2009.07.02 19:00 - Time, Space, and Knowledge

The Guardian for this meeting was Sylectra Darwin. The comments are by Sylectra Darwin.

Sylectra Darwin: Welcome, Splashinda.
Splashinda Pond: hey, syl
Sylectra Darwin: I should tell you that we record everything said in chat for the wiki...is that okay with you?
Splashinda Pond: starting now? sure
Sylectra Darwin: yeah, but if we don't get anyone else, I don't need to post a log.
Sylectra Darwin: You have green skin.
Splashinda Pond: blue
Sylectra Darwin: looks green
Splashinda Pond: and male tattoos
Sylectra Darwin: what is a male tattoo?
Splashinda Pond: tattoos made for dudes
Splashinda Pond: but i forgot to take them off
Sylectra Darwin: hehehe
Sylectra Darwin: I think Pema might join us.
Sylectra Darwin: He's our leader.
Splashinda Pond: better
Splashinda Pond: ok
Sylectra Darwin: awesome wings.
Splashinda Pond: thanks
Sylectra Darwin: Ah - there you are, Pema.
Splashinda Pond: hi
Sylectra Darwin: Pema, meet Splashinda. Splash, this is Pema
Splashinda Pond: hi
Pema Pera: Hi Sylectra, and hi Splashinda!
Sylectra Darwin: How are you doing Pema?
Pema Pera: oh fine, busy as always, enjoying Japan again :)
Pema Pera: and how about you?
Sylectra Darwin: busy too, but I get tomorrow off and so will be sleeping in a bit.
Pema Pera: sounds nice :-)
Sylectra Darwin: You're in Japan? You'll miss the fireworks.
Splashinda Pond: i have tomorrow off too
Pema Pera: ah, but Japan has its own fireworks :)
Sylectra Darwin: excellent!
Sylectra Darwin: Hi, Threedee!
Splashinda Pond: hello
Pema Pera: Ah of course, tomrrow is the 4th of July
Sylectra Darwin: I haven't seen my favorite lion in a while!
Pema Pera: keep forgetting about American holidays :)
Pema Pera: Hi Threedee!
Threedee Shepherd: hi folks
Sylectra Darwin: You forgot, didn't you Pema.
Sylectra Darwin: lol
Sylectra Darwin: Splash and I are actually geographically close, so we're going to go looking for some fireworks to watch this weekend.
Splashinda Pond: yep
Pema Pera: great!
Sylectra Darwin: So rainy here. Hope the weather holds.
Sylectra Darwin: ThreeDee, how are you?
Threedee Shepherd: I am well thanks. I have mainly been only at my GoC session on Monday at this time, which tends to be sparcely attended
Threedee Shepherd: how are you
Sylectra Darwin: I am well too. I work a lot these days, but learn a lot too.
Sylectra Darwin: Hello Vajra. Join us?
Vajra Radikal: hi
Splashinda Pond: Hello
Vajra Radikal: im new to this place
Vajra Radikal: any rules i need 2 observe?
Sylectra Darwin: Welcome!
Pema Pera: We get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
Vajra Radikal: nope not at all
Pema Pera: we're a very informal bunch, so not to worry :)
Sylectra Darwin: Great!
Sylectra Darwin: You may have heard that chime just now.
Sylectra Darwin: That's an optional pause for silence and thought.
Sylectra Darwin: it lasts 90 seconds and will chime 4 times per hour.
Threedee Shepherd: Topic: In response to a suggestion from Pema, I am in the midst of reading "Time, Space and Knowledge" by Tarthang Tulka. It seems to me, Pema, to almost be the basis for PaB
Pema Pera: Among all the influences that came together in forming Play as Being, it was probably the strongest, yes
Sylectra Darwin: Wow, that sounds like a great read.
Sylectra Darwin: How is it organized?
Threedee Shepherd: The book has a lifetime worth of exercises/meditations that keep reminding me of the 9-sec
Vajra Radikal: Im new 2 this are your discussions on reality buddhist in nature
Vajra Radikal: ?
Threedee Shepherd: In chapters with meditations. It really would take years to do all the meditations fully
Threedee Shepherd: sometimes, yes, Vajra
Sylectra Darwin: Vajra, they can be but don't have to be.
Sylectra Darwin: We have seen folks from all types of belief systems and cultures.
Vajra Radikal: the thing is i am a new buddhist and very active at that which is weird and new to me as i have been an atheist
Vajra Radikal: all my life
Pema Pera: and there are also people here who are not interested in any system of religion or philosophy
Pema Pera: but who like to explore the nature of reality together in a group, in a freewheeling way
Vajra Radikal: spirituality is something very new and wonderful
Vajra Radikal: 2 me
Pema Pera: Buddhism is certainly compatible with a-theism :)
Vajra Radikal: especially the essence of reality
Threedee Shepherd: To me, the most important insight is that the way I used the everyday words Space, Time and Knowledge is what the book calls lower level. The higher level use in the book and by Pema in our conversations takes a thorough reorientation that is essentially a totally open non-orientation.
Sylectra Darwin: That's great, Vajra. We have quite a few buddhists visit our group.
Splashinda Pond: i find that beliefs from all religons can be true
Sylectra Darwin: Three, can you give us an example?
Sylectra Darwin: nods
Vajra Radikal: could you mention more about this book
Vajra Radikal: please
Threedee Shepherd: Space is not a place, or a container or within or outside, it is all pervasive and allows all things. Space, Time and Knowledge are essences of Being
Threedee Shepherd: Time is not then now and future, it is the all encompassing affordance for dynamic occurance in space.
Vajra Radikal: however is there a true essence of beign? as time and space are derived from perception i sometimes even doubt about the true existance of self
Threedee Shepherd: I gather it is a very famous book, written in 1971, based on Tulka's experience as a Tibetian Buddhist lama
Sylectra Darwin: Sounds like a must-read, for sure.
Vajra Radikal: gelug school?
Threedee Shepherd: There is no seld in the higher STK
Pema Pera: in 1978, quite a while ago indeed
Pema Pera: Nyingma school
Threedee Shepherd: So, Pema, I think we were talking past each other at different levels on Monday.
Pema Pera: :)
Threedee Shepherd: I have not yet read the knowledge section, yet it is clear that it differs from any concept of it that I as a neuroscientist or cognitive scientist use.
Pema Pera: it was hard to summarize a book in a few minutes . . . glad you enjoyed reading it!
Threedee Shepherd: I'm still reading
Threedee Shepherd: A question I have is that since daily life is in a lower realm/level of chop wood and carry water and have a family, how one can be in the daily realm and yet avoid being of it?
Sylectra Darwin: oh no, Pema got booted
Sylectra Darwin: he'll be back I hope.
Threedee Shepherd: or crashed
Splashinda Pond: oh dear
Vajra Radikal: 2 bad
Sylectra Darwin: Good question, ThreeDee.
Sylectra Darwin: He's back on.
Vajra Radikal: im not sure i got it
Sylectra Darwin: Welcome back, Pema!
Splashinda Pond: Welcome back
Vajra Radikal: avoid being of it
Vajra Radikal: ?
Pema Pera: Sorry, I'm on a rather flaky internet connection . . . .
Sylectra Darwin: coffee shop?
Vajra Radikal: the good thing is you are back
Threedee Shepherd: if one if "of it" in the sense I mean, that is close to accepting it as THE reality.
Pema Pera: sometimes I don't even see my own words being echoed, so if I don't respond to a question, you should presume it never reached me
Pema Pera: as for your last question, Threedee:
Vajra Radikal: i believe there is no division there is no me and reality
Pema Pera: (I seem to be frozen again)
Vajra Radikal: we have sort of a co dependency
Vajra Radikal: you create reality as much as other sentien being create yours
Vajra Radikal: there os probably no me
Vajra Radikal: at least i try to see it that way
Vajra Radikal: helps in the search of happines
Threedee Shepherd: yes Varja. And today I installed an electirc cable, drove a car, bought groceries, ate meals etc. So, some doing appears to have happened and at least some of it could have killed me if not done carefully in a worldly manner
Pema Pera: to respond to Three: while we seem to live in "lower" time, space and knowledge, from a "higher" point of view, the "lower" bits are equally part of reality, and the whole lower-higher division is like drawing lines on water -- so from the "lower" point of view there is no "higher" view possible; and from the "higher" point of view there is no separate "lower" realm, it's all part of the same "higher" realm, reality as such
Sylectra Darwin: or a mindful manner, three :)
Pema Pera: so the division is spurious in the sense of there not being any point of view in which both are simulataneously useful concepts
Threedee Shepherd: yes, Pema, I understand that. So if I am in the higher point of view realm, woulkd I drive my car any differently?
Sylectra Darwin: LOL
Vajra Radikal: lol
Pema Pera: you are always also in the higher realm :-), the more you realize that, the wider your view and the larger your realm of options, but no, nothing is lost, and you can keep driving your car the same way as before -- most likely you will be less distracted and more flexible in reacting to emergency situations :-)
Vajra Radikal: the higher plane should probably guide your lower plane in the way you recy 2 itt
Vajra Radikal: react 2 it
Pema Pera: yes, Vajra, and words are very limited here
Threedee Shepherd: From the higher plane there is no lower plane
Pema Pera: basically terms like "realms" and "higher" and "lower" are likely to be very misleading
Sylectra Darwin: I think I follow.
Vajra Radikal: if some one cuts you while u drive go to the higher plane to practice compassion and patience
Pema Pera: yes, Three
Sylectra Darwin: separation implies a limited view
Threedee Shepherd: There is being and arising of it a oneness that involves time space and knowledge. Sound alot like Avastu
Pema Pera: also, the "you", i.e. the "I" that I normally identify with is a role I am playing within the first or "lower" realm -- and that "I" or "you" cannot be catapulted to another realm, as little as a comic figure can be cut out of a comic strip and made to walk on the street . . . :-)
Vajra Radikal: as there is no other way of interacting with this so called reality than using your perception the essence remains in looking beyond your perception
Threedee Shepherd: yes, I understand that
Pema Pera: yes, Avastu comes from Nisargadatta. You may be interested to also read Nisargadatta's "I am That", Three -- much simpler, but similar in spirit for sure
Sylectra Darwin: welcome back, Splash
Splashinda Pond: thanks, syl
Vajra Radikal: welcome
Pema Pera: http://www.amazon.com/I-Am-That-Talks-Nisargadatta/dp/0893860220/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246589352&sr=1-1 is the URL for Nisargadatta's book -- strongly recommended
Splashinda Pond: thanks
Vajra Radikal: thanx
Vajra Radikal: i defenately need to read more
Vajra Radikal: definately
Threedee Shepherd: There seems to be an analogy (at least) between the dimensions of TSK as defined from the higher realm, and the multiple dimensions of string theory
Pema Pera: lunch call here -- have to leave soon
Vajra Radikal: btw im looking 2 read more on the nature of emptiness
Pema Pera: that I'm not sure of, Threedee
Vajra Radikal: any good titles?
Pema Pera: sorry, have to run -- great talking with you all !
Vajra Radikal: namaste
Sylectra Darwin: ok pema, see you
Threedee Shepherd: bye
Sylectra Darwin: I like this quote from the book I am That - Hundreds of diverse seekers traveled the globe and sought him out in his unpretentious home to hear him. To all of them he gave hope that "beyond the real experience is not the mind, but the self, the light in which everything appears...the awareness in which everything happens."
Sylectra Darwin: Thank you for the green tea, Vajra.
Splashinda Pond: thank you vajra
Threedee Shepherd: thank you for the tea
Vajra Radikal: u r welcome
Sylectra Darwin: (that was in the Amazon.com review)
Vajra Radikal: my way of thanking u 4 great conversation
Sylectra Darwin: aww
Sylectra Darwin: you contributed greatly. Thank you as well.
Vajra Radikal: not sure about that my english is a bit rusty
Sylectra Darwin: not a problem understanding you.
Vajra Radikal: thx however i find myself at a lack 4 words 2 express myself
Threedee Shepherd: it is OK Vajra, my reality is similarly rusty :D
Sylectra Darwin: haha! delightful
Vajra Radikal: lol
Sylectra Darwin: I would LIKE my reality to be rusty.
Vajra Radikal: i have 2 part as my battery is about 2 dye on me
Vajra Radikal: the true nature of samsara ;(
Sylectra Darwin: oh dear :)
Sylectra Darwin: well, our hour is almost up anyway
Sylectra Darwin: please come back anytime -
Sylectra Darwin: we meet at 7 a.m., 1 p.m., 7 p.m. and 1 a.m. SLT time
Threedee Shepherd: Thanks for the conversation, friends
Sylectra Darwin: every day
Sylectra Darwin: thank you Three!
Threedee Shepherd: goodnight, see you again
Sylectra Darwin: night, pleasant dreams