2008.09.21 08:00 - Under the Christmas Tree

Here is the chat log for our weekly Sunday morning guardian meeting, at 8 am SLT.

The last few weeks I (Pema) did not add any comments, given the diversity of the discussions. This time much of the talk was specifically about an exploration that I had suggested earlier, so it seemed natural for me to add some reflections below.

At future occasions, when someone else brings up a central discussion point, I'd be happy to see him/her providing the comments for that session.

As usual, a lot of greeting to begin with. I entered in the middle of the happy ritual.

quen Oh: hi Maxine and others
Maxine Walden: hi, quen
Pema Pera: Hi Everybody!
quen Oh: hey Pema ;-)
Moon Fargis: hi pema
Adams Rubble: Hllo Storm and Pema
Maxine Walden: hi, Pema
Maxine Walden: and Storm
Neela Blaisdale: Hello all
Adams Rubble: Hello gen
Sylectra Darwin: hi everyone.
Adams Rubble: Hello Syl
Sylectra Darwin: :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Syl
Maxine Walden: hi, Syl
Sylectra Darwin: Happy Sunday.
Pema Pera: (for me Happy Monday :)
Moon Fargis: eek
Pema Pera: (four minutes past midnight)
Moon Fargis: monday
Sylectra Darwin: LOL
Pema Pera staring back at everybody in time from his position in the future
Adams Rubble: :)
Neela Blaisdale: :)
quen Oh: (mmm sunday late afternoon with fresh pot of tea here)
Storm Nordwind: How is tomorrow? :)
Moon Fargis: (here too)
Pema Pera: so far so good!
quen Oh waves to the future
Moon Fargis slaps the time
Pema Pera waves back across the big water & time
Pema Pera: (across the steppes to Moon, Quen)
Maxine Walden: appreciates the many slices of reality we may be expressiing
quen Oh: (gosh hehe)
Neela Blaisdale: Sounds like we're still in the pavillion
Pema Pera: :-)
Pia Iger: we were talking about time at Pavilion
quen Oh: acoustics are nice here ;-)

Given that most of us had arrived by now, I asked whether there were any particular issues to be discussed.

Pema Pera: Does anybody have something to report, question, comment on, concerning the discussions in the pavilion over the last week?
Moon Fargis: how does that autologger work :)
Storm Nordwind: It's still in development
Storm Nordwind: Wol has identified problems
Storm Nordwind: We brainstormed some solutions in the meeting at 13:00 yesterday!
Storm Nordwind will post that to the Wiki after this
Adams Rubble: We are going to have to remember to put our tags on. I was late with mine this morning
Moon Fargis: hmmm i thought i broke it becasue i bummped it with the anti fear hammer i got
Moon Fargis: because i ad fear to press the stop button :)
Neela Blaisdale: what about the tags?
Adams Rubble: The autologger starts by recognizing a play-as-being tag
Neela Blaisdale: Ahh..
quen Oh: ah...thats interesting information to know indeed ;-)
Pema Pera: Hi Corvi!
quen Oh: so if we want to say something topsecret we put off the tags...
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: Hi Corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hiya
Pia Iger: Hi again, Corvi
Moon Fargis: rehi corvi
Neela Blaisdale: I hardly ever use the tags, where do we activate them again?
Adams Rubble: Neela, go into groups, click on the group you want to wear and press activate
Neela Blaisdale: ty
quen Oh: (groups is in Contacts, Neela...)
Neela Blaisdale: Interesting- PaB is activated, but no tag
quen Oh: in prefs you must activate the setting that you wish to wear tags... can be off?
Neela Blaisdale: ty
Storm Nordwind: Ctrl-P for preferences, general tab, 5th checkbox
quen Oh is now anonymous...

Since no other particular concerns were brought up, I asked about the role of specific suggestions for PaB explorations. I was curious whether there was ongoing interest in that direction, and if so, in what form.

Pema Pera: As for talking about PaB, do you prefer to talk about the practice in general, stopping, dropping, from having to being -- or do you enjoy working with some of the special explorations, like (in acronym) APAPB, YSBS, and the like?
Pema Pera: (APAPB = appreciate the presence of appearance as a presentation by Being)
Pema Pera: (YSBS = you seeing, Being seeing)
Moon Fargis: ...
Moon Fargis: for me the practise in general
Pema Pera: (a search in the chat logs will give background)
quen Oh does have acronymophobia...
Neela Blaisdale: :):)
Pia Iger: They are complementary to each other, to me.
Caledonia Heron: hola :)
Pema Pera: Hi Cal!
Neela Blaisdale: I prefer to practice in general but sometimes the discussions are iteresting
Neela Blaisdale: *N
Pia Iger: sometimes I just do dropping, sometimes I will do seeing as APAPB.
Pia Iger: Hi, Cal
Moon Fargis: hmmm
Neela Blaisdale: Hi CAl
Caledonia Heron: hey there :) morning everyone
Pia Iger: (the circle is full)
Moon Fargis: a karmic circle
Sylectra Darwin: smiles

I then focused on APAPB, appreciating the presence of appearance as a presentation by Being.

Pema Pera: I think for many people, perhaps everyone here, the PaB explorations in general have been liberating in one way or another. Speaking just for myself, a specific focus on appearance (as in APAPB) has enhanced that sense of liberation quite a bit -- one thing I'd be happy to talk about, now or later; but perhaps there are other things we'd like to discuss?
Caledonia Heron: I'd be interesed to hear what you have to say on that Pema :)
Pia Iger: Pema, please continue abou the specific focus.
Adams Rubble: Yes, please Pema
Pema Pera: The first half year of PaB, we have used the 9 sec mostly as an opening, dropping stuff, letting a new wind blow in
Pema Pera: letting go, stepping aside
Pema Pera: but there is another side to all this, letting Being be an active resource
Pema Pera: a kind of "addition" or more "recognition"
Pema Pera: of how to live, act, be much much more efficiently and directly
Pema Pera: a focus on appearance for me has been the most immediate way of doing that
Pema Pera: and it is related to dropping time, using a fourth time
Pema Pera: not past or future
Pema Pera: not even present
Pema Pera: more a kind of actual eternity
Pema Pera: it might be fun to try to play with that, as a group, to see how far we get :-)
Neela Blaisdale: can you say more about appearance?
Pia Iger: (we were just talking about time issue at 7am session, good to continue)
Pema Pera: (looking forward to reading that, Pia!)
Pema Pera: Neela, starting with Descartes:
Pema Pera: I am because I cognize (think and the rest)
quen Oh: how do you drop time? thats not like the daydreaming I am familiar with?
Pema Pera: we can go further and say that all we ever experience is experience
Pema Pera: but even experience has an ex, and ex out of what?
Pema Pera: really the only thing we are ABSOLUTELY sure of is that something appears
Pema Pera: and then we CALL it experience
Pema Pera: and we IMPUTE an experiencer
Pema Pera: and a whole world and a subject and other subjects
Pema Pera: but really all there is directly as given in appearance
Pema Pera: and my suggestion is: you can see appearance as given by Being
Pema Pera: and thus let Being be your engine, your resource
Pema Pera: So, Neela, that's it in a nut shell :)
quen Oh: can't that what seems appearance not be allready distorted by experience?
Neela Blaisdale: so Being as a source of appearance?
Pema Pera: indeed, Quen, what we normally call appearance is part of experience
Pema Pera: but what I call appearance is that what experience appears in
Pema Pera: words are very tricky
quen Oh: I mean experience partly creates the appearance too. not?
Pema Pera: the other way around
Pema Pera: (as least in how I use the words)
Moon Fargis thinks of a rap .. "the appearance experience"
quen Oh: only influences the experiencing of the appearance, I see
Pema Pera: hehe
Faenik: なるほど^^

Yes, words are tricky! We normally use the word `appearance' as how something appears to us, perhaps in opposition to what/how it really is. In contrast, I have been using the words in various PaB sessions in a different way, as the raw fiber of all that appears to us in any form. So here the word `appearance' points to that which is given before we start interpreting what appears as our experience; before we separate the world into subjects and objects, into me and other.

Pema Pera: There is a cushion, it seems like a piece of matter
Pema Pera: but it is given as an experience of matter in your experience
Pema Pera: and in turn your experience is something that appears and that you then own by labeling it as experience
Sylectra Darwin: aha...smiles
Pema Pera: the table is given in experience which in turn is given in appearance
Pema Pera: the cushion, I mean :)
quen Oh: interesting indeed to talk on, only to use corresponding words can be difficult sometimes in my experience ;-)
Pema Pera: oh yes, we'll have to build up a PaB vocabulary
Pema Pera: not to agree on methods or ideas, but on tools of communication
Caledonia Heron: at the level of identifying and labeling the universe - thats one thing ... and, on another level when we have direct, powerful feeling associated with what appears, that can be very different to integrate or understand
quen Oh: mmm than perhaps a dictionary too...
Pema Pera: yes, Cal, integration is key
Pema Pera: and seeing is key
Pema Pera: understanding may be impossible :)
Caledonia Heron: the integrating is, well, sometimes not easily done particularly with certain emotional responses
Neela Blaisdale: Just to clarify, Being to appearance to experience?
Maxine Walden: or maybe Cal is referring to the host of internal, emotional elements from current or accrued experience which affect our perceptions/experiences of the moment. This may be another aspect of Being
Caledonia Heron: assuredly Maxine
quen Oh: it is useful to distinguish experience and experiencing..
Moon Fargis remembers good old pab times where everyhing was so simple :)
Caledonia Heron: my perspective indicates it's all being
Pema Pera: Yes, Neela

I compared the original PaB "dropping what you have" and the new APAPB "appreciating" as two complementary moves, the first stripping down, the second enriching in a new way: from all to next-to-nothing, to all again, but now seen as Being.

Pema Pera: My view, and just my view, I'm curious to hear others, is like an hour glass: we start with life as we know it, we strip off what we have, remain with what is (appearance) and then move out to recognize all as Being, which was what we started with
Faenik loves wells!
Caledonia Heron: hourglass for sure, for me, a circle... lots of ways
Pema Pera: So we play as Being, first, and then recognize Being as playing us and everything else
Maxine Walden: I agree, Cal, and for me part of being is the legacy of eons of evolutionary stuff, hard to strip off, I am thinking at this moment
Caledonia Heron: or not Maxine :)
Caledonia Heron: take it off, put it on, back and forth :)
Faenik: could be
Caledonia Heron: and, I see your point
Pema Pera: . . . and we'll have a lot to talk about to make sure how we all use words like "stripping off" etc, ; at first we'll mean different things
Maxine Walden: this may be an interesting point for discussion at some time
Sylectra Darwin: nods
Pema Pera: but we can take our time -- we have to :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: Mobius strip...
quen Oh nods.. time seems to be todays theme...

Syl brought up a great idea.

Sylectra Darwin: Wouldn't a workshop be interesting?
Pema Pera: yes
Maxine Walden: indeed
Sylectra Darwin: Esp. using voice chat or even in person.
genesis Zhangsun: perhaps a topic for the fest
Maxine Walden: yes
genesis Zhangsun: though I know many can't attend
quen Oh: fest?
Pema Pera: yes, in Princeton, next month
Sylectra Darwin: true.
Caledonia Heron: one of the things I find fsacinating is the potential, the experience of no time....
Pema Pera: Oct 17-19
quen Oh: ah... sorry to miss that
Neela Blaisdale: What do you mean Cal?
Maxine Walden: yes, Cal, I find that fascinating as well
Caledonia Heron: that you can experience, as a rememberance or memory, the feeling of no time
Pema Pera: yes
Neela Blaisdale: Yes that is interesting
Caledonia Heron: a time when there was no time ... ha!
Maxine Walden: that sense of being on the edge of eternity, in the moment
Pema Pera: or eternity
Pema Pera: :)
Caledonia Heron: do you think that's what is is? eternity?
Moon Fargis: PATB
Pema Pera: more than the edge :-)
Moon Fargis: Play As Timeless Being
Maxine Walden: :)
Neela Blaisdale: So now is always?
Pema Pera: Being is beyond past-present-future time in that sense Being is timeless, yes
Gaya Ethaniel: ... time, timeless, eternity... all seems irrelevant in my experience
Caledonia Heron: it's like your molecules are the everything molecues.... couldn't find an edge if you wanted
Moon Fargis nods

Back to "fourth time" or "zeroth time".

Pema Pera: but it is not just "now" or "present" that is too narrow
Pema Pera: it's a "fourth time"
Maxine Walden: I see your concerns about my use of 'edge' Pema and Cal, and agree
Pema Pera: not hard to get glimpses of, and a fun challenge to live in more and more
Moon Fargis: trying to realize a imagination like time....can drive people nuts
Neela Blaisdale: why 4?
Pema Pera: different from the usual 3
Pema Pera: that we grow up with
Gaya Ethaniel heard it was 11th?
Neela Blaisdale: past, present, future?
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: it is that what allows past, present and future to appear
Sylectra Darwin: This discussion is reminding me of the book I read, Death and Consciousness.
Pema Pera: you could call it zeroth time
quen Oh: its that you try to escape the continous ongoing meeting from past with presence?
Pema Pera: not escape, but see through the illusion
Pema Pera: you are already free
quen Oh: somewhere outside this interaction.. yes escape not good word
Moon Fargis: is there really a present?
Pema Pera: an illusion of a kind of present, perhaps
Caledonia Heron: sure Moon, under the Christmas tree :)
Moon Fargis: yaaaay!
Pema Pera: hehehe
Moon Fargis: cookies
quen Oh: lol
Moon Fargis: njam
Sylectra Darwin likes cookies
Neela Blaisdale: :)
Moon Fargis: ^_^ *Nahm Nahm Nahm!* ^_^
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Pema Pera: =^+^=
Caledonia Heron: interesting to mention the concept of death with consciousness, I think the mystery of death may frighten people and maybe if you glimpse being it is not all that scary
Faenik: why not?
Sylectra Darwin: yes, Cal
Caledonia Heron: it becomes a matter not of dying but rather of dying badly
Maxine Walden: I really agree, Cal and Syl
Pema Pera: if there is no time, there is not even time to die, nor to live, so birth and death drop away, are seen as illusions
Gaya Ethaniel: suspended... everything seems to be
Maxine Walden: yes, as illusions
Moon Fargis: wich reminds me of an sentence we developed once at hikari meditation: "When reality is an illusion, and let's all agree that SL is an illusion... we are also aware we can call illusions reality - therefore, SL is also reality!"
Sylectra Darwin: This book which was written by David Lund sort of looks at what the journey of the soul might be if it moves on after death, and how self-awareness would gradually drop away followed by awareness of time.

We reflect upon our reflections.

quen Oh tries to picture someone new to this comes walking in.. and how he/she will react to this...
Pema Pera: :-)
Neela Blaisdale: :)
Moon Fargis: quen: running away with arms up
Caledonia Heron: that's what's so cool about this particular meeting.... we are all more or less at the same place in the conversation
quen Oh grins
Pema Pera: yes, indeed Cal!
Sylectra Darwin: nods
Maxine Walden: yes, and maybe not aware how far we have come in our explorations
Pema Pera: !
Caledonia Heron: and if you or I happen to walk in during the middle, we don't have to stop and type the pab url :)
Maxine Walden: right, Cal
Pia Iger is comfortable that she does not know much about time yet. I know I will get some idea soon. just like Being, at beginning I am clueless, now I already get some taste of Being. I am hopeful.
Caledonia Heron: lol, and ... may we record your comments? :)
Storm Nordwind throws an autolog at Cal
Caledonia Heron: yay!
Gaya Ethaniel: Me too Pia
Maxine Walden: and that we are all growing,at our own pace
Maxine Walden: the atmosphere here in this room is what 'community' is all about, it seems to me
Neela Blaisdale: :)
Pia Iger: it is super we are already here and talk about this.
Pema Pera: :-)
Sylectra Darwin grins
Caledonia Heron: this seems like a good break point for me ... think I will Sunday lounge in my hammock :)
Pema Pera: bye Cal!
genesis Zhangsun: bye Cal
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Moon Fargis: cu
Adams Rubble: bye Cal
Maxine Walden: bye Cal
Neela Blaisdale: Bye Cal
quen Oh: good lounge Cal
Pia Iger: have a good one, Cal
Caledonia Heron: bye everyone, have some fun today :)
Storm Nordwind waves
Sylectra Darwin: bye for now!

We seem to have reached a natural stopping point, ten minutes before the hour had passed.

Pema Pera is ready to Monday lounge in his bed around 1 am . . . .
Pia Iger: oh,,
Pia Iger: good night, Pema
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Neela Blaisdale: Bye pema
Moon Fargis: night pema
Adams Rubble: good night Pema
genesis Zhangsun: night Pema
quen Oh: in a way the experience of sl is interesting too.. being a selfcreated virtual version of a person
Maxine Walden: 'night Pema
Sylectra Darwin: night, Pema
Pema Pera: so if this is a good breaking point, I'll go get some sleep
quen Oh: night Pema, sleep well
Pema Pera: if someone can send me the rest of the log, that would be great!
Pema Pera: Wonderful talking with y'all !!
Neela Blaisdale: Yes need some lounging and fun too
Gaya Ethaniel bows with respect
Pia Iger: I am starting my Sunday, too.