2009.07.21 19:00 - Avatars, gaps, buildings

The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Threedee Shepherd: Hello Eos
Eos Amaterasu: HI ThreeD
Eos Amaterasu: A quiet summer day
Threedee Shepherd: Very much so
Threedee Shepherd: This hour was "quiet" last night, too

Eos and ThreeDee discuss visualization and pragmatism

Eos Amaterasu: SL & RL personna
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, eventually we did get a topic going
Eos Amaterasu: SL is to some extent a visualization practice, it seems
Eos Amaterasu: Making it more apparent the extent to which RL is visualized as well
Eos Amaterasu: & the nine secs can also be suspension within the ongoing visualization
Threedee Shepherd: You mean it is visually based? The main communication is really this type chat
Eos Amaterasu: I mean visualization in a more general sense: perhaps as "projection"
Eos Amaterasu: with "grooming behavior" that helps create our appearance
Threedee Shepherd: yes, that sounds appropriate
Eos Amaterasu: Vajrayana buddhism uses visualization as a way to catch up with ourselves always visualizing anyway
Eos Amaterasu: SL seems similar in that regard
Eos Amaterasu: we play with idealized or whimsical versions of ourselves
Eos Amaterasu: (interesting word :-) [idealized]
Threedee Shepherd: I do not know very much about Vajrayana
Eos Amaterasu: it more or less uses the phenomenal world and appearances as the path
Eos Amaterasu: rather than pushing it away
Threedee Shepherd: how does that differ from Western Pragmatism?
Eos Amaterasu: Hmm.. can you say more about Western Pragmatism?

--BELL--

Threedee Shepherd: It is based on accepting and interacting with the world as it presents itself, recognizing that we and the world make the perceptions we have of it by our interactions. In terms of "explanations" it asks, "What do you want an explanation to do for you". There is no mysticism or metaphysics involved.
Threedee Shepherd: I am looking at the Wikipedia entry on Vajrayana and it seems that Pragmatism is very much like the "conventional truth" of the two-truths
Eos Amaterasu: Vajrayana shares with most buddhism an analysis, accompanied by personal experiment, of the lack of attainable or concludable substantiality to experience of "out there"
Eos Amaterasu: as well as of experience of "me here"
Eos Amaterasu: Ie, the "you", and its intention(s), is put into question as much as the "that"
Threedee Shepherd: Pragmatism assumes an "out there" of "forces and substances based in atoms" . However, it recognizes that human perception of it is subjective and cannot be otherwise.
Eos Amaterasu: Appreciating presence of appearance can open up, soften, make less defined (although more precise) experience
Eos Amaterasu: including experience of oneself
Eos Amaterasu: visualizing oneself as an idealized form is part of that
Eos Amaterasu: what are you besides your self image?
Eos Amaterasu: you are a lion
Threedee Shepherd: My interpretation of pragmatism and a current form of it called Naturalism is that it does not deny that there is a physical corpus (body) that is a locus of experience. However, it does not assert that there is "someone in there" other than the existance itself.
Eos Amaterasu: experience itself is undeniable
Threedee Shepherd: agreed
Eos Amaterasu: when examined it tends to be slippery, intangible
Eos Amaterasu: the same applies to experience of oneself
Eos Amaterasu: so there may be agreement with pragmatism re there not being "someone ine there"
Threedee Shepherd: My experience is always a story told after the fact.
Eos Amaterasu: I think in a way there is concatenation of stuff that we experience, and embellish
Threedee Shepherd: A mystery that is still and always present is that I experience "consciousness" AND cannot explain how it arises or what its purpose is--if any.
Threedee Shepherd: yes that concatenation is the collection of related stories
Eos Amaterasu: True - I find myself being here, aware (even if discontinuously aware)

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: There seems to be a bit of a play between being "aware of something", and gaps in that, where there still might be sense of aware, awake
Eos Amaterasu: touch and go
Threedee Shepherd: We only take as much into awareness as is needed to make the moment of living sensible. Much is just happening that forms the context.
Eos Amaterasu: I like that: making the moment of living sensible
Eos Amaterasu: and finding, in sensibility, the moment
Threedee Shepherd: YES, both directions. A wonderful insight.
Eos Amaterasu: awareness, appreciation, of presence of appearance is a kind of moment smeared out over appearance
Threedee Shepherd: all is appearance and appearance is all, at the conscious level
Eos Amaterasu: "no poetry but in things" (Whitman? WC Williams?)
Eos Amaterasu sees an av walk by

Can there be just awareness, without thingy-ness?

Threedee Shepherd: hmmm, now I back up a bit and ask if thoughts, ideas, concepts and even dreams, are "things"
Eos Amaterasu: perhaps there is no experience of things without thought (thought including sensation)
Eos Amaterasu: and thought includes experience of emotion, wish, intention, which are less "thingy" but still very real
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, but is there experience of thought without "things"
Eos Amaterasu: Ah, yes, good question

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: kind of subtle, too, since "experience" implies "experience of...", and so "experience of thingyness"
Threedee Shepherd: All thought involves the body and its history of "thingy" experiences, even if that is virtual and not present in the moment, I believe.

Can you find that in transitions?

Eos Amaterasu: One classic buddhist et al recipe for realizing awareness itself is to attend to after the last thought, and before the next one
Eos Amaterasu: eg, transitions, gaps
Threedee Shepherd: I do not understand. If the gap is truly "empty" there is no-thing to attend to, only the emptyness.
Eos Amaterasu: It's not so much that you can "catch" or "see" that gap , because then you thingify it
Eos Amaterasu: but you kind of allow it
Eos Amaterasu: something like that you and experience are already coming from that
Threedee Shepherd: Why do you even assert there is a gap, as opposed to a continuum with subtle transitions
Eos Amaterasu: Well, transitions says it: there is discontinuity (in the realm of things and thingification)
Threedee Shepherd: There is a physical discontinuity between a rock and the tree it is next to. However, perhaps there is no discontinuity to thought/experience, other than one I invent for the purpose of sanity
Eos Amaterasu: My perceptual world, such as my visual field, has seeming continuity to it
Eos Amaterasu: but it's dynamically and actively constructed, and sometimes I can experience that
Threedee Shepherd: yes, that is true of all senses, more or less
Threedee Shepherd: Are you saying you are experiencing the act of constructing itself, in addition to or instead of the thing constructed?
Eos Amaterasu: I think in simple ways... I don't actually see around my shoulders, but still act in some kind of continuity of presence of visual world around me

--BELL--

Threedee Shepherd: I am not sure I understand what you just said
Eos Amaterasu: The sound of the bell is smeared out in my experience past the time it "actually" rings
Eos Amaterasu: I still kind of hear it :-)
Threedee Shepherd: yes
Threedee Shepherd: and it has a meaning that is even more diffuse and continuous
Eos Amaterasu: moments of shock can bring on alert awareness, with no content
Eos Amaterasu: yes, that makes music possible, probably
Threedee Shepherd: back to my question, are there "really" gaps
Eos Amaterasu: and, related, can you really experience gaps?
Threedee Shepherd: yes, although the experience is more "invention" if gaps do not exist
Eos Amaterasu: "you can't attend your own funeral"
Threedee Shepherd: there is no you, when the funeral occurs
Eos Amaterasu: Exactly.... and when a gap occurs, there's also no it and no you
Eos Amaterasu: so in a a sense you cannot "experience" gaps in a conventional way
Eos Amaterasu: if you do you fill them up
Threedee Shepherd: Are you saying living is a long series of deaths and births?
Eos Amaterasu: Yes... that is a classical understanding of the moment by moment process
Eos Amaterasu: and how meditation prepares one for death, which is another gap - not fundamentally different
Eos Amaterasu: (that's a pretty radical thought :-)
Threedee Shepherd: Well, here is an example of Pragmatism at work. I have no experiences that are made more understandable by that concept. It is possible, but adds nothing I "need"
Eos Amaterasu: How about the experience of loss?
Eos Amaterasu: You identified yourself wth something, it was precious and meaningful to you, and now it's gone
Threedee Shepherd: Loss, does not include my death (until it is this corpus/brain/body that dies
Eos Amaterasu: Death as potential (inevitable) loss of yourself?

--BELL--

Threedee Shepherd: Yes, that happens. I would use the phrase "end of myself" not "loss of myself"
Eos Amaterasu: Threedee, I have to leave (speaking of ends) - thank you for this conversation!
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, I have learned from it and we will continue, I hope. Goodnight
Eos Amaterasu: Goodnight!

Eos leaves, and just then Stevenaia arrives

Eos Amaterasu: Stevenaia, hi and bye!
stevenaia Michinaga: waves
Threedee Shepherd: hi Steve, havn't seen you in a while
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I;ve been on vacation
Eos Amaterasu: (I can leave the chat logging going - I think it will auto-send itself to me)
stevenaia Michinaga: just had dinner with Wol, Adams
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Threedee Shepherd: So have I, continuously ;D
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Threedee Shepherd: did you *go* someplace
stevenaia Michinaga: and Fefonz
stevenaia Michinaga: was at the beach
Threedee Shepherd: brb
stevenaia Michinaga: last week
stevenaia Michinaga: ok
stevenaia Michinaga: gave me enough time to read Tao of Architecture...finally
Threedee Shepherd: so, do you have new insighrts

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: it certainly does put a fresh perspective of what things are and aren't composed of
stevenaia Michinaga: a nice balanced approah
Threedee Shepherd: true, positive and negative space and structure
stevenaia Michinaga: spokes and the hub make the wheel
stevenaia Michinaga: nice things to think about while designing
stevenaia Michinaga: I suspect I will be reading it again sometime
stevenaia Michinaga: how did your talk with the archtecutre students go a while back?
Threedee Shepherd: Still has not happened. And, I am getting involved in a somewhat different architecture related project
stevenaia Michinaga: more open Sim builds?
Threedee Shepherd: I am working with an architecture prof and a grad student to explore building OpenSim scenarios for *teaching/learning* purposes
stevenaia Michinaga: I have read of architcts meeting clinets and touring their design projects on SL
Threedee Shepherd: yes, that is going on and i "know" one of the architects involved in it
stevenaia Michinaga: wonders if it offers anything more than convenience that can't be accomplised better with digitalsmodels
Threedee Shepherd: Depends. Remember that I am a strong proponent of the "presence" aspect of *moving* an avatar around in a build, which allows emotional responses
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
sebonis500 Juventa: hola

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: yes, it does give the observer the ablility not to be "guided" with someone else controling how the space is perceived
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, and more than that, it allows a kind of emotional experience different than if the client is manipulating the 3D digital construct
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, that was what I was refering to
Threedee Shepherd: I have an actual experience of that in SL, as follows.
Threedee Shepherd: I was hired by a real hospital emercenry department to build a complete model of a renovation they are planning of the space they are in. LOTS of walls and doors. I pointed out that doing a full-scale model in SL would not "feel" big enough given the way "cameraing" works in SL. So,
Threedee Shepherd: I said that the normal rule of thumb is to build 1.5x life-size for such simulations. However, the amount of space they had available only allowe 1.2x life-szie and they agreed after the initial build that it felt "cramped". Now
Threedee Shepherd: I have rebuilt it for them on a OpenSim at 1.5x and they agree it feels right and normal.
Threedee Shepherd: Point is: things in SL "feel" a certain way when you are an avatar
stevenaia Michinaga: can't you adjust the camera angle for more real world viewing?
Threedee Shepherd: IN SL, no, perhaps so in OS, I am still exploring that
stevenaia Michinaga: brb, laundry
Threedee Shepherd: Though even in OS, it depends on the client the user is browsing with, not the server-side presentation

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: we were talking about textures and graphics cards for SL rendering this evening
Threedee Shepherd: In what sense?
stevenaia Michinaga: more vid ram affects detail FPS and distance viewing abilities
stevenaia Michinaga: so you may be sure what the other computer sees
Threedee Shepherd: true, I have been exploring that and it is usually the graphics card that is the ultimate bottleneck, not CPU of computer memory
Threedee Shepherd: Knowing what the other sees has been an issue with normal web sites forever

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I saw that recently on my site
Threedee Shepherd: Well, in 5 years, the typical computer and available network bandwith will make such viewing constraints mostly irrelebant
stevenaia Michinaga: and profits will soar, where do I invest?
Threedee Shepherd: nvidia
stevenaia Michinaga: I think Apple may stop using them in next gen macs
stevenaia Michinaga: some heat issues
Threedee Shepherd: Everyone has heat issues
stevenaia Michinaga: read something somewhere
Threedee Shepherd: and apple IS a trivial share of the overall market
Threedee Shepherd: one could hedge ones bets and invest in multiple graphics OEMs
stevenaia Michinaga: for sure
Threedee Shepherd: Makes more sense than CPU makers
Threedee Shepherd: In looking at the trends in architectural styles--for the talk I have not yet given--I observe that whatever was the theoretical. leading edge, American/Western "style" has been replaced by absurdism
stevenaia Michinaga: you have been looking at critics, not styles
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: the europeans are a bit ahead of us in that regard
Threedee Shepherd: I have been collecting pictures of buildings

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: if it ends up being a powerpoint, I;ll be happy to review it and notes
Threedee Shepherd: My daughter is on vacation in Spain at this very moment, spending much time looking at Gaudy architecture
Threedee Shepherd: ok, thanks
stevenaia Michinaga: there's a library going up, I think in czec republic that is truly crazed, lookes like a multi colored splotch on the landscape
stevenaia Michinaga: here's a nice site for world architecture: http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com...appln.showhome
Threedee Shepherd: http://static.worldarchitecturenews...._NLCR4main.jpg
stevenaia Michinaga: hehe, you found it
stevenaia Michinaga: is that what you were refering to?
stevenaia Michinaga: I think this architect died
Threedee Shepherd: Even Geery, Leibeskind and friends
stevenaia Michinaga: I think warm and fuzzy is critical to good architecture, and lacking in much of what you are refering too
stevenaia Michinaga: I would love to see how some of this stuff affects peoples brains
Threedee Shepherd: Interesting, it would make an interesting fMRI study. I am having lunch tomorrow with someone who might know, I will ask her.
stevenaia Michinaga: this is a brain on Palladio, this is a brain on Leibeskind, can you tell the difference
Threedee Shepherd: I think you could because the brain *like* symmetry and pattern
stevenaia Michinaga: yes

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: well time to go, have a good evening
Threedee Shepherd: bye