2009.09.15 19:00 - Autopoietic Village

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

    We play off the new village experience

    Eliza Madrigal: Howdy neighbor
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi nearby denizen :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice to walk here
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I liked that too
    Eos Amaterasu wonders what denizen means
    Eliza Madrigal: :) hahah
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Stevenaia, I also walked :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: This will be much healthier for us!
    stevenaia Michinaga: lovely chronical interview Eos
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm really enjoying it so far... walking over to say hello
    Eos Amaterasu: thnx - I've started looking at those now - really interesting!
    Eliza Madrigal: and hahah about being healthier
    stevenaia Michinaga: cough
    Eos Amaterasu: Yours, Eliza, for example!
    Fox Monacular: Hi everyone
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Cultivator
    stevenaia Michinaga: I walked to fast, out of breath
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fox! :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello fox
    Eos Amaterasu: We could have races to here
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Eos Amaterasu: 9 secs max!
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: It is funny... I went back to a few interviews too... Wol's yesterday in fact...
    Eliza Madrigal: nice snapshots
    Eliza Madrigal: We all seem to be adventurers :)
    Eos Amaterasu: And now we're settling down in the village :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Fox, have you had a chance to wander the village area?
    Fox Monacular: no, I just read about it all today
    Eliza Madrigal: I know you're busy... hope all is well
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Doug
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi doug
    Fox Monacular: I'd really like to check it out
    Fox Monacular: Hello Doug
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Doug
    Fox Monacular: where is the village?


    doug Sosa: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Isn't the pause long when you want to answer a question? heh
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Fox, the village is behind us....
    stevenaia Michinaga: you teaching at Drexel in Philly? my intern goes there
    Eliza Madrigal: walk right back there and you are in it :)
    Fox Monacular: cool!
    Eliza Madrigal: :D
    Fox Monacular: so people will be building their places there?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... building has begun
    Eliza Madrigal: Did you get the email with directions and such, for Storm?
    doug Sosa: :0 now there is the challenge.
    Fox Monacular: yes, I didn't really have a chance to read them carefully... and I don't really understand SL lingo too well yet :)
    doug Sosa: no, we have a sl project there, from stanford.
    Eliza Madrigal: :) understandable. When you walk back there you'll see many rectangular spots... if you find one you like, then save the coordinates and send that request to Storm
    Eliza Madrigal: (to Fox)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I had someone who knew what they were doing find me a plot :)
    Eliza Madrigal: me too...haha
    doug Sosa: wow, slow to post.
    Eos Amaterasu: When you look at the top of the Sl window, you'll see the coordinates where your are, plus whether that plot is assigned to anyone already
    Fox Monacular: I need such a person too
    Eliza Madrigal: Alternatively.... make a box... and set it on the spot
    Eliza Madrigal: Storm can see who made it
    Eliza Madrigal: and then tell him you made a box :)
    Fox Monacular: I should not miss my chance to build a hut in a PaB village
    Eliza Madrigal: yes exactly :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: be sure to wear your guardian group when you do that
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, true
    Fox Monacular: ok thanks for the tips:)
    Fox Monacular: i'll definitely wander off there after the meeting!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Doug and Felix the Cat play as Being

    Eos Amaterasu: Anyone have a topic or slant on PaB?
    doug Sosa: today i met the head of it at drexel, first time, in sl. his avatar
    Fox Monacular: this is like a co-op meeting for new condos
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
    doug Sosa: was felix the cat.
    Eliza Madrigal: I will not complain if someone paints their house yellow
    Eliza Madrigal: :) or has a dog
    Fox Monacular: or is a dog
    Eliza Madrigal: or tigers... bears...
    doug Sosa: in minutes we were boh serious and goofy.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes exactly
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Eos Amaterasu: So the SL play automatically brings in PaB play?

    Pila walks on water

    Fox Monacular: Hi Pila
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: oops
    Eos Amaterasu watches Pila walk on water
    doug Sosa: i think so
    Eliza Madrigal is amazed
    Eliza Madrigal: he can walk without splashing
    Pila Mulligan: *in* water :)
    Eos Amaterasu: and stayed vertical throughout
    doug Sosa: actually splashing is harder
    Fox Monacular: splashing is a lot of work
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Eliza Madrigal: not wu-wei then
    Eliza Madrigal: or would that be splashing without splashing?
    doug Sosa: well, you dont do it. just wu
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Fox Monacular: would there be splashing if no tree is there to hear it?
    Eliza Madrigal seriously ponders
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Ah, a street name: Wu Way
    Eliza Madrigal: OOOh you figured it out!
    Pila Mulligan: want to try playing with these pose balls?
    Pila Mulligan: maybe
    Eliza Madrigal: Eos... so funny... we were talking about addresses for the village a few minutes ago
    Eliza Madrigal: I love that one :)

    Tai Chi moving illusions within illusions

    Fox Monacular: how do you use these things?
    Fox Monacular: hahahaha
    Eliza Madrigal: I'll tai chi in the plant....
    Fox Monacular: im stuck in the column!
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, they are all coordinated too
    Eos Amaterasu sees av's doing tai chi
    doug Sosa: ??
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, you can tai chi through solid SL objects
    stevenaia Michinaga: solid
    Eos Amaterasu: very advanced
    Eliza Madrigal: illusions iwthin illusions
    Pila Mulligan: yep, but fun
    Fox Monacular: don't be jealous, it's only because i'm wearing a spirit avatar


    Eos Amaterasu: 90 secs while moving
    stevenaia Michinaga: walking meditation
    Fox Monacular: walking meditation
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Pila Mulligan: finis
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice
    Pila Mulligan: it is nice
    Fox Monacular: how do I stop it?
    Pila Mulligan: stand up Fox
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, I have thigns to finish before the day
    Fox Monacular: oh, ok thanks
    Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
    Fox Monacular: bye Steve

    More village design

    Pila Mulligan: Storm said thse could be put in a communal place if there was an agreement of the neighbors
    Pila Mulligan: close
    Pila Mulligan: I do it a little faster, but I should do it slower :)
    Fox Monacular: you do a lot of tai chi Pila?
    Eliza Madrigal: The recorder said it was off for me...
    Eliza Madrigal: hopefully won't affect the text
    Eliza Madrigal: Is the pace correct? The animations are very elegant?
    Pila Mulligan: maybe everyone was out of range for the recorder
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah...yes you heard me before
    Pila Mulligan: it seems well done Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: yes Fox
    Pila Mulligan: daily
    Pila Mulligan: since 1975
    Eos Amaterasu: wow
    Fox Monacular: cool, I've always wanted to try, but can't bring myself to start
    Fox Monacular: still looking for a 'perfect teacher'

    self-starting, self-teaching

    Pila Mulligan: well, without starting you may never do it :)
    Fox Monacular: yes, I know....
    Pila Mulligan: teachers are important though
    Eliza Madrigal: Once in a while I'll come across a group in a park... that's always nice
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: One day I'll jump in :)
    Fox Monacular: I think too much and do too little
    Pila Mulligan: if it is just poeple doing it they probably would not mind if you joined
    Pila Mulligan: it is largely self-teaching

    Limits of Control

    Fox Monacular: have you seen Limits of control Pila?
    Eos Amaterasu: That's interesting - it's like a little pause, seeing a group doing Tai Chi, in a city, in a village
    Pila Mulligan: so if you imitate them for a while you can get a lot of it
    Pila Mulligan: ")
    Pila Mulligan: no Fox, what is it?
    Fox Monacular: it's the latest film of Jim Jarmusch, the main character there talks little, but does tai chi all the time
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Fox, funny that you say such a thing (think too much/do too little) when you have a young child, work, and school : ) Sometimes we don't see what we're up to...heh
    Fox Monacular: I think it's a lot about the same thing that play as being is about
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Fox Monacular: yeah, Eliza, I went to the lab today... and read blogs there... just because I was enjoying the fact that I was alone:)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Fox Monacular: you should see the film, it's long and boring, and strange
    Eliza Madrigal takes a note
    Fox Monacular: I think it's about interconnectedness and authenticity
    Eliza Madrigal enjoys odd movies
    Fox Monacular: vs/ corporateness and globalization
    Fox Monacular: I really liked it, but I like anything that Jarmush makes so it makes me a little biased
    Pila Mulligan: ah good vs evil :)

    Pila Mulligan: even with the best of intentions most big multinational corporations seem to somehow miss the tone of nature


    Fox Monacular: yes, very much so! but it's about really deep things... nonverbal. Most of the dialogue in the film is found in the 3 minute trailer
    Pila Mulligan: brief script then
    Fox Monacular: imagine a classic American action thriller... and then show stuff that is normally left out of such movies
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh My
    Fox Monacular: such as 5 minute sequence of the main character just staring out of the train window
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah... yes, nice
    Fox Monacular: or goes sightseeing in a city he was sent to, and buys a postcard or something like that
    Pila Mulligan is watching the trailer :)
    Eos Amaterasu: that sort of thing, scene, can produce a real effect in the viewer
    Fox Monacular: and then you cut all the action out
    Eos Amaterasu: not just something happening on screen
    Eliza Madrigal: marvelous... sounds right up my alley
    Fox Monacular: and jump straight to the consequences of the actions you never saw!
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: The last film I watched (for the second time) was Lost in Translation...
    Eliza Madrigal: that film has similar moments...
    Fox Monacular: yes, I remember
    Eliza Madrigal: close shot on Bill Murray's face... just nada
    Eliza Madrigal: but so moving
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes
    Pila Mulligan: looks like Bill Murry plays a bad guy
    Fox Monacular: in Limits of Control there is Bill Murray too
    Fox Monacular: yes
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh really? coincidence :)
    Pila Mulligan: he is not the type usually
    Pila Mulligan: :)


    Fox Monacular: Ok, I just got it: limits of control is the film about co-dependent origination and karma
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Eos, you gave us a link to a Varela book a long time ago, and the view of ethics being 'way of being' rather than ideology is so nice... I suppose that is what the director was showing?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh?
    Eliza Madrigal runs to trailer
    Fox Monacular: trailer is highly misleading:)
    Fox Monacular: all the action in the movie is in the trailer
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, and this is a new film
    Fox Monacular: yes, just came out this year
    Pila Mulligan: I'm going for a few mintes (to play with the pose balls ...) will try to be back soon
    Eos Amaterasu quotes from the trailer: "no guns, no sex, how can you stand it?"
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now Pila... will sign off soon... so will say goodnight :)
    Fox Monacular: he's doing tai chi:)
    Fox Monacular: I mean the character
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Eliza Madrigal: we're all interwoven tonight
    Fox Monacular: yes, we're all interwoven, you just mentioned Varela, I was just reading his book today
    Eliza Madrigal: I will definitely try to see this
    Eliza Madrigal smiles


    Eliza Madrigal: I saved the link Eos gave and just tonight actually opened it again
    Eliza Madrigal: and thought "Okay, time to read this" so will order the book soon...
    Fox Monacular: what is the link to?
    Eos Amaterasu: 
    Eos Amaterasu: Varela's Ethical Know-How: action, wisdom, and cognition
    Eos Amaterasu: Very short, very dense book
    Fox Monacular: I don't have this one
    Fox Monacular: but I'm a big fan
    Fox Monacular: ever since I was given autopoiesis and cognition
    Eos Amaterasu: talks about ethics not as doing according to some rules, but as being
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, that resonates strongly with me now... months ago I think I would have read it less attentively...
    Fox Monacular: in autopoiesis and cognition Maturana and Varela basically end the book by saying that the driving force for a society is love
    Eliza Madrigal: Fox, is that the title of the book?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes...okay
    Fox Monacular: Autopoiesis and Cognition
    Fox Monacular: it's out of print, unfortunately, so it is sold for astronomical prices
    Eos Amaterasu: "the force that through the green fuse drives the flower" (Dylan Thomas)
    Fox Monacular: but (off the record) I have a pdf.......
    Eliza Madrigal nods.... that does seem true... that we could go about engineering all kinds of change... but the only thing that "really" changes anything is real love...born of wisdom, as I heard it put the other day
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmmm
    Eliza Madrigal: WB Pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: thanks
    Pila Mulligan: does anyone know how to unlink objects?
    Eos Amaterasu: The Tree of Knowledge is a fabulous book
    Fox Monacular: Autopoiesis and Cognition at Google Books
    Fox Monacular: yes, I've read this one
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, thank you :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Pila... I'm so not techi with these things
    Eliza Madrigal: what do you mean unlink?
    Eos Amaterasu: Cool, preface by Stafford Beer - he was an amazing person
    Fox Monacular: there is also The Embodied Mind that Varela wrote with Rosch and Thompson
    Fox Monacular: yes, the preface is almost as good as the book
    Pila Mulligan: not sure what it means Eliza :)
    Eos Amaterasu: select-all and unlink?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ohhh...or in edit...
    Eliza Madrigal: there may be a little box
    Pila Mulligan: off, to try -- might Google, excuse me :)
    Eliza Madrigal: build-object...etc
    Eliza Madrigal: Hope he figures it out
    Eos Amaterasu: "builder's fever" :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: I ruined a perfectly nice tea house like that I think
    Fox Monacular: I don't know what he was talkinf about
    Eliza Madrigal: I wanted to make the roof smaller....
    Eliza Madrigal: so I removed it from the rest of the structure...
    Eos Amaterasu: unlinking objects that you've linked together (SL)
    Eliza Madrigal: but then couldn't line it up well
    Eliza Madrigal: If poseballs, there shouldn't be that issue
    Eliza Madrigal: Plus, Storm is so helpful


    Eos Amaterasu: is being autopoietic?
    Fox Monacular: maybe autopoiesis is a way to realize being
    Eos Amaterasu: Fox, does autopoiesis give you vocabulary for the 90 secs, for example?
    Fox Monacular: I think so, yes, although it is more conceptual than phenomenological I guess
    Eos Amaterasu: I was wondering about the tie-in to experience, yes
    Fox Monacular: I like the way Varela talks about "realization of living" or "bringing forth the world"
    Fox Monacular: it's very poetic (and poietic)
    Eos Amaterasu: appreciating being in suspension plays with who's bringing forth whom, or what
    Fox Monacular: it seems intuitively right
    Eos Amaterasu: plays with that subject/object "structural coupling"
    Eos Amaterasu: (sexy term)
    Fox Monacular: yes, structural coupling with computer to bring forth second life world
    Eliza Madrigal is really "excited" to read these books now
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Fox Monacular: and realize my avatar autopoietically
    Fox Monacular: the question is - is a virtual world autopoietic?
    Eos Amaterasu: Indeed, SL allows autopoiesis of our identity/SL embodiment/world
    Fox Monacular: or it requires 'allopoietic' machines?
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Fox Monacular: disembodied re-embodiment
    Fox Monacular: like in dreams
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmm
    Eos Amaterasu: Sir Stafford Beer had really interesting experimentation in Chile re having work, factories, self-organize via new comm media
    Fox Monacular: interesting, I didn't know about that
    Eos Amaterasu: How do you get the PaB approach into the guts of corporations, companies?
    Fox Monacular: ouch, I never thought of that one
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm about to sign off...but shall we walk to the village first ? Such a neat evening
    Eos Amaterasu: (Eliza, Stafford Beer was an inspiration for the group of us working on Community Memory in the early seventies :-)
    Fox Monacular: I'm sorry to interrupt such an interesting conversation, but it's been over an hour that my baby's been sleeping
    Fox Monacular: and she wakes us really early, I'd better join her
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhh I see Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: :-) very sweet

    Back to the village


    Eliza Madrigal: Fox, make sure to check the village...
    Fox Monacular: yes, Eliza, let's see the village!
    Eliza Madrigal: but yes understandable... need to rest :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Paradise, bye Fox
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Paradise... sorry to run.... love the puppy :)
    Paradise Tennant: good nite fox
    Fox Monacular: I'm following you Eliza
    Paradise Tennant: good nite eliza
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye Eliza
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Eos, Paradise :)
    Fox Monacular: good night Paradise, good night Eos
    Paradise Tennant: well looks like I am pretty late :)
    Paradise Tennant: how have you been eos :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Ah, you have a dog!
    Eos Amaterasu: Pretty good
    Paradise Tennant: yes realized he was buried in the concrete poor thing :)
    Eos Amaterasu: I'll have to leave at the next bell
    Paradise Tennant: ahh kk
    Eos Amaterasu: Latish here (late-ish)
    Paradise Tennant: what was the focus tonight
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: here too
    Paradise Tennant: 11 pm +
    Eos Amaterasu: village -> autopoiesis
    Paradise Tennant: sorrry autopoiesis ?
    Eos Amaterasu: mutual co-emergence of me and my world
    Pila Mulligan: oops
    Paradise Tennant: hiya pila
    Pila Mulligan: I'm very soorry
    Paradise Tennant: hmm cool
    Pila Mulligan: didn't mean to bmp you
    Eos Amaterasu: Pila was searching for a solution to how to unlink things
    Pila Mulligan: foundit too
    Eos Amaterasu: negative inter-connectedness
    Paradise Tennant: no worries not even a virtual bruise
    Pila Mulligan: i got the pose balls set up
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: how?
    Pila Mulligan: I think they will works simulataneously now


    Pila Mulligan: wold you like to try them and see if they work okay? (followed by an implied please, as Pila is curious:)
    Paradise Tennant: sure
    Pila Mulligan: we can chat there too
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