2008.09.07 08:00 - A discussion on guidelines

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    It was Sunday and time for another Guardian meeting in the Hall of Appearance. I (Storm Nordwind) am posting the chat log with no comments. There are three changes however:

    1. The final version of the notecard distributed by genesis is included.
    2. The notecard distributed by Pia is included.
    3. A passing visitor's name is deleted as we did not have time to ascertain permission to publish.
    Adams Rubble: Hello Gen :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Storm :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Gen and Storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hi everyone
    quen Oh: hello Storm
    genesis Zhangsun: Hello All!
    Storm Nordwind: Please let me pass on apologies from Pema
    quen Oh: and hi genesis
    Pia Iger: the low ceilings on two sides are quite pressing
    Storm Nordwind: Pema will not be coming. He is exhausted.
    quen Oh: I am sorry for Pema..
    Pia Iger: sorry to hear that.
    Pia Iger: he must be worn out.
    Storm Nordwind: He does work very hard indeed.
    Storm Nordwind: And it is midnight for him
    Maxine Walden: can appreciate that, glad he will rest
    Adams Rubble: Yes he does
    Pia Iger: Maxine, you are half standing on my screen.
    Storm Nordwind: Mine too
    quen Oh: mine too
    Maxine Walden: ah, thanks
    quen Oh: ah way better
    quen Oh: thats must feel much more relaxing..
    Storm Nordwind: Very nice :)
    Maxine Walden: that's better
    Maxine Walden: am I the only one with some audio breakup?
    quen Oh: break up?
    Adams Rubble: I don't have any audio on so I have no break up
    Storm Nordwind: What is breaking up - chimes? water perhaps?
    quen Oh: me neither...
    Adams Rubble: Hello Riddle :)
    quen Oh: hello RIddle
    Maxine Walden: intermittent human sounds, intense,
    Riddle Sideways: good morning all
    Maxine Walden: hi Riddle
    Adams Rubble: Hello again Neela :)
    Storm Nordwind: That was Gen - she has been on voice and forgot to switch off
    genesis Zhangsun: sorry
    genesis Zhangsun: its off now :)
    Neela Blaisdale: Hello everyone
    Maxine Walden: thanks
    quen Oh: hi Neela
    Storm Nordwind: There's no agenda for today. And Pema has every confidence that we can manage ourselves. Perhaps if someone has a topic they can raise it?
    genesis Zhangsun: Well Adams and I made a Guardian's Guidelines and Tips page
    Storm Nordwind: Excellent - thank you!
    quen Oh: thank you
    Riddle Sideways: I better go read it :) thank you
    genesis Zhangsun: Did everyone receive it?
    quen Oh nods
    genesis Zhangsun: The idea is that the Guidelines part will be static
    genesis Zhangsun: and the tips part will be something to which everyone can contribute and add on to over time
    Storm Nordwind: Did you put it on the Wiki. I can't find it
    genesis Zhangsun: no sorry
    genesis Zhangsun: I wanted to get it approved first
    Storm Nordwind nods
    genesis Zhangsun: so this is the time for critique!
    Neela Blaisdale: Ty Gen
    Maxine Walden: just read it and it captures what we have been considering in a lovely way, I think
    Pia Iger: Quen is the new guardian, we can hear from her if it is clear for her
    Storm Nordwind: Was it sent by email? I cannot find anything with guidelines as a search word - sorry!
    quen Oh: it is clear, and besides I can be a new guardian if you all agree of course
    quen Oh: I have only a question about the PaB resources, just to be sure if I have them all...
    Maxine Walden: gen just gave it as a notecard I think, Storm, just now
    genesis Zhangsun gave you Guidelines for Meetings.
    Storm Nordwind: Got it now thank you
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Riddle Sideways: thank you, the wording is just right
    Neela Blaisdale: This very comprehensive and very much reflects the group spirit zi think. Great work Adams and Gen
    quen Oh smiles, the text is nice
    Pia Iger: Quen, most info you can find on our website, http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    genesis Zhangsun: Thanks
    Storm Nordwind: Very well done Saki. It's about right.
    quen Oh: thank you, this one I had indeed
    quen Oh: not sure if there were others too
    quen Oh: have another one too
    quen Oh: http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/hin...ying-as-being/
    genesis Zhangsun gave you Guidelines for Guardians.
    Adams Rubble: The second version is the edited version
    quen Oh: ah
    genesis Zhangsun: I just realized I sent you all an unedited version, please accept the edit
    genesis Zhangsun: there are some small differences
    genesis Zhangsun: but good to have the complete version

    This is the notecard genesis then handed round:

    Guidelines for meetings

    This is an open group discussion about topics related to the method of Playing as Being, meditation in general, mindfulness and exploration of reality. We welcome people with many different backgrounds and interests to visit the group. In a Play as Being group discussion, respect for each person’s feelings and opinions benefits everyone, and allows each person a chance to say what is on their mind. Lightheartedness is a welcome part of this group’s experience, but it should not cut off someone who is trying to speak. Repeated distractions from the chosen topics of discussion, meanness, vulgarity, or violent language are not constructive to the group's purpose. For the group to function cohesively and effectively, such distractions cannot be tolerated.

    While our community provides support for its members, through the strong bonds and friendships naturally arising out of our meetings, we are not a therapy group. While we understand that our discussions and exercises can be deeply life changing, we are in no way advocating nor prescribing modes of conduct which would be destabilizing and/or harmful to members and those around them. We recommend that individuals who experience persistent anxieties or other forms of mental disturbances get professional help. No members, including Pema Pera (Piet Hut) and the Kira Team, claim to take responsibility for the psychological well being of other members. We are a democratic peer group of friends working in the spirit of the open source movement and of science in general.

    Tips for Guardians

    We arrive promptly and introduce ourselves to newcomers
    We invite new people to introduce themselves.
    We direct new people to PaB resources, meeting times, and when it appears appropriate, to spend some time explaining PaB practices and the community.
    While we do not encourage the Guardian “on duty” to control meeting style or content, we do recommend that if the Guardian feels that the topics of discussion have diverged significantly from those embraced by our community that they feel free to shift the topic or to address this directly when necessary.
    We respect spiritual beliefs and definitions of reality that fall outside the mainstream material view.
    We respect a wide diversity of choices and perspectives, even when we disagree, we don’t judge or invalidate other people’s experiences.
    We try not to interrupt.
    People who are quiet are encouraged to speak, and those who talk a lot are encouraged to give others a chance. We keep in mind that others might be waiting to speak.
    Silence is also always ok.
    As a community, we try to listen closely to the speaker while also having a feeling for the needs of the whole group.
    We recognize that overcoming oppression helps everyone’s liberation; we challenge racism, classism, sexism, ageism, homophobia, and other forms of prejudice.
    We are motivated to educate each other in the spirit of solidarity, and hold others accountable for their behavior without criticizing who they are as people.
    We try to notice common themes and roles that we play out together as a group.
    To create trust we respect confidentiality.
    As a community, we try  to listen closely to the speaker while also having a feeling for the needs of the whole group.
    We recognize that overcoming oppression helps everyone’s liberation; we challenge racism, classism, sexism, ageism, homophobia, and other forms of prejudice.
    We are motivated to educate each other in the spirit of solidarity, and hold others accountable for their behavior without criticizing who they are as people.
    We try to notice common themes and roles that we play out together as a group.
    To create trust we respect confidentiality.

    Storm Nordwind: One comment...
    genesis Zhangsun gave you Guidelines for Guardians.
    Storm Nordwind: ..."People who are quiet are encouraged to speak"
    genesis Zhangsun: Yes Storm does this sound too strong?
    Storm Nordwind: This is not good for people who want to be wallflowers. We should instead give them the opportunity. Not encouraging them
    Pia Iger: agree w/ storm
    Storm Nordwind: If they feel too 'encouraged' they may go and not return!
    Adams Rubble: Maybe it should say are "encouraged to speak if they wish"
    Storm Nordwind: yes
    genesis Zhangsun: yes thats a good modification
    Maxine Walden: agree
    Adams Rubble: The second part will be able to be edited by any of the guardians, right Gen
    genesis Zhangsun: Yes that is the idea
    genesis Zhangsun: it will be possible to edit and add on the wiki
    Storm Nordwind: There is a repeated section
    genesis Zhangsun: so that as we continue to grow and find new ways of doing things this page can change along with us
    genesis Zhangsun: Ah yes I see that Storm
    Storm Nordwind: after confidentiality
    genesis Zhangsun: Yes the last three are repeats
    genesis Zhangsun: yes everything after confidentiality
    genesis Zhangsun: will take this out
    genesis Zhangsun: sorry cut and paste into SL does some funny things apparently
    Storm Nordwind: What about tips on how to deal with ... er ... troublemakers?
    genesis Zhangsun: Ok
    genesis Zhangsun: like..
    Storm Nordwind: We have discussed this together before with named individuals
    genesis Zhangsun: right such as talk first, warning, eject and ban?
    Storm Nordwind: But in extreme cases, guardians need to be familiar with eject procedures
    genesis Zhangsun: was this the order?
    Storm Nordwind: yes
    quen Oh: do you have a lot of troublemakers?
    Storm Nordwind: very rare
    Pia Iger: yes, pls list the how-to of eject/ban, just in case
    Adams Rubble: Yes, we probably should add that for the guardians
    Neela Blaisdale: Good idea to provide this info.Actually I have no idea about ejection
    genesis Zhangsun: ok
    genesis Zhangsun: sure
    Storm Nordwind: This may become more important when we move to the new discussion place with auto-logging as we are most exposed - deliberately so - to wanderers from the welcome area
    Adams Rubble: Although I think we are more likely to have repeated distractions from established people. New people seem to be handled with a polite suggestion
    quen Oh: you have people who repeatedly come back to frustrate the discussions?
    Pia Iger: can you say more about the distraction, Adams?
    Maxine Walden: on occasion, quen
    Adams Rubble: Well when we begin to talk about ejection, we are talking about someone who deliberately sets out to distract from the conversations
    Maxine Walden: some people are drawn to try to disturb others who seem settled or at peace with themselves and the group
    Adams Rubble: And also the person does not respond to the suggestion that they refrain from distracting
    Adams Rubble: It is different from people who just dash through the pavilion as newcomers seem to do
    quen Oh: does this person comment about why he/she is doing so?
    Maxine Walden: yes, some seem to feel entitled, as if they have the Truth
    Storm Nordwind: There are also other people whose needs are not addressed. They appear not to pick up what is discussed but they are still in the process of finding out what PaB has to offer, if anything, for them.
    quen Oh would love to have the Truth ;-)
    quen Oh nods, can imagine that Storm
    Adams Rubble: Neela and Quen, not to worry, (as Pema would say), this is very, very rare
    Adams Rubble: The worst that can happen is a session gets distracted
    quen Oh: no problem, we'll see what happens
    Maxine Walden: different ways to think about those who disturb, but some feel so envious they need to disturb those at peace; others feel a need to spread their version of the Truth
    Adams Rubble: yes Maxine
    genesis Zhangsun: "deliberate distraction" is a judgment call though v. violent or clearly offensive language is a bit easier to spot and narrower
    quen Oh: well that can offer interesting opportunities to challenge that Truth?
    Storm Nordwind: Another basic thing is that some are very new to Second life, and yet have to learn basic SL etiquette.
    genesis Zhangsun: I am just wondering how we as a group define "deliberate distraction" it can be quite broad
    Adams Rubble: yes Strom
    Adams Rubble: Do we need to define; we will know it when we see it
    genesis Zhangsun: famous words ;)
    quen Oh agrees, another important thing is to try perhaps via IM to find out why they are distracting?
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes I reme mber a discussion a few months ago about someone and I think it was never clear whether this was delierate, or a style/language issue or exactly what. So I agree can be unclear
    Pia Iger: yes, Quen, IM can be one tool
    quen Oh: in open chat you can perhaps do the same, if you do it very subtle
    Maxine Walden: in my experience those that need to disturb do not have a clear thought about why they are doing so; an IM might be useful, but the asker is not likely to get a clear response because the disturber is not thinking but acting
    zabuton_seiza red: llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
    Adams Rubble: Other guardians can help the GOC as a group did with me when I was trying to determine whether someone was being deliberate. Three people spoke up before I did (I was giving the benefit of the doubt)
    quen Oh: perhaps that can encourage the distractor to think, which could help?
    Pia Iger: Yes, Adams, I remember that session. It was handle quite well and subtly.
    quen Oh loves the benefit of the doubt
    Maxine Walden: and being asked a question only enrages the disturber. Might be better to offer limits instead. I see different ways of thinking about the situation
    Riddle Sideways: and I remember that though a few peoples feelings were hurt, the group as a whole benefited from the experience
    quen Oh: well it seems difficult to set a standard approach for these things, you have to see it happening in context to react... which is probably intuitively right
    Maxine Walden: One problem I have in these situations as the guardian is being able to think clearly, and that is where having other guardians around can be so helpful, supporting each other
    Adams Rubble: yes exactly Maxine
    Storm Nordwind: It is probably useful for guardians to have each other in their contact list. This means they can be called upon if online but not present.
    Pia Iger: nods.
    Maxine Walden: Adams, I think you and I tried to help each other in a couple of occasions
    Adams Rubble: A guardian might IM someone else present to ask for advice too. That happened at one session I atended
    Maxine Walden: yes, I think to IM others in the group at the time can be very helpful
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes easier to help when you are actually there I think
    quen Oh smiles seeing her extended friendslist...
    Adams Rubble: Unfortunately I have to leave early for family. Take care everyone :)
    quen Oh: bye Adams
    Riddle Sideways: bye Adams
    genesis Zhangsun: Thanks Adams for your input and work!
    genesis Zhangsun: Bye Adams :)
    Pia Iger: bye, Adams
    Adams Rubble: Thanks gen. Gen did most of the work everyone :)
    Adams Rubble: bye :)
    genesis Zhangsun: that is not true :)
    genesis Zhangsun: it was a joint effort
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye Adams
    genesis Zhangsun: perhaps the first step then should be to IM others in the group?
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes I think that makes sense Gen
    Pia Iger: btw, I made a very concise notecard if any guardians want a copy.
    Riddle Sideways: yes, I would like a copy
    Pia Iger: I gave to some new visitors and it seems work. they understand quickly.
    ***** ****: hello?
    Riddle Sideways: hi *****
    ***** ****: mind if I join you?
    Neela Blaisdale: Hello *****
    ***** ****: Hi Riddle
    ***** ****: Hi neela
    quen Oh: ah nice. I like to see that Pia?
    genesis Zhangsun: me too
    Neela Blaisdale: Can you send one Pia
    Pia Iger gave you playasbeing.
    Maxine Walden: thanks Pia
    genesis Zhangsun: This is wonderful Pia
    Neela Blaisdale: Nice Pia.
    Riddle Sideways: thanks pia, I never got around to making one myself
    quen Oh: nice pia

    This is the notecard that Pia handed round.

    Play as Being is an open ended exploration of reality.

    In real life, we have a basic practice of ‘drop what you have to see what you are’:

      -- - every 15 minutes or so, just spending roughly 9 seconds, dropping what you're doing, taking a good breath, letting things be open, and then resume your normal activities
     --- after wards,  write down a note of whatever comes up during the 9 seconds.

    Then we meet here Rieul (195,148,75).  four times per day (1 am, 7 am, 1 pm, and 7 pm SLT) to compare our notes and discuss our experience from doing 9 sec practice.

    Everyone is welcome to join our meeting.  

    You can find more on our website http://playasbeing.wik.is/

    or have a quick peek of our previous discussions at

    genesis Zhangsun: perhaps we could also add a link to the Guidelines and Tips page on the card for newcomers
    Pia Iger: of cause, we can also explain PaB in real time, But sometimes we are in middle of conversation, so it can help with notecards
    genesis Zhangsun: and make it an official practice to give newcomers this notecard?
    Neela Blaisdale: Might be nice to make it into a poster to have at the new site
    Storm Nordwind: Great. Not too long either! :)
    Riddle Sideways: yes, when do we start using the new place?
    Storm Nordwind: Pia - please add a landmark for the pavilion (and later the new place) in the notecard itself
    Storm Nordwind: We start using it when the autologging project is complete- there was delay
    Storm Nordwind: Assume next month
    Riddle Sideways: ok
    genesis Zhangsun: and a link to the Guidelines when we have that page ready
    Neela Blaisdale: Also would then explain the group even when we're not in a meeting, in case of a wanderer
    genesis Zhangsun: then people will know right away what is acceptable
    Maxine Walden: I need to go as well, very nice to see everyone. Bye for now
    genesis Zhangsun: bye Maxine!
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye Maxine
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Maxine
    ***** ****: Sorry I crashed your meeting
    Riddle Sideways: bye Maxine
    quen Oh: bye Maxine
    Pia Iger: oh, *****, this is our guardian meeting for Play as Being group.
    ***** ****: I'm new to second life and found a reference to Zen
    genesis Zhangsun: Perhaps we should give ***** a newcomers notecard?
    genesis Zhangsun: ;)
    Neela Blaisdale: Welcome *****, I see your a week old!
    ***** ****: yea pretty new
    Pia Iger: you can come to our regular meeting as mentioned on the card.
    ***** ****: thanks
    ***** ****: i'm not very good yet with second life
    Storm Nordwind: *****, there are indeed many Buddhists sites around here, in Rieul region and Mieum next door. Some are Zen.
    ***** ****: i used to use there.com
    ***** ****: thanks
    ***** ****: is this a buddhist group?
    Storm Nordwind: Not as such.
    Storm Nordwind: Though we have some Buddhists in it
    ***** ****: more open spiritually?
    Pia Iger: yes.
    ***** ****: well i must go
    Neela Blaisdale: We explore ways of Being
    ***** ****: nice to meet everyone
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye *****
    ***** ****: bye
    Riddle Sideways: bye *****
    quen Oh: bye *****, good luck in SL!
    Pia Iger: Is there anything else?
    Riddle Sideways: see twas nice to have a card to hand to *****
    Neela Blaisdale: :)
    Pia Iger: You can all modify it as you need.
    Pia Iger: I think the meeting went well.
    Storm Nordwind nods in agreement
    quen Oh smiles
    Riddle Sideways nods
    Riddle Sideways: thank you all
    genesis Zhangsun: thanks!
    Storm Nordwind: I will post the meeting to the Wiki complete with notecard contents
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes good meeting, have a good day everyone
    Pia Iger: bye, everyone.
    genesis Zhangsun: Yes and I will get the Guidelines page up on the wiki this week
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Pia
    genesis Zhangsun: so feel free to add!
    quen Oh: thank you all, I find it a nice first meeting :-)
    genesis Zhangsun: Bye Everyone!
    quen Oh: bye Pia
    quen Oh: bye genesis
    genesis Zhangsun: welcome quen and glad to meet you!
    Riddle Sideways: bye
    quen Oh: liekewise genesis
    quen Oh: bye everyone, nice to meet you!
    Pia Iger: gen, nice work.
    genesis Zhangsun: same to you Pia
    genesis Zhangsun: and thanks again for your help with the PaB gems
    Storm Nordwind agrees
    Pia Iger: you are welcome :-)
    Pia Iger: bye..
    genesis Zhangsun: bye
    genesis Zhangsun: See you later Storm!
    Storm Nordwind: Sure. Please take care of the cold!
    Storm Nordwind: Or rather yourself!
    quen Oh waves before leaving, bye all

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