Stim was the guardian that afternoon. He sent me the chat log, with his comments. The picture is provided by Fael.
Fael Illyar: Hi Stim
Stim Morane: Hi Fael!
Stim Morane: Sorry I’m late
Stim Morane: How are you today?
Moon Fargis: hello
Stim Morane: Hi Moon, Isen
Moon Fargis: atm i see noone
Fael Illyar: I’m good :)
Stim Morane: Hi Betrum
Isen Enzo: Hello everyone!
Fael Illyar: Hi Isen
Fael Illyar: Hi Betrum
Isen Enzo: looks like a gathering!
Dartman Baroque: Hi Isen
Fael Illyar: Hi Caspian
Caspian Inglewood: ha ha
Bertrum Quan: hi everyone
Isen Enzo: Hi Bert.
Caspian Inglewood: yah, hi
Caspian Inglewood: katsu! pay attention!
Faenik: なるほど^^
Caspian Inglewood: ah
Caspian Inglewood: welcome
So we gradually settled in together.
Fael Illyar: stim, did you read the email Pema sent about this short bit about being that I thought was worth writing down?
Fael Illyar: I think I’ll mention it again here so everyone can read it
Moon Fargis still slurps his noodle soup
Fael Illyar: a dream from which Being is awakening. Us puppets are discovering we’re just parts of the dream and that’s what will end the dream. Until everyone has realized, Being is not fully awake.
Caspian Inglewood: Bodhisattva Vow
Stim Morane: Oh, yes, I did get that email. Very good image
Fael’s image, of all us beings needing to awaken in order to enable Being to be fully awake, is an example of how we frame matters on a higher level. There’s more in the feeling or “sense” in such images than can easily be communicated via words. As things played out in the session, so much happened that I didn’t respond in an entirely focused way to Fael … but I very much liked the image she presented nevertheless.
Caspian Inglewood: sentient beings are numberless
Caspian Inglewood: we vow to save them all
Stim Morane: Of course, Being is not incomplete.
Fael Illyar: I was hoping you’d reply to it but if you had any thoughts we can discuss them here too.
Stim Morane: But there is still a point to the intimation of something global that’s at issue
Stim Morane: your experience is quite closely related to that of others in the past who have embarked on this sort of exploration
Caspian Inglewood: it reminds me of the story of Lord Buddha
Caspian Inglewood: he delayed Nirvana so as to save all beings
Caspian Inglewood: even now
Stim Morane: we all feel the dream issue, the large scale of it, the need to awaken, what’s on the other end of that, etc.
Caspian Inglewood: he resides in non0abiding Nirvana
Stim Morane: Fael, is there a particular aspect that you’d like us to focus on?
Faenik loves wells!
Caspian Inglewood: thus should one view all of the fleeting world - a drop of dew, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a star at dawn, a phantom, and a dream
Fael Illyar: Before I started doing these explorations, I’d been playing around with a notion that there might be a greater mind in existence formed as a combination of all living things.
Moon Fargis takes out his watergun
Stim Morane: yes, those images are traditional, Caspian. Many are taken also from Nagarjuna’s similies.
Here I’m referring to traditional comparisons made between our ordinary realm of appearance and ephemeral of illusory things like “cloud castles” or lightning flashes. Nagarjuna used these in the beginning of his famous text the Mulamadhyamakakarikas. This text has proven to be one of the most important areas of my study with Tibetan masters since 1970.
Caspian Inglewood: ah
Caspian Inglewood: an indian Patriarch
Caspian Inglewood: you mean like universal consciousness Fael?
Stim Morane: yes, Fael, that is a common conception. Some traditions even stick to that way of characterizing it. But of course it’s tricky …
Isen Enzo: An ancestor…
Moon Fargis: hi sky
Stim Morane: Yes, Nagarjuna’s way of returning to basics of what the Buddha was emphasizing proved important for Zen too.
Though prior to the Chinese line of Ch’an/Zen Patriarchs, Nagarjuna was included in the list of Patriarchs, along with the Buddha and a few other Indian masters.
Caspian Inglewood: clear mind is the same for everyone
Caspian Inglewood: but many do not realize it is always there
Stim Morane: yes, that mind, which is not in fact mental, is the same.
Stim Morane: the word “mind” is in some ways useful, in other ways misleading
Stim Morane: anyway, Fael, are you saying you now see things differently?
Caspian Inglewood: katsu! pay attention!
Fael Illyar: I think there is some kind of a difference but I can’t quite put a finger on it.
Caspian Inglewood: a child only keeps Buddha mind
Caspian Inglewood: he only eats
Stim Morane: it’s important to value experiences and intuitions of the sort you describe, even though in some ways they are only pointers and can’t be read too literally as binding the way Reality is.
Moon Fargis: caspian: katsu! pay attention!
Stim Morane: OK.
Caspian Inglewood: /aho
Stim Morane: To those who haven entered in the last few minutes, Hi!
Stim Morane: So Fael, does your daily life-reality now seem dream-like sometimes?
In the above, I was hoping to get back to Fael’s image … in particular, I wanted to find out more about the feelings given along with it.
Caspian Inglewood: some kind of difference between what?
Fael Illyar: Well, the closest would be when I meditate while walking to work :)
Caspian Inglewood: the eminent Seng T’san once say, “the Great Way is not difficult. It is without picking and choosing.”
Stim Morane: Yes, Caspian. The challenge is to see what it means to be without “preferences”. There are ways in which such things are harmless, other ways in which they occlude the Way.
Caspian Inglewood: go straight
Caspian Inglewood: without preference only means, “how do i help all beings?”
Stim Morane: even helping can be framed in a way that is tainted by grasping. It’s important to see one’s own mind clearly re this.
Faenik: indeed?
Caspian Inglewood: if you check always
Bertrum Quan: When considering “Mind” can we also discuss both it’s oneness with “Body” but also an entity much larger?
Caspian Inglewood: you no help
Caspian Inglewood: sometime put down checking mind
Caspian Inglewood: otherwise, always in doubt
Stim Morane: there are several topics running here …
Obviously I wasn’t successful in following through on Fael’s question.
Moon Fargis: ohyes
Stim Morane: Bertrum, would you like to expand on your comment?
Bertrum Quan: I was responding to the question you posed to Fael and her answer converning meditating while going to work.
Caspian Inglewood: not 1 not 2
Stim Morane: yes, the unity involved here is unique. Completely beyond the ordinary, completely ordinary.
Caspian Inglewood: one thing controls your body
Bertrum Quan: The concept of Mind is certainly one with the body and meditating whilde walking to work would create an awareness of both…
Caspian Inglewood: it is not dependent on life and death
Caspian Inglewood: your body has life and death, but your true self
Caspian Inglewood: this one thing, is not dependent on life and death
Stim Morane: But we’re now alluding to something very advanced.
Stim Morane: Is this what you all want to discuss?
Caspian Inglewood: only don’t know
Caspian Inglewood: keep it 100%
Moon Fargis: caspian: katsu! pay attention!
Stim Morane: Fael and Bertrum, shall we talk more about the experience Fael mentioned?
Caspian Inglewood: ah, someone is very important
Bertrum Quan: Yes
Caspian Inglewood: cannot take own medicine
Stim Morane: Please proceed.
Moon Fargis: caspian: didnt stand up.. you just where to slow :)
Caspian Inglewood: you think my statement now changes?
Moon Fargis: caspian: do you think it should ?
Bertrum Quan: The Mind/Body connection seems to be at the heart of seeing (or not seeing)
Caspian Inglewood: ty Fargis
Caspian Inglewood: for showing me the way
Stim Morane: that’s interesting. Please add more, Bertrum.
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Caspian Inglewood: 10,000 words
Caspian Inglewood: no words
Caspian Inglewood: are they the same or different Fargis-san?
Bertrum Quan: It seems to me the nature of our physical being provides us with many distractions…
Moon Fargis: caspian: lets talk about that after pab ok? its hard to keep up 2 topics
Bertrum Quan: physical
Caspian Inglewood: katsu! pay attention!
Caspian Inglewood: Fargis
Caspian Inglewood: stay on topic
Faenik: why not?
Fael Illyar: Yes, it certainly does distract from the meditation. I don’t feel my meditation when walking is as deep as when I just sit.
Dartman Baroque: Moon, please behave .)
Moon Fargis: ahh this snap grid is awfull :)
Stim Morane: In the awakeness that we have started to allude to, this is something we “embodied beings” have to deal with. Traditionally it involves coming to terms with the way reality is given through the senses, and ordinary mind.
Stim Morane: so the things you’re mentioning are central to finding what freedom might really be.
Stim Morane: we can’t just ignore them.
Stim Morane: And the integration that Bertrum mentioned is part of the resolution, because it is related to the original “Mind’s” nature.
Fael Illyar: original “mind’s” nature?
Stim Morane: This is just a phrase.
Stim Morane: You could use others.
Bertrum Quan: I like your phrase–ordinary mind…
Bertrum Quan: It is the starting point…
Stim Morane: the point is we are, as you intuited, within an open, original, authentic Knowing
Stim Morane: this is to be distinguished from ordinary mind, but not cut off from it, because there is no real separation.
Bertrum Quan: Yes
Stim Morane: as some of the texts Caspian is quoting from say, “it would be a mistake to confuse the two minds, but it would also be a mistake to look for the higher mind anywhere else than in the ordinary one”
Isen Enzo: Please excuse me…..
Stim Morane: Bye, Isen.
Fael Illyar: Bye Isen
Bertrum Quan: bye isen
Stim Morane: Fael, it’s tricky to find the right way to view the vision you had, where it seems we all combine to contribute to the higher mind … this is what I meant re respecting it wo taking it too literally.
Stim Morane: Your intuition was tapping into something that has always been So.
Stim Morane: We cannot amalgamate into forming It.
Stim Morane: But it is not separate from us either, or alien to us.
Fael Illyar: I had some trouble putting it to words and I wasn’t very happy with the result but couldn’t put it better either.
Actually I very much like Fael’s articulation, and regret giving any impression to the contrary.
Moon Fargis: hi heff
Caspian Inglewood: Konnichi wa Okelly-san
Stim Morane: It was as good as it gets …
Heff Okelly: hi Moon
Stim Morane: we can’t expect too much from words
Stim Morane: Hi Heff
Heff Okelly: hi stim
Fael Illyar: Hi Heff
Faenik: indeed?
Heff Okelly: hello Fael
Sky Szimmer: Stim, isn’t the perpectuation of the ordinary mind the tendency to stick to the body/mind condition. too much memory, idenification with the body causes the self to form
Stim Morane: Sorry, what was that word?
Stim Morane: Perpectuation?
Sky Szimmer: strike that
Moon Fargis throws some water over his burning dict
Stim Morane: anyway Sky, I suspect that my answer is going to be this: we ordinarily attach to the mind and body without really participating in them.
Stim Morane: We cannot fully appreciate either samsara or nirvana because we are not fully present to what we have become embedded in.
Bertrum Quan: It is a duality…literally
Stim Morane: The body is thus either bondage or a door to freedom, depending. But we don’t have to cut something away or become indifferent to it
Stim Morane: Participation is not attachment or embedding.
Dartman Baroque: Excuse me. I need to go.
Stim Morane: This makes the bodhisattva project Caspian mentioned possible.
Moon Fargis: oksee you soon dart
Stim Morane: Bye Dartman
Moon Fargis: -s
Faenik: why not?
Fael Illyar: Bye Dart :)
Dartman Baroque: Thanks, and bye :)
Stim Morane: We need to learn the difference between participation or appreciation, vs heedless attachment and identification
Sky Szimmer: so much of it is heedless
Stim Morane: yes, but even heedlessness can be something to participate in, to respect
Stim Morane: It too retains a connection to what Fael sensed
Sky Szimmer: don’t understand
Stim Morane: we can’t be picky.
Stim Morane: Everything counts.
Sky Szimmer: yes.
Sky Szimmer: but sometimes it is hard to see the heedlessness as we are conditioned since the memory started
Stim Morane: The real nature of heedlessness is awakeness.
Stim Morane: but the difficulty you mention, Sky, is definitely there … a challenge for us all.
Sky Szimmer: without seeing the heedlessness, do we have a chance?
Here Sky has brought up a line of inquiry that I hope we can continue exploring in future sessions.
Stim Morane: The continuity of what Pema wants to call Being cannot be found without addressing what we’re discussing today.
Bertrum Quan: I wondered if we can discuss its connection to the concept of dream…
Stim Morane: If we do not see heedlessness, we have chances on other levels: do the right thing re actions, take responsibility for our mistakes, etc
Faenik: why not?
Stim Morane: So there we don’t see heedlessness, but we see the consequences of it in our actions.
Stim Morane: Gradually we can work back to the root ignorance
Stim Morane: start where you can
Stim Morane: Much is being said here today that I have not responded to adequately … my arms are badly injured and I can’t type quickly at all.
Fael Illyar: That’s ok, what you’ve said has been very interesting :)
Stim Morane: I’m basically saying, stay with the direct experience of your dream, don’t go too far into inferences based on it.
Stim Morane: Try to retrieve the directly felt essence of it
Sky Szimmer: Thanks Stim and everyone. Must go. Bye.
Stim Morane: Sure. Bye SKy!
Bertrum Quan: bye
Fael Illyar: Bye Sky :)
Stim Morane: Bertrum, I know I have not addressed some of your comments much …
Fael Illyar: I’ve found that I discover something new every time I forget to want to discover more :)
Stim Morane: But I agree with them.
Bertrum Quan: It has been interesting… we covered a lot of ground.
Stim Morane: Yes, Fael. It’s a strange fact that that “wanting” gets in the way. This is a truism nowadays, but people still don’t really heed the point behind it.
Stim Morane: The next step is to actually deal with it.
Stim Morane: To see it, then to let go.
Fael Illyar: I’ve long had short lived wants in a way.
Stim Morane: Even a very advanced contemplative still works with that. And the best way to “DEAL” is also to “not”.
Fael Illyar: I might want something for a while but it fades out fast.
Stim Morane: Yes. Even the wanting itself is within the original clear mind.
Stim Morane: So there is no need to expunge it.
Faenik: ah :)
Caspian Inglewood: pardon me
Stim Morane: That would be an endless project
Caspian Inglewood: I am late for an appointment
Caspian Inglewood: I must step out
Fael Illyar: Bye Caspian
Stim Morane: Yes, thank you, Caspian.
Caspian Inglewood: sayonara
Fael Illyar: Although, I also found the opposite on a couple of occasions
Moon Fargis: sorry i where so quiet but i had som conversation with caspian going on
Stim Morane: I need to leave for a second. BRB
Fael Illyar: Ah, that’s why he was so quiet :)
Moon Fargis: so i think i misses the whole opic
Moon Fargis: +t
Fael Illyar: Near the beginning of when I started meditating, I got into deep meditation the first time.
Stim Morane: Back
Stim Morane: Yes, that is not uncommon.
Stim Morane: I call such things “harbinger experiences” …
This phrase is just another bit of my peculiar language, and might perhaps be confusing, but the point is insights come quickly at first, perhaps not to be repeated for years or even decades.
Stim Morane: it happens because one’s energy is excited by the new activity, and higher capacities can be triggered … usually only briefly.
Fael Illyar: after that, I found I was hesitant to get back there.
Stim Morane: we tend to drop back to a more “bogged down” level
Moon Fargis: fael: maybe you also tryd to go back there wich mostly never works:)
Bertrum Quan: Can you describe deep meditation…
Fael Illyar: well, after I found I wanted to get back there again, I did get back there.
Stim Morane: yes, “trying to repeat” is a classic tray
Stim Morane: *trap
Faenik loves wells!
Stim Morane: an advanced contemplative is one who does not seek to be advanced at all
Stim Morane: or anything, for that matter.
Fael Illyar: took some puzzling on how to throw the want out of the way first.
Stim Morane: yes
Stim Morane: but again, seeing it with compassionate direct acceptance is all that’s needed
Stim Morane: acceptance is very different from heedlessness or attachment
Fael Illyar: acceptance as in “things are what they are”?
Stim Morane: This is a topic in itself.
Stim Morane: Could we pick this up another time?
Fael Illyar: sure :)
Stim Morane: Anyway, it’s easy to say “yes”
Moon Fargis: yes
Moon Fargis: and levitate
Stim Morane: But this still leaves things a little vague, because “what things are” is tricky.
Stim Morane: Yes, and levitate.
Stim Morane: !
Stim Morane: I need to go, but I hope we can talk again.
Bertrum Quan: Just a point of definition—I’m not sure I understand “deep” meditation
Moon Fargis: sure see you soon stim
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Stim, it was a nice session today :)
Moon Fargis: bertrum: hmm you think there must be something like aflat meditation then ?
Stim Morane: Fael and Bertrum, would you like to stay on? If so, then your log should be retained for Pema.
Fael Illyar: I always retain my logs.
Here is the remainder of the chat log, provided by Fael.
Bertrum Quan: Fael, I was question your term “deep” meditation…
Bertrum Quan: questioning
Fael Illyar: Yes?
Fael Illyar: It’s a bit hard to define.
Fael Illyar: but the difference between that and what I had before was like night and day
Bertrum Quan: in what way(s)?
Fael Illyar: I think the best way I could liken it to is like turning off the lights from the room.
Fael Illyar: where the room is your mind
Faenik: why not?
Bertrum Quan: Later you said, you had trouble returning…
Fael Illyar: to that state, yes
Fael Illyar: I was reluctant to, at first.
Moon Fargis: bertrum: imagine your body and yourself dissovles with the surrounding and everything. this would be a deep one, a not so deep one is just you steering t a wall
Moon Fargis: +a
Fael Illyar: I’m not quite sure if I’ve been that deep though
Fael Illyar: I didn’t notice dissovling.
Moon Fargis: ah ok then.. ot sooo much dissolvin then :)
Fael Illyar: but I did have less perception of my body
Bertrum Quan: sleep without dream…
Fael Illyar: you might be able to describe it like that, yes
Bertrum Quan: I think we shoulod raise that concept with Stim and Pema. I would like to hear their response…
Bertrum Quan: should
Fael Illyar: Yes, probably :)
Bertrum Quan: Thank you both for staying on. I need to log off now.
Moon Fargis: ok see you later bert
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Bertrum :)
Bertrum Quan: bye Fael and Moon
