2008.09.09 07:00 - Boxes: in, out, yours, mine

This morning Riddle Sideways (me) was the GoC and I am the one adding all the comments.  I feel I will add a lot of comments to this session, so somebody else might need to edit/delete some later. :)

This really turns into one of my favorite sessions.

Soon after picking my 'just right' cushion, Maxine arrives.

Riddle Sideways: good morning maxine
Maxine Walden: hi, Riddle, nice morning nice to see you
Riddle Sideways: yes, yet another beautiful day
Maxine Walden: always seems to be a beautiful morning in SL, here in RL as well
Riddle Sideways: My eyes are still trying to open
Riddle Sideways: but outside RL looks so new
Maxine Walden: I know that feeling...RL looks so new?
Riddle Sideways: I was up pretty late last night
Maxine Walden: ah...yes...RL then might look new or 'come to soon' after a long night

Riddle Sideways: good morning Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Maxine Walden: hi, Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: How are you both this morning?
Maxine Walden: I'm quite well, and you?
Gaya Ethaniel: Weather grey again othewise well, thank you.
Maxine Walden: ah, grey outside, does that mean grey inside?
Riddle Sideways: good morning prospero
Gaya Ethaniel: Um... somewhat tuned in yes but doesn't affect me as much as it used to do Maxine

Prospero Frobozz: howdy!
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Maxine Walden: hi, Prospero
Maxine Walden: glad to hear that, Gaya
Riddle Sideways: I am trying to find a recent chatlog with maxine and only one other
Riddle Sideways: there is a great quote in there
Gaya Ethaniel smiles. I do 9 sec when I see weather affects me somewhat negatively

Maxine Walden: Riddle, a recent chatlog with me and one other? Just the other day?
Maxine Walden: Yes, Gaya, I do 9 sec as well then, sometimes really helps
Maxine Walden: Prospero, I heard Pema's introduction of you at a recent meeting, nice to have you in the group. Hope to learn a lot from you
Prospero Frobozz: Thanks!
Gaya Ethaniel nods

Prospero Frobozz: I'm just back from SLCC righ tnow.
Maxine Walden: how was that?
Prospero Frobozz: There was an interesting talk there from one of the guys from Global Kids, an education outfit that does a lot of stuff on the Teen Grid.
Prospero Frobozz: The title was huge and long, and the "catch" that tried to grab people to go wasn't actually the most interesting part.
Prospero Frobozz: The talk was really about "La Vida Ludic" -- where "Ludic" comes from latin (or some such) for games.
Prospero Frobozz: "La Vida Ludic" could easily be translated as "Play as Being" :)
Prospero Frobozz: The Playful Life or some such
Prospero Frobozz: He was talking about the education approach they take with their kids at Global Kids, how most of the teaching they do is *in* Second Life.
Prospero Frobozz: There is an idea in modern society that "play" and "work" are opposites, things that are (and should be) kept separate... but that there can be a lot to be gained by bringing play into your work.
Gaya Ethaniel: Could you tell us more on how one can bring 'play' into 'work'?

Prospero Frobozz: Well, what he was talking about specifically there is first that there are a lot of "play" elements in Second Life itself... the interface and such comes from computer games (and indeed a lot of people mistake Second Life as "just" a computer game).
Prospero Frobozz: One of the examples he gave was an interview with Philip Linden, where one point he was asked how the interview would have been different if it had been in Second LIfe.
Prospero Frobozz: He started with the functional differences, but as he was listing things got to "play" aspects -- funny hats, interesting avatars to look at, etc.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles. I see

Prospero Frobozz: It's actually an approach to work that I've had for a long time.
Prospero Frobozz: Sometimes some of the people at Linden Lab who are remote employees -- on what we call "The Moon Lab", because we may as well be on the Moon -- meet and talk about how we work.
Prospero Frobozz: Some people have said that they have an office and a computer that when they sit down at it, they are "at work", and they make a clear distinction between that and not being at work.

Prospero Frobozz: I've never done that -- my work computer and my play computer are the same thing, and for a long time it's always been a little fuzzy about when I'm at work or not.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles. 'Moon Lab'
Prospero Frobozz: When I was a professor, a lot of my work felt like playing-- but, also, when I was at home, over the weekend, I would still check in, sometimes work on things, etc.
Prospero Frobozz: Even now, I don't have a hard "end" to my workday.
Prospero Frobozz: This means that if somebody in HR ever tells me to start rigorously counting my work hours, I'm hosed.
Maxine Walden: maybe whether we are at work or not is a state of mind
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Prospero Frobozz: It also means that even though I work from home, I will never try to write off any of my home computer/office stuff from my taxes, because that requires a work/play separation that I personally consider unnatural.
Gaya Ethaniel: Work situations can be viewed as a play sometimes
Prospero Frobozz: IF I manage to get around to it -- and I've been very bad about that in recent months -- I hope to write up a blog post on my blog with my thoughts on this matter.
Maxine Walden: may be an issue of internal boundaries, as to whether we consider we are at work or play
Prospero Frobozz: Yeah -- I think part of the issue is that our current society teaches us that there MUST be such boundaries.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Maxine, created and perceived boundaries. Now I wonder why one does it
Prospero Frobozz: Whereas, in reality, perhaps the boundaries can be more permeable than we generally think.
Gaya Ethaniel nods

Riddle Sideways: good morning Doug
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Maxine Walden: I have thought that part of our 'identity' at the moment has to do with how we perceive ourselves, as 'working' or 'otherwise' and that we set up internal 'boundaries' which aid that self-definition
doug Sosa: hi
Maxine Walden: hi, doug
Prospero Frobozz: Maxine : yeah, and sometimes that's useful
Gaya Ethaniel ponders on 'self-definition.'

Prospero Frobozz: As with many useful but externally-imposed or perhaps artificial notions of identity, though, we probably tend to take it way too far to the point that it overtakes our identity....
Maxine Walden: yes, sometimes it is very useful, keeps us thinking in a certain track which may be important
Maxine Walden: but it is nice to have the awareness of different states of mind, boundaries perhaps so that we can be the authors of our various 'identities'
Prospero Frobozz: Yes
Prospero Frobozz: The pigeonholed identity that used to bug me a lot as a physics/astronomy professor is when students (or anybody) would have the idea that "I am not a math/science person."
Gaya Ethaniel ponders on the word 'authors.'
Prospero Frobozz: By identifying themselves as such, they are predisposing themselves to not be able to do or like certain things
Riddle Sideways nods

Gaya Ethaniel nods
Maxine Walden: and they are putting you in a 'box' of expectations of who you are/are not
doug Sosa: drawing the same
doug Sosa: or singing
Gaya Ethaniel is weary of those boxes.
Maxine Walden: yes, boxes are wearying
doug Sosa: creativity is crushed to keep society stable; hypothesis
doug Sosa: schools sort us in hierarchies.
Maxine Walden: Sounds brutal, doug, but the pull toward the status quo, the unchanging can be very powerful against the 'new idea'
Gaya Ethaniel: Is that hypothesis based on personal experience doug?
doug Sosa: sure, and lots of observation and mulling.
Maxine Walden: Riddle, you were posing a question awhile back; hope you are still in the conversation
Riddle Sideways: ha, mostly listening
Prospero Frobozz: (sorry, was distracted for a few minutes)
Riddle Sideways: to others speak my thoughts

Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps you could tell us a little about those experiences, observations and mulling doug?
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure Prospero
doug Sosa: o think we allhave them.
doug Sosa: watching my and other peoples children
Riddle Sideways: a great showcase

doug Sosa: and teaching adult friends to draw
Gaya Ethaniel: Still unsure how/why creativity is 'crushed' for 'the stability of society'
doug Sosa: if everyone were creative..
Gaya Ethaniel ponds on the word 'creative.'
Maxine Walden: Creativity means being willing to give up the known and familiar and that can be difficult for all of us at times
doug Sosa: we would be a bunch of individualists impossibleto govern - no shared language.
Prospero Frobozz: doug : only if everybody were maximally creative. You can be creative within boundaries.
Maxine Walden: To be oriented to the new all the time would mean that the accrual of 'identity' and 'tradition' and 'how we do things' would be threatened
Gaya Ethaniel: Humans are social creatures. We seek to share as well as differ.
doug Sosa: i think small changes make a big difference.
Maxine Walden: right, we affiliate as well as go our own ways
Prospero Frobozz: Anyway, I need to head out-- have fun everybody!
Prospero Frobozz: (Off to the next thing....)

Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Prospero Frobozz: :)
Riddle Sideways: thank you and bye prosper
Prospero Frobozz waves generally
Gaya Ethaniel smiles 'generally.'
Gaya Ethaniel: doug if I may be honest. I find your view on people/society somewhat negative
Gaya Ethaniel: Surely it's not all bad
Riddle Sideways: is very nice to hear the same thoughts I have had for years being said by others
Maxine Walden: oh, Riddle?
Riddle Sideways: funny how each of us have many boxes and can move in and out, but
Riddle Sideways: others put us in only one box
Riddle Sideways: and can't see us in any different light
Gaya Ethaniel: It's easy to forget we change. Perhaps that' why.
Riddle Sideways: we might author ourselves into a different story
Maxine Walden: right, that 'this is how it must be' give some a sense of control
Riddle Sideways: but others are reading us in their story as static

Maxine Walden: that 'box' of 'who you are' which gives others (or the self) a sense of control, even possession
Gaya Ethaniel: Maxine, what do you mean by 'control' and 'possession'? Others want to control or possess us by sticking with a static definition?
Gaya Ethaniel: Or they are just being unaware...?
Riddle Sideways: somewhere between those
Gaya Ethaniel: Ah... between or depends on individual?
Maxine Walden: yes, Gaya, it seems to me that one way we try to control things is to put them in a box, tell ourselves that we 'know' or KNOW (by the static box) what it sitaution or person is

Riddle Sideways: brb
Gaya Ethaniel nudges Maxine to sit by her to make the three musketeers
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure Riddle
Maxine Walden: and that we do this 'in the box' not fully aware of what we are doing, we are just trying to get comfortable and feel settled (with our boxes)
Maxine Walden: three muskateers, loved that story!
Gaya Ethaniel: For us boxing to ourselves rigidly as well as others boxing us?
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Maxine Walden: there we are
Maxine Walden: better
Gaya Ethaniel smiles

Gaya Ethaniel: That reads badly... 'for us boxing ourselves in rigidly as well as others boxing us in?'
Maxine Walden: the point comes across, think I understand it very well
Gaya Ethaniel turns music off to concentrate on typing better
Maxine Walden: I too need few distractions to type here and think most clearly
Gaya Ethaniel: Guess we are afraid of 'unknown'?
Gaya Ethaniel nods. Me too.
Maxine Walden: I think we are afraid of the unknown, and that fear governs so much of what we do/are
Riddle Sideways: we can do a lot about the boxing ourselves
Riddle Sideways: but what to do about others boxing us
Maxine Walden: agree, Riddle
Gaya Ethaniel: Just accept it Riddle?
Riddle Sideways: how do we re-tell others who we are
Maxine Walden: do we need to go along with otheres' boxing us? Maybe just be oursleves which may be very 'other' than what they deem?
Gaya Ethaniel: Only they can change their own mind about us. As long as we are being authentic that's all it counts?
Maxine Walden: agree with Gaya, maintain our authenticity which makes us independent of their view of us
Maxine Walden: might make them angry or jarred, for they 'thought they knew who we were'
Gaya Ethaniel: Though in certain situations, such fixed views of others can be extremely difficult to 'accept.' For example at work
Riddle Sideways: or... I sometimes lose business because I am not who they thought
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Riddle
Maxine Walden: and sometimes when I encounter that I wonder if I have been insensitive, but usually it is just that I have not been who they felt I was. Yes, it may lose friends or business, that can be a downside

Gaya Ethaniel nods
Gaya Ethaniel: A friend told me that it is impossible to fully 'know' another. It means one has to become the other. So there'd be always a limitation. My task is how to reduce the misunderstaning and so far my conclusion is just to be authentic and accept the limitation mentioned just before.
Maxine Walden: That makes a lot of sense to me, Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: But it is hard Maxine... as both of you said in certain situations
Riddle Sideways: yes and yes
Gaya Ethaniel nods and nods
Maxine Walden: yes, no doubt that it can be difficult, and one can feel very alone sometimes
Maxine Walden: in trying to be authentic

Riddle Sideways: I have spent over 30 years with my wife and I still don't "know" her
Riddle Sideways: she changes and I still hold her to last weeks person
Gaya Ethaniel wonders if that's a 'man thing'... oops bad joke sorry.
Riddle Sideways: hmmm, is a bad joke thing
Riddle Sideways: but, you get my point
Riddle Sideways: the only other person I might know best
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes why do you think that is Riddle? Do you see changes in you better but not in your wife?
Riddle Sideways: I was thinking we all do
Maxine Walden: what a lovely conversation this morning. Right, Riddle, gosh I think only recently do I hold my perceptions of my husband more loosely,; this it can be a difficulty in marriages, where spouses think they 'know or should know each other well
Riddle Sideways: and was writting generalizations as a specific example
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes this 'should know' can cause problems
Maxine Walden: gosh, I have to go in a minute or so, getting ready for the RL day,
Gaya Ethaniel doesn't really like using 'should' so much
Maxine Walden: yes, 'should know' can cause a lot of grief
Riddle Sideways: I need to go at top of the hour too
Gaya Ethaniel: Good day Maxine. Nice talking to you again.
Maxine Walden: So nice to see you both. I look forward to another talk soon.

Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Riddle. We are not having another 6 hour session
Gaya Ethaniel: That was unbeatable!
Riddle Sideways: I 'should' drop the should from my speak

Gaya Ethaniel: Though I do find at times I need to use 'should'
Gaya Ethaniel: If my statement is based on a personal perception to indicate that fact
Gaya Ethaniel: But 'should' in 'should know' the spouse... that is not a useful 'should' no
Riddle Sideways: and I have "watched" the word 'should' for so many years that it sets off bells/alarms at each saying
Riddle Sideways: back to a funny point
Riddle Sideways: we are comfortable talking generalizations here
Riddle Sideways: and theorizing
Gaya Ethaniel: That's also boxing in, isn't it?
Riddle Sideways: but with a concrete example of 'knowing' our spouse...
Riddle Sideways: yes exactly
Riddle Sideways: it is boxing
Riddle Sideways: and we get defensive

Gaya Ethaniel imagines bunch of people walking around with bright red boxing gloves
Riddle Sideways: because we see ourselves doing it
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Riddle Sideways: lol
Gaya Ethaniel imagines instead people walking around unfolding boxes to box others
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: Life is tough... yes
Riddle Sideways: what an lot of trouble that is
Riddle Sideways: to have to carry all those cardboard
Gaya Ethaniel smiles and nods
Riddle Sideways: pieces to create boxes around others
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes my head would explode with all information about which box to use for what kind of ppl
Riddle Sideways: and my head is so full of what boxes I put my friend in
Gaya Ethaniel: That too yes
Gaya Ethaniel: At least you are being aware of the fact. That's great Riddle
Gaya Ethaniel: A good starting point
Riddle Sideways: aware is first step
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: Meta-snap
Riddle Sideways: some of us babies have trouble taking second steps
Gaya Ethaniel: I do too
Gaya Ethaniel: Takes time
Riddle Sideways: this has been VERY interesting today, but I must go and take my kitty to the vet
Gaya Ethaniel: Good day Riddle. Same here.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Riddle Sideways: and other vastly important RL stuff

Most other times I would have said I had big business work work to get at, but why should I lie to you gentle readers.  I needed to leave to play cruel tricks on my weird cat.  It is a fun game we play.  She wakes me every morning around 5am to play.  I put her in a cat carrier, put her in a car ride (worst thing for cats) and pay the vet to say she is fine.