what denizen means
Eliza Madrigal: :) hahah
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Stevenaia, I also walked :-)
Eos Amaterasu: This will be much healthier for us!
stevenaia Michinaga: lovely chronical interview Eos
Eliza Madrigal: I'm really enjoying it so far... walking over to say hello
Eos Amaterasu: thnx - I've started looking at those now - really interesting!
Eliza Madrigal: and hahah about being healthier
stevenaia Michinaga: cough
Eos Amaterasu: Yours, Eliza, for example!
Fox Monacular: Hi everyone
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Cultivator
stevenaia Michinaga: I walked to fast, out of breath
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fox! :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello fox
Eos Amaterasu: We could have races to here
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Eos Amaterasu: 9 secs max!
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Eliza Madrigal: It is funny... I went back to a few interviews too... Wol's yesterday in fact...
Eliza Madrigal: nice snapshots
Eliza Madrigal: We all seem to be adventurers :)
Eos Amaterasu: And now we're settling down in the village :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Fox, have you had a chance to wander the village area?
Fox Monacular: no, I just read about it all today
Eliza Madrigal: I know you're busy... hope all is well
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Doug
Eliza Madrigal: Hi doug
Fox Monacular: I'd really like to check it out
Fox Monacular: Hello Doug
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Doug
Fox Monacular: where is the village?

--BELL--

doug Sosa: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Isn't the pause long when you want to answer a question? heh
Fox Monacular: :)
Fox Monacular: yes
Eliza Madrigal: Fox, the village is behind us....
stevenaia Michinaga: you teaching at Drexel in Philly? my intern goes there
Eliza Madrigal: walk right back there and you are in it :)
Fox Monacular: cool!
Eliza Madrigal: :D
Fox Monacular: so people will be building their places there?
Eliza Madrigal: yes... building has begun
Eliza Madrigal: Did you get the email with directions and such, for Storm?
doug Sosa: :0 now there is the challenge.
Fox Monacular: yes, I didn't really have a chance to read them carefully... and I don't really understand SL lingo too well yet :)
doug Sosa: no, we have a sl project there, from stanford.
Eliza Madrigal: :) understandable. When you walk back there you'll see many rectangular spots... if you find one you like, then save the coordinates and send that request to Storm
Eliza Madrigal: (to Fox)
stevenaia Michinaga: I had someone who knew what they were doing find me a plot :)
Eliza Madrigal: me too...haha
doug Sosa: wow, slow to post.
Eos Amaterasu: When you look at the top of the Sl window, you'll see the coordinates where your are, plus whether that plot is assigned to anyone already
Fox Monacular: I need such a person too
Eliza Madrigal: Alternatively.... make a box... and set it on the spot
Eliza Madrigal: Storm can see who made it
Eliza Madrigal: and then tell him you made a box :)
Fox Monacular: I should not miss my chance to build a hut in a PaB village
Eliza Madrigal: yes exactly :)
stevenaia Michinaga: be sure to wear your guardian group when you do that
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, true
Fox Monacular: ok thanks for the tips:)
Fox Monacular: i'll definitely wander off there after the meeting!
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Doug and Felix the Cat play as Being

Eos Amaterasu: Anyone have a topic or slant on PaB?
doug Sosa: today i met the head of it at drexel, first time, in sl. his avatar
Fox Monacular: this is like a co-op meeting for new condos
Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
doug Sosa: was felix the cat.
Eliza Madrigal: I will not complain if someone paints their house yellow
Eliza Madrigal: :) or has a dog
Fox Monacular: or is a dog
Eliza Madrigal: or tigers... bears...
doug Sosa: in minutes we were boh serious and goofy.
Eliza Madrigal: yes exactly
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Eos Amaterasu: So the SL play automatically brings in PaB play?

Pila walks on water

Fox Monacular: Hi Pila
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila :)
Pila Mulligan: oops
Eos Amaterasu watches Pila walk on water
doug Sosa: i think so
Eliza Madrigal is amazed
Eliza Madrigal: he can walk without splashing
Pila Mulligan: *in* water :)
Eos Amaterasu: and stayed vertical throughout
doug Sosa: actually splashing is harder
Fox Monacular: splashing is a lot of work
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Eliza Madrigal: not wu-wei then
Eliza Madrigal: or would that be splashing without splashing?
doug Sosa: well, you dont do it. just wu
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Fox Monacular: would there be splashing if no tree is there to hear it?
Eliza Madrigal seriously ponders
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: Ah, a street name: Wu Way
Eliza Madrigal: OOOh you figured it out!
Pila Mulligan: want to try playing with these pose balls?
Pila Mulligan: maybe
Eliza Madrigal: Eos... so funny... we were talking about addresses for the village a few minutes ago
Eliza Madrigal: I love that one :)

Tai Chi moving illusions within illusions

Fox Monacular: how do you use these things?
Fox Monacular: hahahaha
Eliza Madrigal: I'll tai chi in the plant....
Fox Monacular: im stuck in the column!
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, they are all coordinated too
Eos Amaterasu sees av's doing tai chi
doug Sosa: ??
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, you can tai chi through solid SL objects
stevenaia Michinaga: solid
Eos Amaterasu: very advanced
Eliza Madrigal: illusions iwthin illusions
Pila Mulligan: yep, but fun
Fox Monacular: don't be jealous, it's only because i'm wearing a spirit avatar

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: 90 secs while moving
stevenaia Michinaga: walking meditation
Fox Monacular: walking meditation
Fox Monacular: :)
Pila Mulligan: finis
stevenaia Michinaga: nice
Pila Mulligan: it is nice
Fox Monacular: how do I stop it?
Pila Mulligan: stand up Fox
stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, I have thigns to finish before the day
Fox Monacular: oh, ok thanks
Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
Fox Monacular: bye Steve

More village design

Pila Mulligan: Storm said thse could be put in a communal place if there was an agreement of the neighbors
Pila Mulligan: close
Pila Mulligan: I do it a little faster, but I should do it slower :)
Fox Monacular: you do a lot of tai chi Pila?
Eliza Madrigal: The recorder said it was off for me...
Eliza Madrigal: hopefully won't affect the text
Eliza Madrigal: Is the pace correct? The animations are very elegant?
Pila Mulligan: maybe everyone was out of range for the recorder
Eliza Madrigal: Ah...yes you heard me before
Pila Mulligan: it seems well done Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pila Mulligan: yes Fox
Pila Mulligan: daily
Pila Mulligan: since 1975
Eos Amaterasu: wow
Fox Monacular: cool, I've always wanted to try, but can't bring myself to start
Fox Monacular: still looking for a 'perfect teacher'

self-starting, self-teaching

Pila Mulligan: well, without starting you may never do it :)
Fox Monacular: yes, I know....
Pila Mulligan: teachers are important though
Eliza Madrigal: Once in a while I'll come across a group in a park... that's always nice
Pila Mulligan: yes
Eliza Madrigal: One day I'll jump in :)
Fox Monacular: I think too much and do too little
Pila Mulligan: if it is just poeple doing it they probably would not mind if you joined
Pila Mulligan: it is largely self-teaching

Limits of Control

Fox Monacular: have you seen Limits of control Pila?
Eos Amaterasu: That's interesting - it's like a little pause, seeing a group doing Tai Chi, in a city, in a village
Pila Mulligan: so if you imitate them for a while you can get a lot of it
Pila Mulligan: ")
Pila Mulligan: no Fox, what is it?
Fox Monacular: it's the latest film of Jim Jarmusch, the main character there talks little, but does tai chi all the time
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Fox, funny that you say such a thing (think too much/do too little) when you have a young child, work, and school : ) Sometimes we don't see what we're up to...heh
Fox Monacular: I think it's a lot about the same thing that play as being is about
Eliza Madrigal listens
Fox Monacular: yeah, Eliza, I went to the lab today... and read blogs there... just because I was enjoying the fact that I was alone:)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fox Monacular: you should see the film, it's long and boring, and strange
Eliza Madrigal takes a note
Fox Monacular: I think it's about interconnectedness and authenticity
Eliza Madrigal enjoys odd movies
Fox Monacular: vs/ corporateness and globalization
Fox Monacular: I really liked it, but I like anything that Jarmush makes so it makes me a little biased
Pila Mulligan: ah good vs evil :)

Pila Mulligan: even with the best of intentions most big multinational corporations seem to somehow miss the tone of nature

Fox Monacular: yes, very much so! but it's about really deep things... nonverbal. Most of the dialogue in the film is found in the 3 minute trailer
Pila Mulligan: brief script then
Fox Monacular: imagine a classic American action thriller... and then show stuff that is normally left out of such movies
Eliza Madrigal: Oh My
Fox Monacular: such as 5 minute sequence of the main character just staring out of the train window
Eliza Madrigal: Ah... yes, nice
Fox Monacular: or goes sightseeing in a city he was sent to, and buys a postcard or something like that
Pila Mulligan is watching the trailer :)
Eos Amaterasu: that sort of thing, scene, can produce a real effect in the viewer
Fox Monacular: and then you cut all the action out
Eos Amaterasu: not just something happening on screen
Eliza Madrigal: marvelous... sounds right up my alley
Fox Monacular: and jump straight to the consequences of the actions you never saw!
Fox Monacular: :)
Eliza Madrigal: The last film I watched (for the second time) was Lost in Translation...
Eliza Madrigal: that film has similar moments...
Fox Monacular: yes, I remember
Eliza Madrigal: close shot on Bill Murray's face... just nada
Eliza Madrigal: but so moving
Eos Amaterasu: Yes
Pila Mulligan: looks like Bill Murry plays a bad guy
Fox Monacular: in Limits of Control there is Bill Murray too
Fox Monacular: yes
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh really? coincidence :)
Pila Mulligan: he is not the type usually
Pila Mulligan: :)

--BELL--

Fox Monacular: Ok, I just got it: limits of control is the film about co-dependent origination and karma
Eliza Madrigal: :) Eos, you gave us a link to a Varela book a long time ago, and the view of ethics being 'way of being' rather than ideology is so nice... I suppose that is what the director was showing?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh?
Eliza Madrigal runs to trailer
Fox Monacular: trailer is highly misleading:)
Fox Monacular: all the action in the movie is in the trailer
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, and this is a new film
Fox Monacular: yes, just came out this year
Pila Mulligan: I'm going for a few mintes (to play with the pose balls ...) will try to be back soon
Eos Amaterasu quotes from the trailer: "no guns, no sex, how can you stand it?"
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now Pila... will sign off soon... so will say goodnight :)
Fox Monacular: he's doing tai chi:)
Fox Monacular: I mean the character
Eliza Madrigal grins
Eliza Madrigal: we're all interwoven tonight
Fox Monacular: yes, we're all interwoven, you just mentioned Varela, I was just reading his book today
Eliza Madrigal: I will definitely try to see this
Eliza Madrigal smiles

Autopoiesis

Eliza Madrigal: I saved the link Eos gave and just tonight actually opened it again
Eliza Madrigal: and thought "Okay, time to read this" so will order the book soon...
Fox Monacular: what is the link to?
Eos Amaterasu: 
Eos Amaterasu: Varela's Ethical Know-How: action, wisdom, and cognition
Eos Amaterasu: Very short, very dense book
Fox Monacular: I don't have this one
Fox Monacular: but I'm a big fan
Fox Monacular: ever since I was given autopoiesis and cognition
Eos Amaterasu: talks about ethics not as doing according to some rules, but as being
Eliza Madrigal: yes, that resonates strongly with me now... months ago I think I would have read it less attentively...
Fox Monacular: in autopoiesis and cognition Maturana and Varela basically end the book by saying that the driving force for a society is love
Eliza Madrigal: Fox, is that the title of the book?
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes...okay
Fox Monacular: Autopoiesis and Cognition
Fox Monacular: it's out of print, unfortunately, so it is sold for astronomical prices
Eos Amaterasu: "the force that through the green fuse drives the flower" (Dylan Thomas)
Fox Monacular: but (off the record) I have a pdf.......
Eliza Madrigal nods.... that does seem true... that we could go about engineering all kinds of change... but the only thing that "really" changes anything is real love...born of wisdom, as I heard it put the other day
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Eliza Madrigal: Hmmm
Eliza Madrigal: WB Pila :)
Pila Mulligan: thanks
Pila Mulligan: does anyone know how to unlink objects?
Eos Amaterasu: The Tree of Knowledge is a fabulous book
Fox Monacular: Autopoiesis and Cognition at Google Books
Fox Monacular: yes, I've read this one
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, thank you :)
Eliza Madrigal: Pila... I'm so not techi with these things
Eliza Madrigal: what do you mean unlink?
Eos Amaterasu: Cool, preface by Stafford Beer - he was an amazing person
Fox Monacular: there is also The Embodied Mind that Varela wrote with Rosch and Thompson
Fox Monacular: yes, the preface is almost as good as the book
Pila Mulligan: not sure what it means Eliza :)
Eos Amaterasu: select-all and unlink?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Ohhh...or in edit...
Eliza Madrigal: there may be a little box
Pila Mulligan: off, to try -- might Google, excuse me :)
Eliza Madrigal: build-object...etc
Eliza Madrigal: Hope he figures it out
Eos Amaterasu: "builder's fever" :-)
Eliza Madrigal: I ruined a perfectly nice tea house like that I think
Fox Monacular: I don't know what he was talkinf about
Eliza Madrigal: I wanted to make the roof smaller....
Eliza Madrigal: so I removed it from the rest of the structure...
Eos Amaterasu: unlinking objects that you've linked together (SL)
Eliza Madrigal: but then couldn't line it up well
Eliza Madrigal: If poseballs, there shouldn't be that issue
Eliza Madrigal: Plus, Storm is so helpful

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: is being autopoietic?
Fox Monacular: maybe autopoiesis is a way to realize being
Eos Amaterasu: Fox, does autopoiesis give you vocabulary for the 90 secs, for example?
Fox Monacular: I think so, yes, although it is more conceptual than phenomenological I guess
Eos Amaterasu: I was wondering about the tie-in to experience, yes
Fox Monacular: I like the way Varela talks about "realization of living" or "bringing forth the world"
Fox Monacular: it's very poetic (and poietic)
Eos Amaterasu: appreciating being in suspension plays with who's bringing forth whom, or what
Fox Monacular: it seems intuitively right
Eos Amaterasu: plays with that subject/object "structural coupling"
Eos Amaterasu: (sexy term)
Fox Monacular: yes, structural coupling with computer to bring forth second life world
Eliza Madrigal is really "excited" to read these books now
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Fox Monacular: and realize my avatar autopoietically
Fox Monacular: the question is - is a virtual world autopoietic?
Eos Amaterasu: Indeed, SL allows autopoiesis of our identity/SL embodiment/world
Fox Monacular: or it requires 'allopoietic' machines?
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Fox Monacular: disembodied re-embodiment
Fox Monacular: like in dreams
Eliza Madrigal: Hmm
Eos Amaterasu: Sir Stafford Beer had really interesting experimentation in Chile re having work, factories, self-organize via new comm media
Fox Monacular: interesting, I didn't know about that
Eos Amaterasu: How do you get the PaB approach into the guts of corporations, companies?
Fox Monacular: ouch, I never thought of that one
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm about to sign off...but shall we walk to the village first ? Such a neat evening
Eos Amaterasu: (Eliza, Stafford Beer was an inspiration for the group of us working on Community Memory in the early seventies :-)
Fox Monacular: I'm sorry to interrupt such an interesting conversation, but it's been over an hour that my baby's been sleeping
Fox Monacular: and she wakes us really early, I'd better join her
Eliza Madrigal: Ahhh I see Eos
Eos Amaterasu: :-) very sweet

Back to the village

Eliza Madrigal: Fox, make sure to check the village...
Fox Monacular: yes, Eliza, let's see the village!
Eliza Madrigal: but yes understandable... need to rest :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Paradise, bye Fox
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Paradise... sorry to run.... love the puppy :)
Paradise Tennant: good nite fox
Fox Monacular: I'm following you Eliza
Paradise Tennant: good nite eliza
Eos Amaterasu: Bye Eliza
Paradise Tennant: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Night Eos, Paradise :)
Fox Monacular: good night Paradise, good night Eos
Paradise Tennant: well looks like I am pretty late :)
Paradise Tennant: how have you been eos :)
Eos Amaterasu: Ah, you have a dog!
Eos Amaterasu: Pretty good
Paradise Tennant: yes realized he was buried in the concrete poor thing :)
Eos Amaterasu: I'll have to leave at the next bell
Paradise Tennant: ahh kk
Eos Amaterasu: Latish here (late-ish)
Paradise Tennant: what was the focus tonight
Paradise Tennant: yes
Paradise Tennant: here too
Paradise Tennant: 11 pm +
Eos Amaterasu: village -> autopoiesis
Paradise Tennant: sorrry autopoiesis ?
Eos Amaterasu: mutual co-emergence of me and my world
Pila Mulligan: oops
Paradise Tennant: hiya pila
Pila Mulligan: I'm very soorry
Paradise Tennant: hmm cool
Pila Mulligan: didn't mean to bmp you
Eos Amaterasu: Pila was searching for a solution to how to unlink things
Pila Mulligan: foundit too
Eos Amaterasu: negative inter-connectedness
Paradise Tennant: no worries not even a virtual bruise
Pila Mulligan: i got the pose balls set up
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Pila Mulligan: :)
Paradise Tennant: how?
Pila Mulligan: I think they will works simulataneously now

--BELL--

Pila Mulligan: wold you like to try them and see if they work okay? (followed by an implied please, as Pila is curious:)
Paradise Tennant: sure
Pila Mulligan: we can chat there too