2008.09.22 07:00 - Grinning Gratefully

I, Pema, arrived at the pavilion at 7 am SLT, to find three friends already gathered.

Pema Pera: Hi Adams, Adelene, Gaya!
Autologging: The recorder is ON, this session is being logged for PaB!
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adelene Dawner: 'lo :)
Pema Pera: ah, an autologging experiment!
Adams Rubble: Hello pema :)
Pema Pera: very severe lag for me . . . .
Adelene Dawner: mmm.
Adams Rubble: :(
Gaya Ethaniel pouts
Adams Rubble: Hello Corvi :)
Adams Rubble: And hello gaya and Adelene, of course :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Pema Pera: Hi Corvi!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hello, all
Faenik: なるほど^^
Adelene Dawner: ok, that might help with the lag, I hope...
Pema Pera: what might help? (perhaps some lines are dropped for me; happens sometimes)
Adelene Dawner: I deactivated my part of the autologging prototype.
Pema Pera: ah!
Adelene Dawner: though if that *does* help with the lag, we've got other problems. :P
Adams Rubble: Hi Fael :)
Adelene Dawner: (doesn't seem to be helping, tho)
Fael Illyar: Hi Corvi, Adams, Gaya, Pema, Adelene :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adelene Dawner: hi Fael
Pema Pera: I never know what part of lag is SL, or my wireless cell phone based internet connection, or the fact that Japan is far away from Linden Lab . . . .
Pema Pera: Hi Fael!
Adelene Dawner: I have some lag too, Pem, so part of it is SL.
Fael Illyar: SL has been very laggy lately
Pema Pera: Nice to see so many of us here early in the morning!
Adelene Dawner: I'm actually going to need to leave early...
Adams Rubble: Yes me too
Pema Pera: Well, I'll be leaving "late", perhaps pretty soon too :) It is past 11 pm here

Time to get back to Play as Being and related topics.

Pema Pera: Does anyone have a topic they'd like to bring up?
Adams Rubble: I had a reaction to your comment yesterday morning about birth and death being an illusion and struggled with it all day yesterday
Adams Rubble: I know that Nisargadatta made the same statement
Adams Rubble: but he also said we should be looking for the person that was there at birth and will be there at death
Pema Pera: The word illusion needs to be unpacked though, and seen in the way it is meant in which context . . . . so we'll have to roll up our sleeves :)
Adams Rubble: Last night, by coincidence, Avastu was at the 19:00 session
Gaya Ethaniel rolls up her sode
Faenik: why not?
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: glad to hear that, Adams!
Adams Rubble: I have a big blog entry this morning and was trying to email you but gmail isn't working
Pema Pera: I think we all missed him
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Pema Pera: I'm happy to read it
Adams Rubble: I put the question to him and he actually gave me the answer but I missed it then
Fael Illyar: Oh, interesting conversation approaching it seems :)
Pema Pera: if everything is an illusion, we still have to deal with each illusion in the proper way
Pema Pera: so seeing that it is an illusion can be helpful but is not the whole story
Pema Pera: what did you come up with Adams?
Adams Rubble: Well the question led me to another one which was my main concern
Adams Rubble: Obviously the "self" is an illusion which is what Avastu said
Adams Rubble: Then this person, this real person, who we have been calling Z self, is that person an illusion?
Adams Rubble: I have gotten myself into molecules and atoms and that they make up the appearance of the real person'
Pema Pera: ultimately everything is -- but again, what does that mean, in practice?
Adams Rubble: but the real person was born and will die
Pema Pera: if we really want to be radical, and start at the end, we can start with time being an illusion
Pema Pera: and that pulls out the carpet out from under just about anything
Corvuscorva Nightfire: nono...please can we stay with self? or will the time bit explain the self bit?
Pema Pera: they are related
Faenik: could be
Pema Pera: it seems simpler to start with the self, but then the explanation is more complicated
Pema Pera: we can go either way :)
Adelene Dawner: The time bit answers that question, Corvus, but it'll be interesting watching Pema trying to put it into words.

I was happy to do so, but also didn't want to interrupt other flows of thought.

Adams Rubble: I have determined that I am both
Adams Rubble: My other issue is who am I am I the z-self or the real self
Pema Pera: all of them, in some sense, Adams
Pema Pera: depending on your identifications
Pema Pera: really most radically you are Being, and everything else is what you have -- but we may not be quite ready to take that leap yet
Pema Pera: certainly as long as we stick to past-present-future we are not yet ready for that
Pema Pera: (my computer is freezing up half the time, and I have a feeling that I may be missing lines that others speak in the mean time -- Fael, can you later email me the chat log, so that I can at least check afterwards?)
Adams Rubble: For the z-self then, is birth and death a distraction rather than an illusion?
Fael Illyar: sure :)
Pema Pera: tnx!
Pema Pera: no simple answer possible, Adams . . . . .
Pema Pera: you can identify with your avatar
Pema Pera: or your **** person
Fael Illyar: birth and death are concepts.
Pema Pera: or Z self
Pema Pera: or see through all of them and be Being
Pema Pera: though the latter is Being seeing Being
Faenik loves wells!
Pema Pera: judgments like "distraction" and "illusion" are just that, judgments
Pema Pera: but we can have a very meaningful conversation nonetheless when we choose to meet at a particular level of identification
Gaya Ethaniel: selves are simply 'vessels'
Pema Pera: if we speak on two different levels, confusion will abound :)
Pema Pera: but if we agree on the framework, we can learn a lot
Pema Pera: the framework, identification, coordinate system, whatever we like to call it
Pema Pera: which one do you prefer, for now?
Faenik: なるほど^^
Adams Rubble: Sorry, had to step out for a second. It seems that I may need some framework
Pema Pera: we all do, if nothing else to express ourselves
Pema Pera: but if we begin to drop time -- or at least consider the possibility -- then the whole notion of framework because far more subtle, thin, light
Pema Pera: each moment carries a freedom which is literally out of this world :)

A discussion about what we can know.

Fael Illyar: How do you know that, birth and death actually are something other than just purely your imagination?
Adams Rubble: We see other people born;we see other people die
Adelene Dawner: How do you know that *right now* is something other than just purely your imagination? ^.^
Gaya Ethaniel: That depends on one's identification with 'selves' Fael
Fael Illyar: you see something you call birth and death happen to others. Do you even know what they are?
Adams Rubble: Well no one was there before the birth and then there was this cute little person
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Fael Illyar: how do you know no-one was there?
Adams Rubble: And then someone is no longer there except in our memories
Gaya Ethaniel: our or your memories Adams?
Adams Rubble: I think we have all experienced death. I was talking about my memory but I asume others feel the same loss when someone dies
Adelene Dawner: We've all *observed* death. I doubt any of us have *experienced* it.
Adams Rubble: Yes, Adelene, poor phrasing on my aprt :)
Adelene Dawner: Relevant difference. Observing something gives much less awareness of its true nature.
Fael Illyar: also the same question for death part, how do you know they're no longer there? (and where is this there?)
Adams Rubble: To me those are semantic questions that don;t help me understand myself
Adams Rubble: I can't answer any of them
Gaya Ethaniel: Me neither
Adams Rubble: I can only observe
Fael Illyar: Yes, exactly. You're assuming the answers. That's the illusion.
Adelene Dawner: Gotta jet, folks. I may be back before the end of the session, so I'll leave my av here.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Faenik: なるほど^^
Adams Rubble: bye Adelene

Meanwhile, I had crashed. I came back in, and Fael sent me the missing pieces later.

Fael Illyar: wb Pema :)
Gaya Ethaniel: wb Pema
Corvuscorva Nightfire: arghhh...there are alot of questions here...all of which seem important.
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Adams Rubble: Yes Corvi
Pema Pera: hi again!
Adams Rubble: I think that is why we need a framework so we are discussing the same thing
Adams Rubble: wb Pema
Pema Pera: yes, we may want to build up something over time, Adams
Pema Pera: either on the wiki or through email or both (sorry, my computer freezes up 3/4 of the time now (>_<)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: how about some outside reading material?
Gaya Ethaniel: aww...
Faenik: indeed?
Adams Rubble: That is a nuissance
Gaya Ethaniel: I essentially see 'bodies' as open vessels that 'receive' Being... in relation to birth and death. Not sure if this explains a bit
Pema Pera: I think we can use outside material for background, but we can make up our own core material
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...ok.
Pema Pera: The problem with starting with outside material is that there are literally hundreds of starting points
Adams Rubble: I see my existence as transitory
Pema Pera: and it is nice to be free from all of them
Gaya Ethaniel: my => ***'s?
Pema Pera: what do you mean, Gaya?
Pema Pera: ah, Adam's ***!
Pema Pera: got it :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Adams: I see my existence as transitory. Did you mean my as ***'s? Adams
Pema Pera: part of Adams' vocabulary :-)

In Adams' blog, **** stands for the name of Adams' typist, the RL person behind the keyboard.

Adams Rubble: I mean Adams, *** and Z-self
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: Ah all selves
Pema Pera: Adams, can you imagine what it could be for time not to exist?
Adams Rubble: No, not yet but I have come close once in a while
Pema Pera: can you say something about coming close?
Adams Rubble: Not at the moment :)
Fael Illyar: what is this "there" we come to and what is that "there" we go to?
Adams Rubble: I know I have felt it somewhere recently
Faenik: indeed?
Fael Illyar: and how do you know they differ?
Gaya Ethaniel: Don't know
Pema Pera: (question for Adams, Fael?)
Fael Illyar: yes, mostly
Adams Rubble looking for the word "there"
Fael Illyar: or that there is a "there" :)
Adams Rubble: Could you tell me what i said Fael?
Fael Illyar: (continuing what I said before)
Gaya Ethaniel: Time is related to "there" I suppose
Fael Illyar: Yes
Faenik: why not?
Adams Rubble: I am very confused about your point Fael
Pema Pera is not quite sure either which "there" is being refered to
Gaya Ethaniel: Birth and death Adams how you have 'observe'
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Fael Illyar is trying to show how birth and death are illusion.
Adams Rubble: Well they are for the self
Adams Rubble: But we can not pretend that our lives are not transitory
Pema Pera: unless we are willing to consider that time is an illusion
Pema Pera: since then transitoriness becomes impossible
Pema Pera: there is no time "carrier" that will give us transitoriness
Adams Rubble is missing something
Pema Pera: but we are then no longer we, and life is no longer life as we know it :)
Adams Rubble: ah
Pema Pera: if time exists, then, yes, we are transitory
Faenik: why not?
Adams Rubble: the missing link
Pema Pera: but a movie character is transitory with respect to the story of the movie
Adams Rubble: that we become not we
Pema Pera: but the movie character does not really "die"
Pema Pera: cannot even "die"
Pema Pera: what would that mean?
Pema Pera: what could that mean?
Gaya Ethaniel: Appearance of vessels change but not what IS
Pema Pera: yes, a play of appearance . . . .
Pema Pera: and time, the sense of time moving, is part of what appears . . . .
Pema Pera: and you can choose to buy into it, or refuse to do so
Pema Pera: if you buy into it then you have transitoriness

Back to the relative realm:

Pema Pera: alas, with all this talk about no time, the coffee shop I am in is closing now, so within the framework of "coffee shops in Kyoto closing", I'll have to leave SL :-)
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
Adams Rubble: Can an (art) historian forget about time (my movie?)
Fael Illyar grins.
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Pema
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Pema Pera: I look forward to continue (hehe) this conversation -- isn't it delightful, these paradoxes? But they are not really paradoxes
Fael Illyar: so our transitory meeting is about to come to an end :)
Pema Pera: I'd love to talk more abou that
Adams Rubble: Good niht Pema
Pema Pera: it seems so, Fael, but only seems so
Pema Pera: good day everybody!
Fael Illyar: See you later Pema :)
Pema Pera: see ya'll soon again
Corvuscorva Nightfire throws up her hands in consternation...then waves bye.

:) From here on, I will not comment further, since I was gone; the chat log here was sent to me later by Fael; thanks, Fael!

Fael Illyar: Adams, where does this meeting go when it ends?
Faenik: なるほど^^
Adams Rubble: into the Wiki
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahahhah
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you for the conversation. Good day.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Corvuscorva Nightfire: burial ground for conversation?
Fael Illyar: a log of this meeting goes to the wiki. Not the meeting itself.
Adams Rubble: bye Gaya
Adelene Dawner: I'm back... bye all...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye Gaya
Fael Illyar: See you later Gaya :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: no wait, Adelene
Adams Rubble: bye everyone
Corvuscorva Nightfire: unless you must go..?
Adelene Dawner chuckles. "Thought you'd say that , Corvus. I can stay for a while."
Fael Illyar: I can stay as well
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles warmly.."thanks."
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Fael, much appreciated.
Corvuscorva Nightfire tries to focus her own thoughts on self as related to illusion...
Adelene Dawner: Pema's explanations are useful, but sometimes he starts from too complicated a perspective. :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire nodsnods.
Fael Illyar: try comparing this meeting to self, perhaps?
Fael Illyar: there is a birth (beginning) and death (end)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but..death and birth...
Adelene Dawner: even more basic...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't know..I am not focused on that part...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: more I'm curious about what is now.
Adelene Dawner: Corvus, have you ever caught youself having stopped thinking about yourself? Getting wrapped up in something else, perhaps?
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs..most of the time.
Adelene Dawner: Okay. And in those moments, does your self exist?
Fael Illyar used to do that a lot more than now.
Fael Illyar: although on the other hand, now I do it a lot more :P
Adelene Dawner: ^.^ @ Fael
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I guess I am looking for a definition of self..*grins at Fael*
Adelene Dawner: Self is an abstraction, Corvus. It has no definition other than that which you give it.
Fael Illyar: very difficult to define
Adelene Dawner: Impossible, Fael, if you're looking for a definition 'out there'.
Fael Illyar hasn't tried so wouldn't know.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: huh.
Corvuscorva Nightfire feels like there are some slippery concepts here.
Adelene Dawner: I did, kind of - my lack of a lot of the trappings of self really bugged the people around me as I was growing up - and still does - so I tried to figure out what this thing was that I was supposed to have or do or whatever.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: what did you discover the thing was?
Adelene Dawner: And it seems to come down to... most people construct a 'personality' for themselves... just make one up from practically nothing... and then treat it as real. I only recently figured that out, but it seems true.
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
Adelene Dawner: (And I just don't have that kind of imagination, blessedly.)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ok..that makes perfect sense to me..the sort of thing I was thinking about with costumes the other day.
Adelene Dawner: Exactly. ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I do..have that imagination...and have created several of those costumes...some worn more or less lightly.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Corvi...who inhabits SL..is one of them.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but certainly not the only one.
Fael Illyar: Yes, equally Fael is one of them for me :)
Adelene Dawner: That inclination to make up costumes, when it occurs, is part of what I call 'deep self' - which is another illusion, but one that's necessary in order to *exist* in this world.
Fael Illyar: and "me" tends to refer to one of these as wel ;)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmm.
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Fael..I use Eye for the one I consider most inclusive.
Fael Illyar: Eye?
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. It was funny to me when I first used it..."I"<---> "eye" I was talking to Wol about identity at the time.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: long before PaB
Adelene Dawner grins.
Adelene Dawner: As near as I can put words to it... that Eye is Being's costume. :)
Fael Illyar grins.
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs..I think that makes perfect sense to me.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: It's the least constructed and most constructing of the costumes..
Adelene Dawner: And Being exists beyond time... it just assumes - in the sense of 'takes on' - time, as part of donning this kind of costume.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmm
Fael Illyar: yes, and it even is sort of off to even try to say that those are ever taken off either.
Adelene Dawner: Which, Fael?
Fael Illyar: Being's costume. .. well, ever kind of assumes time so some other way to put it would be necessary
Adelene Dawner: How would we know if it did take us off?
Fael Illyar: it makes no difference :)
Fael Illyar: to us
Adelene Dawner: I suspect that it does take us off 'all the time', but, being timeless, it can just pick up where it left off when it decides to resume playing as us.
Fael Illyar: from our point of view, irrelevant.
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs...like Eye takes off Corvi or Crow...
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Fael Illyar: Yes :)
Adelene Dawner: An interesting, joyous implication of that...
Adelene Dawner: Part of assuming these costumes is forgetting that they are costumes, in most cases. But every person you meet is just another costume of Being, no matter wo or where or what or how they are...
Adelene Dawner: ...and all the 'suffering' that anyone ever experiences... Being has chosen to experience that, perfectly.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh god.
Adelene Dawner: So suffering is... but... *loses words*...
Adelene Dawner: It's all perfect anyway.
Fael Illyar: Being
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...
Fael Illyar: suffering is Being
Adelene Dawner: ALL is Being.
Adelene Dawner: These selves... we have the opportunity for a unique experience... I almost want to call it a blessing...
Adelene Dawner: Most selves forget that they are Being... we have the opportunity to remember, to realize that the suffering is an illusion that we've chosen to experience... and that we can react to it in *any* way. It's not real enough to be able to demand any particular reaction.
Fael Illyar: yes, freedom from assumptions and strict rules.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Fael Illyar: well, except the ones we choose to keep :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: That is the /me smiles.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: for purposes.
Adelene Dawner: Exactly, Fael :D
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Thank you two for continuing this conversation with me.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I feel less puzzled.
Adelene Dawner: Seeing that the assumptions are illusions doesn't mean that you have to give them up. It truly doesn't matter whether you do or not.
Fael Illyar smiles.
Adelene Dawner has been trying to find words for *that* point for weeks now... ^.^
Adelene Dawner: Gald to help. Corvus. ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles..."I have been worrying these bones for a while too"
Fael Illyar: yes, you're perfectly free to act like they're true even if you know them for illusions :)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Fael Illyar: thinking otherwise is another illusion :P
Adelene Dawner grins.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahhaah
Fael Illyar: which you can keep too but ... that could be painful :)
Adelene Dawner thinks of Avastu.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and difficult.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: can we put this in the meeting log?
Fael Illyar: why not?
Adelene Dawner: Certainly ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I would really like to have it to think over again.
Fael Illyar: I'll send the log to Pema like he asked for :)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Fael Illyar: no time limit for these :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins gratefully at Fael.
Corvuscorva Nightfire realizes how much she likes just sitting here and now.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Fael Illyar: Well, it's time for me to leave. See you later :)
Adelene Dawner: cya, Fael. :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye, Fael.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: thank you so much for the conversation...
Fael Illyar: You're welcome :)