2008.06.03 07:00 - Angles on Dreams

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    It was morning in Rieul again. Entering the tea house, I found Fael and Maxine waiting.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema
    Maxine Walden: I don’t recall, is this evening or morning for you?
    Fael Illyar: 17:00
    Maxine Walden: Hi, Pema
    Maxine Walden: ah, afternoon
    Pema Pera: hi there, good evening for me, and something else for you!
    Pema Pera: morning for Maxine, afternoon for Fael?
    Maxine Walden: oh yes, we all have our times of day
    Fael Illyar: Hi Moon
    Moon Fargis: good day :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Moon
    Pema Pera: Hi Moonlet
    Maxine Walden: Moonlet — little moon?

    Moon had entered, in his infant-like avatar version, soon followed by Riddle, the guardian for this slot in time.

    Moon Fargis: just wanted to take a friend is coming in a few minutes
    Moon Fargis: +look
    Fael Illyar: Hi Riddle
    Maxine Walden: hi, Riddle
    Pema Pera: Hi Riddle!
    Moon Fargis: hi mate!
    Pema Pera: Thanks, Riddle for taking up this slot!
    Riddle Sideways: sorry, things were going baddly in the RL house
    Riddle Sideways: how is everybody today
    Moon Fargis: fine thaks
    Pema Pera: I’m fine but my today is almost done
    Fael Illyar: I’m fine :)
    Maxine Walden: good here
    Riddle Sideways: the different timezones stilll dazal me
    Maxine Walden: me too
    Fael Illyar: They do make some things awkward.
    Fael Illyar: like meetings, greetings and such :)
    Pema Pera: like sleep
    Pema Pera: :)
    Maxine Walden: yes, sleep
    Fael Illyar: Oh, yes, sleep too
    Riddle Sideways: yes sleep
    Maxine Walden: we all agree on that

    Yes, sleep or lack thereof is a popular topic in SL.

    Faenik: ah :)
    Fael Illyar: I noticed something interesting about my explorations. I think I’m seeing something every time but most of the time I can’t recognise anything.
    Maxine Walden: could you say more, Fael?
    Fael Illyar: They’re very faint, almost like black and white images without gray shades often.
    Fael Illyar: although, there have been enough shades that I think it’s somehow just a matter of not seeing them clearly enough.
    Moon Fargis: ah i know what you mean
    Pema Pera: Hi *
    Fael Illyar: Hello Stargate
    Riddle Sideways: hi sun
    Stargate Tone: Hello all
    Moon Fargis: hi star

    Stargate had just joined us.

    Moon Fargis: fael: this happens when you close your eyes right?
    Fael Illyar: Ah, yes.
    Moon Fargis: yes you will see more of then when you slightly press on your eyes
    Moon Fargis: then you can even see light
    Pema Pera: well, haha
    Moon Fargis: this happens due blood circulation in your eyes
    Stargate Tone: can I also hear what happenes then ?
    Pema Pera: we can always play that way too but
    Pema Pera: in general closing your eyes is one way yes to do the 9-sec
    Pema Pera: it helps to get closer to dream images
    Stargate Tone: **
    Maxine Walden: I think that is true, closer to dream images, when one’s eyes are closed
    Fael Illyar: Although, there were 2 times when I think there was too much detail and too much stability that those were something different.
    Riddle Sideways: and the spots you see though physically explainable are still valueible visions
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Riddle Sideways: yes
    Moon Fargis: fael: i think 9 seconds arent enouht for the eyes to come down from seeing things
    Pema Pera: for the mind fine though :)
    Stargate Tone: well…9 sec is very long time…
    Pema Pera: yes!

    It seemed that Moon and I were going in quite different directions :-).

    Moon Fargis: the same thing happens when you look into a verry bright light and close your eyes then you will still see that light even after 30 seconds
    Pema Pera: Moon, I don’t think we are talking about physical seeing…..
    Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, I think those 2 times I referred to were among my first attempts that took probably up to a minute.
    Maxine Walden: we may be speaking about at least two different levels of experience here
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Pema Pera: but rather about lifting a veil
    Maxine Walden: one due to physical circumstances and another having to do with attention
    Moon Fargis: there are many optical delusions based on this ways the eyes working
    Pema Pera: between dreaming and waking
    Pema Pera: one of many veils
    Pema Pera: I don’t think it is related to optical illusions
    Moon Fargis: ah uhm well i thought fael mean se see something due the 9 seconds
    Stargate Tone: so sry falks; RL call..need to go and pick up somehting
    Stargate Tone: nice to meet You *
    Pema Pera: bye *!
    Stargate Tone: Have Good Time *
    Fael Illyar: Bye Star
    Moon Fargis: bye star
    Stargate Tone: stargate

    Stargate left, and I asked Fael to say more about her experiences.

    Pema Pera: Fael, which of the two do you think it is?
    Faenik loves wells!
    Pema Pera: dreamlke or optical illusion like
    Riddle Sideways: oooo ty star
    Fael Illyar: I wonder
    Fael Illyar: the flashes are more likely to be optical illusion I guess.
    Pema Pera: yes, that makes sense
    Pema Pera: but images, as you described them before, more like visions of landscape scenes
    Pema Pera: that does seem like like dreams don’t you think, dream images at least?
    Fael Illyar: Yes
    Pema Pera: you can cultivate those
    Pema Pera: and they can appear almost instantly
    Pema Pera: I have suggested to Maxine to play with that a few times
    Pema Pera: but for you they came spontaneously

    Showshow walked in and sat down with us.

    showshow Camel: hi all
    Riddle Sideways: though they be flashes, color compliements or images it is still the interruptation or reactions that the mind gives that would be important
    Riddle Sideways: during a 9-sec periond
    Fael Illyar: Hello showshow
    Pema Pera: and dreams, Riddle, would you call those interruptions too?
    Riddle Sideways: hi cam
    Pema Pera: hi Showshow!
    Maxine Walden: hello Show show
    Riddle Sideways: hmmmm what we do with them is
    Pema Pera: Maxine, did you find some time to try to play with dream images?
    Riddle Sideways: dreams may be what they are, but what we do with them would be interrupting
    Maxine Walden: yes, some…and the images seemed to fold into a quiet narrative
    Riddle Sideways: go ahead maxine
    Maxine Walden: let’s see what I can say succinctly
    Maxine Walden: Pema had suggested i play with dream images while awake as opposed to the dreams I often have when asleep
    Maxine Walden: and there seems in my experience so far to be a kind of litling narrative quality
    Maxine Walden: as part of the experience of allowing/following images when awake
    Pema Pera: By showshow, hi * :)
    Maxine Walden: not always the same narrative
    Stargate Tone: hi again
    Stargate Tone: canceled pick up; wanted to hurry back
    Fael Illyar: Hi *
    Pema Pera: ^^

    While Showshow was leaving, Stargate was joining us again.

    Maxine Walden: but something linking maybe a thought or an image such as landscape
    Maxine Walden: not sure what meaning to attach to those images/narratives but just allowing them seems interesting
    Maxine Walden: at this point
    Faenik: ah :)
    Pema Pera: What is interesting in all this for me, is that early on, when doing the PaB for the first time, in March, in preparation for these sessions, I also very naturally went into these images/visions/dreamscapes, fairy tale like
    Pema Pera: not surprisingly for me, since I have worked somewhat extensively with lucid dreams
    Pema Pera: a number of years ago
    Pema Pera: and then extended that into a kind of daydreaming, you could say
    Pema Pera: long story
    Pema Pera: anyway, I did not want to say much about that
    Pema Pera: since I did not want to influence how all of you would do the 9-sec exploration
    Pema Pera: prefered to wait and see
    Pema Pera: but after a month or so
    Fael Illyar: I’ve also tested a bit with lucid dreams but the interest faded after a couple and I forgot about it.
    Pema Pera: given that Maxine had often talked about her dreams, and how vivid they were, and their quality especially
    Pema Pera: I asked her a few times to explore this direction
    Pema Pera: I think it may be interesting for all of us, at least for those to whom this comes relatively naturally
    Pema Pera: so I was very happy to read in the blog of a couple days ago
    Pema Pera: an afternoon session where I was not present
    Pema Pera: (dreaming myself in Japan at 5 am)
    Pema Pera: that Fael reported such experiences
    Pema Pera: so I’d love to explore those together, sharing what we can, over the weeks to come
    Maxine Walden: that would be very interesting
    Riddle Sideways: yes, very interesting

    We talked about writing as a technique.

    Fael Illyar: I hope I manage to figure out how to get those at will
    Pema Pera: Key is writing
    Pema Pera: lab notes
    Pema Pera: absolutely crucial
    Pema Pera: may not seem that way
    Pema Pera: but it is
    Pema Pera: after you wake up from a dream and write down just three words
    Pema Pera: a day later you can still remember
    Pema Pera: don’t write and five minutes later all is forgotten
    Fael Illyar: I’ve been writing down something from every exploration that I’ve managed to get something out of
    Maxine Walden: writing notes may encourage a feedback loop as well, noting, ‘imaging’, noting, etc
    Stargate Tone: may I ask this; why to try to remember the dream that is easy to forget ?
    Pema Pera: that’s great, Fael, and a good trick is to write “nothing to write” if you don’t have anything you remember
    Pema Pera: yes, Maxine!
    Pema Pera: *
    Pema Pera: what we are exploring
    Maxine Walden: a kind of focus of attention but also not letting the ‘experience’ fall over the horizon as fading dreams often do
    Pema Pera: is to find ways to cross over from waking to dreaming and back
    Pema Pera: lift the veils
    Pema Pera: open the doors
    Pema Pera: and remembering is one way
    Pema Pera: yes, Maxine
    Maxine Walden: paying attention as well, attention, notation, etc
    Fael Illyar: Hello Storm
    Maxine Walden: hi, Storm
    Pema Pera: Hi Storm!
    Storm Nordwind: Hi guys. Sorry late

    Storm joined us and sat down as well.

    Stargate Tone: I asked that question, cuz I’ve ‘worked’ with ppls dreams my hole life
    Stargate Tone: and them best dreams are them forgottan…
    Riddle Sideways: I now have a pile of notes. When should I go back through them?
    Stargate Tone: as far as I know helping ppl with them dreams
    Maxine Walden: nice to log those notes if possible into a log, Riddle, to be able to follow the sequence
    Stargate Tone: but very urgent is to ‘open’ them dreams, which one do remember
    Stargate Tone: cuz they do have huge messages to our awaken mind
    Pema Pera: Riddle, no strict need to go through them — just writing them down is a magnifying glass, and at least half of the function — but if you want, you can do it in some detail and see what patterns strike the eye — but I wouldn’t spend much time on that
    Stargate Tone: them are truely opening the veils…
    Faenik loves wells!
    does Faenik love veils?
    Maxine Walden: I agree that dreams have messages for us, but probably best not to force oneself re ‘opening’ the dream, for in my experience the dream can escape when ‘forced’
    Stargate Tone: they have their ‘job’ to do too…
    Stargate Tone: but not always
    Faenik loves wells that fall on him.
    well well well
    Stargate Tone: that I ment
    Stargate Tone: cuz the dreams we forget
    Stargate Tone: they have ‘done’ there work completley
    Stargate Tone: but ANY kind of dream we remember, is unopened letter
    Stargate Tone: no matter is it’s good or bad dream
    Maxine Walden: many feel that one function of the dream is to consolidate memories and experiences into the mind/brain, but others are more interested in the hidden meanings
    Stargate Tone: many ppl make mistakes trusting that they have understood there good dream, which they remember
    Stargate Tone: but that is not so
    Maxine Walden: and the mind being so interestingly complex there are probably many simultaneous meanings available, like a kaleidoscope
    Stargate Tone: and all of them ‘hidden’ is such, that our soul tires to tell us ‘nicely
    Stargate Tone: ….cannot help myself asking this; do You all know Edgar Cayce ?
    Stargate Tone: meaning for sure about hime
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Maxine Walden: in my experience as well the meaning as remembered re a dream or a daydream can change over time
    Maxine Walden: I do not know Edgar Cayce
    Stargate Tone: well; he was world wide know dream explaner….
    Maxine Walden: ah.
    Stargate Tone: and to my sadness, his readinss are used so so much wrong
    Stargate Tone: just to make business
    Stargate Tone: and use ppls interests to know the dreams
    Stargate Tone: but almost all ‘done’ after him is fauls; only to get money

    Different angles on dreaming were presented.

    Moon Fargis: well if i may add something to this topic, due my zen practial work i more and more realized that our mid is made out of different layes of thoughts. Loud ones.. and verry quiet ones.. i counted around 5 - 6 layers. the quiet ones where verrrry confuse and not logical generated by the mind..alot of silent babbling . and i came to the conclude that they are responsible for our dreams becasue we switch off our normal loud layers of thoughts while we start to sleep
    Stargate Tone: sure dreams r to manipulate already during…
    could be
    Moon Fargis: so manipulating dreams is i think the ability to controll these quiet thoughts
    Maxine Walden: interesting, Moon
    Stargate Tone: yes
    Stargate Tone: indeed; the more one do understand dreams
    Stargate Tone: the more there ‘comes’ ’skill’ to manipulate
    Stargate Tone: yet
    Stargate Tone: each one do create most of one’s own dreams
    Stargate Tone: but not them, what r not dreams, but soul traveling…
    Stargate Tone: ppl do not always ’see’ the difference between that either….
    Stargate Tone: and if I may say ….I take that there’s much to do with them dream books
    Stargate Tone: cuz ppl have trusted to them too much
    Stargate Tone: and let there mind to be kind of controlled by ‘other’s’….
    Stargate Tone: dogmas…
    Maxine Walden: I find it more interesting to consider our personal meanings…re dreams and dreamlike images
    Maxine Walden: because they are part of our immediate experience
    Faenik: ah :)
    Stargate Tone: mostly yes
    Stargate Tone: …thinking U r still aware also them fortune telling dreams too…
    Maxine Walden: could it be that we are in awe of our own unknown processes and thus turn to others to tell us?
    Stargate Tone: oh so many times that is so
    Stargate Tone: to ‘meet’ some ‘hidden’ thing in oneself
    Riddle Sideways: this discussion is so fastinating. every time I have ever listened to dream experts they have been as a single lecturer or expert. to be amoung many in dialog is awesome
    Stargate Tone: is so often much easier to do with a friend *
    Maxine Walden: that it is hard to envision that we might be able as Pema is suggesting to open the doors between our waking and ‘unawake’ or ‘unknown’ parts?
    Maxine Walden: it is nice, Riddle, to have such conversation…no experts, all experiencers
    Stargate Tone: that’s what happenes always when one can open such dream that one do remember easily
    Stargate Tone: specially, if there’s a question in many times seen good feeling dream
    Stargate Tone: hmm….well…all r experts…to own dreams anyway :)***

    At this point I was whisked away by tp to my own home; I must have hit a couple keys wrongly by mistake. However, being nearby and realizing what had happened I was back in a sec, well, in about 9 seconds.

    Riddle: pema poofed
    Maxine Walden: I think he did…
    Riddle Sideways: wb pema
    Stargate Tone: wcb Pema
    Pema Pera: sorry
    Maxine Walden: Pema, did you have a sudden dream draw you away?
    Pema Pera: I think I hit a “go home” key stroke by mistake :)
    Pema Pera: or perhaps I was dreaming . . .
    Stargate Tone: **
    Stargate Tone: :)*
    Pema Pera: I should start dreaming soon though
    Maxine Walden: yes, it is late for you, Pema
    Pema Pera: but just to give my 2 cents worth :)
    Faenik loves wells!
    Pema Pera: and thanks, Riddle! Glad you are enjoying this
    Pema Pera: I see at least three ways of working with dreams
    Pema Pera: and probably many more
    Pema Pera: like analysing the content
    Moon Fargis: ok i also have to go now
    Moon Fargis: see you later everyone
    Stargate Tone: …sad…
    Pema Pera: and opening to see what “messages” come up
    Pema Pera: and just tasting the texture themselves of dreams
    Pema Pera: To be continued!
    Maxine Walden: bye, Moon
    Stargate Tone: see You
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you Moon
    Stargate Tone: bye
    Riddle Sideways: bye moon
    Stargate Tone: rl phone

    Moon and Stargate left, and I was about to go as well.

    Pema Pera: Riddle, can you send me the chatlog later?
    Maxine Walden: the conversation about dreams will likely never end really
    Pema Pera: Including my 9 second gap?
    Riddle Sideways: yes, will do
    Maxine Walden: and I will need to go soon as well
    Pema Pera: I don’t know how many of you are old enough to remember Richard Nixon’s gaps . . . . .
    Riddle Sideways: and let us continue this several times
    Pema Pera: he was an early master of the 9 seconds
    Maxine Walden: I recall Nixon’s gaps well
    Riddle Sideways: lol
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Pema Pera: please continue, don’t let me stop you!
    Fael Illyar: Bye Pema :)
    Maxine Walden: bye, Pema
    Pema Pera: sleep well, eventually!
    Riddle Sideways: bye
    Storm Nordwind: bye!
    Maxine Walden: hopefully sleep soon

    After I left, the session continued. I’m adding my comments below to the remaining part of the chat log that Riddle sent me afterwards.

    Fael Illyar: Storm, you had something interesting on your blog.
    Storm Nordwind: Which bit?
    Fael Illyar: Reverse PaB
    Storm Nordwind: Oh yes. Pema commented on that one
    Storm Nordwind: “DON’T TRY THIS AT HOME!”
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I read that part of the blog entry :)
    Fael Illyar: Although, I doubt I even could, as of yet.
    Storm Nordwind: Probably best not to try! :)
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Storm Nordwind: I have these flights of fancy :)
    Fael Illyar: I mean, I’m not even sure how to do that. I’d guess I’m still at this Non-Being state you talked about a lot of the time.
    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps it comes with increasaing ability to focus
    Storm Nordwind: It actually reminded me of quite another experience that is WAY outside the normal PaB practice
    Fael Illyar: What is that?
    Storm Nordwind: Have you heard of seith - pronounced saythe?
    Fael Illyar: No, I don’t think so.
    Riddle: no
    Fael Illyar: at least the name rings no bells
    Storm Nordwind: It is an ancient North European shamanic practice
    Storm Nordwind: Done by the pre-Christian heathens
    Faenik: ah :)
    Storm Nordwind: and reconstructed by some researchers I know
    Storm Nordwind: although I’m not convinced they are reconstructing in the right way!
    Storm Nordwind: The shaman goes into a trance and is sung there by the onlookers
    Storm Nordwind: Ideally the person in the trance has a guardian who accompanies them on their journey
    Storm Nordwind: But who is also fully conscious of the outside world too
    Storm Nordwind: They journey to another realm and asks questions of other beings they find there based on the requests of the onlookers
    Storm Nordwind: The guardian’s job is too protect them if they get into trouble
    Storm Nordwind: I used to do the job of guardian
    Storm Nordwind: Though it was odd why the whole trance thing was necessary, since i was fully aware of both worlds without the need for near stupor in the trance!! :)
    Storm Nordwind: But this being aware of two worlds simultaneously was something I used with this reverse PaB thing
    Storm Nordwind: So I was able to break away from it when I found it too agonising.

    There was some discussion about the nature of the realm that Storm described.

    Fael Illyar: is this other world a dream world of some kind?
    Storm Nordwind: If you believe the cosmology, no this world was a real parallel place. In Heathen mythology, it is called Hel, but just a slow place to meet departed family, not a bad place.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Fael Illyar: Since you say you were aware of it, what would you call it?
    Storm Nordwind: I was aware of it as Hel. I have been to these places. They were as real as the god and goddesses of that and other realms.
    Fael Illyar: I guess I lack knowledge or experience to really understand this.
    Storm Nordwind: Those are wise words. I would rather someone admit that than try and pass opinions on things they don’t know (which is sadly more common!)
    Fael Illyar: Well, that’s all I really can say about it. I quite clearly have nearly no idea what you were just talking about. Most people tend to automatically equate that with … well, nonsense.
    Storm Nordwind: That is why I do not speak of these things normally. Not that I care what others think of me, but rather there is no need to clutter other people’s minds with those things
    Fael Illyar: Yes, probably better that way.
    Riddle: and then you find yourself amoung friends of similar experiences and can write of them
    Storm Nordwind: Having friends with similar experiences can help you accept what you experience and can help you give yourself permission to go further
    Storm Nordwind: That’s the subject of my latest blog entry! :)
    Faenik: ????^^
    Riddle: we await publication :)
    Storm Nordwind: Already waiting for you to read :)

    Stargate re-entered.

    Stargate Tone: sry again
    Riddle: ok star
    Riddle: we all drifted off there
    Storm Nordwind remembers he has that effect on people
    Riddle: :)
    Fael Illyar: I like that blog entry because it pretty much describes my approach to new things.
    Storm Nordwind: I am so pleased to hear that. Both open-minded and open-hearted :)
    Fael Illyar: At least, that’s my goal. I might not always succeed at it.
    Fael Illyar: So far it’s been working out but I’ve not tried things that I’ve thought might not be possible as of yet.
    Faenik: could be
    Storm Nordwind: I’ve found that if I think things are impossible then they usually are. Meaning that it is better for me not even to think they are possible or not
    Fael Illyar: I’ve noticed that in respect to “impossible for me” vs not paying any heed to that at all. Same thing, really I guess
    Fael Illyar: Although runs the danger of people just regarding it as a cartoon and ignoring the message.
    Storm Nordwind: Humour is a big teacher of truth
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I guess it is :)

    Fael commented on the positioning of the remaining avatars, after some had left.

    Fael Illyar: I’m getting bothered by how we are sitting here :)
    Riddle: ok
    Fael Illyar: doesn’t feel right writing to someone behind me ;)
    Storm Nordwind: When the music stops, we have to sit on a cushion, right? ;)
    Riddle: right
    Faenik: could be
    Storm Nordwind: Or in your case, Riddle, levitate above it
    Fael Illyar: oh right, that floating in the air apparently happens if you jump from cushion to cushion directly.
    Storm Nordwind: Well it may be time for me to go and do more work on our coastal PaB site
    Riddle: my connection problems are back again
    Fael Illyar: Well, I guess this meeting has gone on for long enough :)
    Fael Illyar: looks like I need to digest this for some time before I can get anything out of it.
    Riddle: thank you, all. I will be losing connection soon
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you both later :)
    Storm Nordwind: Bye for now both
    Storm Nordwind: Namaste
    Riddle: bye all
    Fael Illyar: namaste
    Fael Illyar: I need to get that animation from somewhere
    Riddle: so much to learn

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