2009.09.18 13:00 - flow and no-self

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    Lia Rikugun: hello yakuzza hello doug
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey doug, lia
    Lia Rikugun: how are you both?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: can´t get rid of my cold, but i am fine otherwise
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so doug what are you trying people to do with ur project ?
    Lia Rikugun: sorry to hear yakuzza i hope you are feeling better soon
    Yakuzza Lethecus: just getting people to talk about aspects of the future and the rest is supposed to develop out of themselves ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s fine lia, it´s just annoying :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey wol
    Wol Euler: hello invisible people
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hope you´re not stressed from work anymore ?
    Lia Rikugun: hello wol ;)
    Wol Euler: hello doug, lia, yakuzza
    Wol Euler: well, it's better than yesterday
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and you got a good feeling ?
    Wol Euler smiles and shrugs.
    Wol Euler: it'll do.
    doug Sosa: what?
    Wol Euler: work, life, that kind of thing.
    doug Sosa: if you takework from life, what is left?
    Wol Euler: oh, I don't want to get rid of it entirely, it would be nice to have some time off and a few free evenings and weekends, taht's all.
    doug Sosa: yep,
    Wol Euler: how is everyone?
    Lia Rikugun: good thank you :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: can´t get rid of my cold, but i am fine otherwise :)
    doug Sosa: good. lots of details flying around.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey gaya
    Lia Rikugun: hello gaya
    Wol Euler: hello gayabunny
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
    doug Sosa: :)
    Lia Rikugun: wow you are cute
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks :)
    Lia Rikugun: what would you like to talk about?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Please suggest one Lia?
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)


    The 'each moment is the universe' book and I was always wondering while reading the book how these no-self no-time moments can be defined or found..

    Lia Rikugun: i am reading a book called 'each moment is the universe'
    Lia Rikugun: about zen buddhism
    Lia Rikugun: it also talks about the no-time and no-self
    Lia Rikugun: i am trying to look for these no-time no-self moments
    Lia Rikugun: where I just do things
    doug Sosa: there is only one and it is the universe :)
    Lia Rikugun: not realizing any I and time
    Wol Euler: are you familiar with the idea of "flow", Lia? That sounds pretty similar
    Lia Rikugun: but it is funny, as soon as I recognize this as a no-self no-time moent, it is no one anymore
    Lia Rikugun: because i start thinking about this moment
    Lia Rikugun: wol i have heard from 'flow' but please tell me more
    Wol Euler: well, it's a state very much like what you described, of total concentration and immersion and disappearing into whta you are doing
    Wol Euler: the moments when you are so concentrated in your work (or whatever) that "you" disappear and the whatever just happens
    Lia Rikugun: exactly :)
    Lia Rikugun: so i am trying to collect these moments
    Wol Euler nods and smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Lia Rikugun: and i thought it is funny that it gets lost so fast as soon as you start "thinking about it"
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Lia Rikugun: hello Qt
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Qt :)
    Qt Core: Hi all
    Wol Euler: like the way that it is impossible to find happiness by actively searching for happiness
    Wol Euler: hello qt
    Lia Rikugun: :) yes wol


    time workshop wednesdays at 11am: most probably we will read the Time Space Knowledge book

    Lia Rikugun: (by the way, I dont know if you know but during the time workshop wednesdays at 11am we want to read the time space knowledge book, maybe concentrate more on the time aprt if you are interested..)
    Lia Rikugun: in kira cafe
    Wol Euler: whihc day is that?
    Lia Rikugun: Qt we are talking about no-time no-self moments
    Lia Rikugun: every wednesday at 11am in the kira cafe
    Lia Rikugun: or how wol called it 'flow'
    Wol Euler: hello shyama
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Shyama :)
    Lia Rikugun: hello shyama
    Qt Core: hi Shyama
    Lia Rikugun: shyama we were just talking about moments where you loose any idea of your self and any idea of time when you are so into doing what you do
    Shyama Sheryffe: nods
    Shyama Sheryffe: i know the feeling


    Qt tells us abut his experiences of no-self no-time moments, mostly they come during reading a book

    Qt Core: ohh, i love that, it is a pity it is so difficoult to reach in last years due to too many interructions by colleague
    Qt Core: s
    Lia Rikugun: i have the impression we have this every day no?
    Qt Core: but i reach it often while reading
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
    Lia Rikugun: how would you define such moments Qt?
    Wol Euler: hello mick
    Shyama Sheryffe: hi Mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hi all
    Lia Rikugun: hello mick
    Qt Core: like time stop and i reach a full quiet place, where all the inforrmation i need are just at arm length and ideas appera, even if multiple clear and not mixed
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Lia Rikugun: :) this sounds great
    Qt Core: when there you really have to hit me phisically to gain my attention
    Wol Euler chuckles
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Qt Core: same with book, both fiction and not fiction, i remember the first time it happened, i was ten and i was reading Ben Hur
    Wol Euler: :)
    Lia Rikugun: hello arabella
    Wol Euler: hello ara
    arabella Ella: Hiya!
    Shyama Sheryffe: hi Arabella
    Qt Core: but then, when the book is fiction i end in the book universe not in my worpspace ;-)
    Qt Core: workspace
    Qt Core: hi ara
    Lia Rikugun: and you completely forget everything around you? :)
    Qt Core: forget is aven weak, the rest of the universe is just not there
    Qt Core: even
    Lia Rikugun: i think this is very interesting because you can change realities so quickly reading a book
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello arabella :)
    Qt Core: i stop moving my legs, if seated, and i don't feel backaches if i'm reading in bed
    Qt Core: ops
    Qt Core: the back aches thing is when i lose myself reading in bed and "awake" more than 4 hour after ;-)
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: this is also what happens to me when I go to my "happy place"
    Mickorod Renard: nice if you can get lost in a book


    the difference between flow and immersion? and a book called "Flow" by Csikszentmihalyi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihaly_Csikszentmihalyihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

    (and what a difficult name to write.. ;)

    Gaya Ethaniel: What is the difference between flow and immersion?
    Lia Rikugun: i forget everything around
    Lia Rikugun: ;)
    Lia Rikugun: hm flow and immersion?
    Wol Euler: mmm, not sure there necessarily is one...
    Lia Rikugun: flow is maybe less"I" just doing
    Lia Rikugun: ??
    Lia Rikugun: but obviously i dont know
    arabella Ella: there is a very good book on Flow
    arabella Ella: it involves motivation to do somthing you really love doing
    Lia Rikugun: what is the title arabella please?
    Qt Core: sometimes i'm not completly detached from reality but i see/hear/feel what happen but i see even my mind judging those stimuli as unimportand and not reacting to them
    arabella Ella: Flow
    Lia Rikugun: just flow :) ok thank you
    arabella Ella: Title is Flow
    Lia Rikugun: i think this is very important to realize basically what is your true self
    arabella Ella: I know exactly what you mean Qt and how bad it feels if the phone rings for example on occasions like that ... a horrible disturbance taking u away from what you want to do and take pleasure in doing
    Lia Rikugun: and then everything you do is very easy like floating
    Wol Euler: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_2_9?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=csikszentmihalyi+flow&sprefix=csikszent
    arabella Ella: :)
    Wol Euler: Csikszentmihalyi is the guru and inventor of Flow :)
    Lia Rikugun: thank you wol
    Qt Core: a flow of consonant more than anything ;-)
    Wol Euler: popularizer, one might rather say
    arabella Ella: yes i met him at a conference a couple of years ago
    Mickorod Renard: I am a person that does get into concentrating alot,,I am oblivious to whats happening around me
    arabella Ella: and Wol ... to pronounce his name is easy
    arabella Ella: Chick ... sent ... me ... high
    Lia Rikugun: haha seemed to be very difficult
    arabella Ella: :)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Gaya Ethaniel: What's Chick sent me high?
    arabella Ella: now i can only pronounce it but not spell it correctly
    arabella Ella: ok using copy and paste to spell corectly
    arabella Ella: Csikszentmihalyi is pronounced chick sent me high
    Wol Euler: well, I had to read from the back cover of the book :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... :)


    here it gets a little quieter and Mick tells us about his "mad house"...

    Mickorod Renard: lovely and quiet
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Mickorod Renard: I must sort my sound system out
    Mickorod Renard: still living out of boxes
    Wol Euler: heh
    Lia Rikugun: wow me too, when did you move mick?
    Mickorod Renard: 2 weeks ago
    Lia Rikugun: oh :)
    Wol Euler: oh, well, htat's OK still :)
    Lia Rikugun: (I am not saying when I moved in :P)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Mickorod Renard: well, I am feeling more comfey now..its starting to look like home
    Lia Rikugun: thats nice
    Wol Euler: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Mickorod Renard: come on Lia,,you have to tell us when you moved
    Lia Rikugun: hm i am ashamed
    Lia Rikugun: ;)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Lia Rikugun: ....
    Lia Rikugun: few months ago :)
    Wol Euler: yeah, but you're a student, they are allowed to live in boxes
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Lia Rikugun: was enjoying the summer
    Lia Rikugun: in my defense
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Mickorod Renard: when I moved my stuff back from France I realized I had boxes full that I had not opened in 10 years
    Lia Rikugun: yes! :D
    Wol Euler nods.
    Lia Rikugun: this is fun
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Wol Euler: but did you throw them out?
    Mickorod Renard: packed as I had took them to France
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Qt Core: i still have boxes in the attic and i've lived here for the last 29 years ;-)
    arabella Ella: we discussed a similar topic here with Storm ... was it yesterday Qt?
    Qt Core: yes
    arabella Ella: As Storm said he had to throw out most of his stuff
    Mickorod Renard: some I did..but most are full of my most precious items
    Wol Euler: ... which you never ever see or hold.
    Shyama Sheryffe: time to sleep, goodnight all
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel whispers. "Need to go. Good night."
    Mickorod Renard: bye Shy
    Wol Euler: 'night shyama, take cre
    Lia Rikugun: good night shyama
    Wol Euler: bye gaya
    arabella Ella: nite Gaya
    Lia Rikugun: bye gaya
    arabella Ella: Nite Shyama
    Mickorod Renard: bye Gaya
    arabella Ella: how precious is stuff that is never present ... never seen?
    Mickorod Renard: I know
    Lia Rikugun: its mostly a memory
    arabella Ella: and why is it so easy for us to hoard stuff so much?
    Qt Core: never seen who say never present ? ;-)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Mickorod Renard: but because France home was like a mad house,,I darnt open those boxes
    arabella Ella: he he
    Lia Rikugun: what is a mad house?
    arabella Ella: a normal regular home
    Mickorod Renard: well,,first it had to be renovated
    Lia Rikugun: hehe
    Mickorod Renard: so lots of construction
    Lia Rikugun: oh
    Mickorod Renard: then it became normal to do strange activities there,,that fragile items wouldnt survive
    Lia Rikugun: interesting
    Wol Euler nods
    Mickorod Renard: my lounge was 25mtrs by 11mtrs
    Wol Euler: wow
    Lia Rikugun: wow thats huge!
    Lia Rikugun: nice house
    Lia Rikugun: castle?
    Mickorod Renard: and I would blay football and ride bicycles around it
    Wol Euler: cool
    Mickorod Renard: also birds and bats would fly around in it depending on wether it was day or night
    Lia Rikugun: :) this sounds so nice, must have been in the middle of natire
    Lia Rikugun: nature
    Mickorod Renard: no,,it was just too much to manage
    Lia Rikugun: ok i understand
    Qt Core: time to go, bye all
    Wol Euler: bye qt
    arabella Ella: notte Qt
    Mickorod Renard: bye QT
    Lia Rikugun: byebye
    Lia Rikugun: i think i need t leave soon too
    Mickorod Renard: me too
    Mickorod Renard: thankyou all , for tonite
    Lia Rikugun: good night
    Wol Euler: bye lia, mick, enjoy the evening
    arabella Ella: nite Mick
    Mickorod Renard: bye,,and you Wol
    arabella Ella: nite Lia
    Wol Euler: onigokko
    Wol Euler: heheheheheh
    Lia Rikugun: hehehehe
    arabella Ella: he he
    Mickorod Renard: its a mad house
    Lia Rikugun: yes it is!
    Wol Euler: just thought I'd start the weekend off well.
    arabella Ella enjoys this so much
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    arabella Ella was wondering who the culprit was
    arabella Ella: he he
    Lia Rikugun: good night all! bye
    arabella Ella would love to do this in RL too
    Wol Euler: stop
    Wol Euler: goodngiht!
    arabella Ella: :)
    Lia Rikugun: :) didnt want to interrupt
    Yakuzza Lethecus: lol, we can try
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye wol
    Wol Euler: I shall go too. 'night all, take care, be appy
    arabella Ella: like Pila's tai chi too
    arabella Ella: nite Wol
    arabella Ella: i must go too
    arabella Ella: nite

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