2008.09.19 07:00 - You, me, the universe... separated?

The 'I' here is me, Quen. I am talking in IM with someone who likes to remain anonymous, when Kelwen enters and he left..
I am about to learn that Kelwen is overcoming some difficulties she was experiencing with Playing as Being, which is good news.

Kelwen Landar: hi
quen Oh: how are you?
Kelwen Landar: not too bad thank you
Kelwen Landar: how are you?
quen Oh: I am fine
Kelwen Landar: i managed to sit doing some uni work today, doing the 9 seconds, manged to do it twice without having mass panic :)
quen Oh: was wondering about the book on the table..
quen Oh: mass panic?
Kelwen Landar: oh, yeh, i dont do just 'being' very well...
Kelwen Landar: part of the reason im here
Kelwen Landar: build up gradually
quen Oh: why not, indeed
quen Oh: its not that easy to start I find
Kelwen Landar: seem to be learning how to let go of what i think/feel for short periods
Kelwen Landar: rather than it escalating
quen Oh: escalating? that makes me curious?
Kelwen Landar: the thoughts/flashbacks etc
quen Oh: and that feels like escalating to you?
Kelwen Landar: im trying to learn how to let go of what i first think of/see/feel etc so i dont allow myself to work myself up over it and start to panic
Kelwen Landar: well yes it does escalate
Kelwen Landar: from a simple feeling into something else
Kelwen Landar: so at least i made some headway at last
quen Oh: for me its just something that can happen.. not something I want to suppress or let go...
quen Oh: and definitely not to panic over..
Kelwen Landar: maybe it depends on what the images are and what the experience was that triggers those feelings
quen Oh: more like some experiment, shows what is apparently on my mind when left 'alone'
quen Oh: could be indeed, they can vary I am sure
quen Oh: yours are more scary?
Kelwen Landar: well yes exactly, and i tend to have the same things on my mind because of something that happenned
Kelwen Landar: yes very
quen Oh: ouch
Kelwen Landar: uhhuh

Umbriel Levenque and Corvuscorva Nightfire enter.

Kelwen Landar: just trying to learn how to cope with it
Kelwen Landar: its hard to sit and think, or to relax
Umbriel Levenque: Metta
quen Oh: seems it is always there? like a living pet?
Kelwen Landar: have to keep busy alot, to try and stop it from happenning. although that doesnt always work
Kelwen Landar: yeh it is
quen Oh: hello Umbriel, hi Corvu!
Kelwen Landar: Hi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hello all
Umbriel Levenque: Metta
quen Oh: Metta??
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
quen Oh: I doubt that working or other ways to escape such a thing will really work
Umbriel Levenque: (compassion is a closest term Buddhists use - it's like saying 'peace man' as a hippie for me :P)
quen Oh: its another way of still making you very much aware of it, to keep the expectation that you are gonna feel fear alive..
Kelwen Landar: maybe
Kelwen Landar: i dont see it like that though
quen Oh: perhaps the opposite strategy of not trying to escape, not think about what could happen, but just see what happens if you are not relating it to future or past, to see what the fear is really like, works better?
Faenik: ah :)
quen Oh smiles to Faenik
Kelwen Landar: yes perhaps
Faenik: :)
quen Oh: it seems difficult, but you could try, calmly...
quen Oh: just trying could not hurt you I think.. running away can..
Kelwen Landar: running away?
Umbriel Levenque: Um... trying...
Kelwen Landar: i think dealing with it by allowing myself to feel it but to let go, isnt running away at all
quen Oh: by working hard and trying to focus on other things than fear
Faenik: why not?
quen Oh: ah ok, so you have in fact allready started..
Umbriel Levenque can't quite put a figure on what he was trying to say about 'trying'... apologies
Umbriel Levenque: :-) I was trying... that's why
quen Oh: only that you use the word 'allowing' could indicate that there is some split in the situation.. a you-part that controls or allows the you-part that feels or lets go...
quen Oh: perhaps an idea to think about that?
Kelwen Landar: yeh, i will do
quen Oh: maybe the you-part that wants to control the other part is judging you and the situation you are in, and could be more neutral?
Umbriel Levenque: Interesting to observe... that all the ladies here type without animation/sound
Kelwen Landar: yes, i do think i do that to a degree. i judge how i feel etc
quen Oh: so you can get a more neutral idea of what exactly it is you fear?
quen Oh grins.. didn't much like the animation, wouldn't do that in real either, though could be a nice practical joke to share with other sl-ers in rl
Umbriel Levenque: :-)

Adams Rubble joins us.

Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hello!
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
quen Oh: Kelwen, perhaps if your allowing or non-allowing part is judging how you feel its just only relating your feelings to things you allready know (expectations of fear, comparing yourself with others etc) maybe thats not fair, you will never get a neutral feeling of the now, because its always controlled by the past..
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
quen Oh: hello Adams :-)
Kelwen Landar: bye
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye Kelwen!
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
quen Oh: bye Kelwen
Adams Rubble: bye Kelwen

Kelwen leaves and I feel rather bad, why (why?!?) haven't I much more focused on her positive PaB experiences..
In IM I informed if she is ok. Glad to hear that she just wanted to be on her own now, and will join us again another time. The conversation makes me think about how we cannot experience what someone else experiences and how difficult it is to know what happens in their selves...or for that matter, in ourselves.

Adams Rubble: What is the topic today?
quen Oh: well Kelwen was talking about her experiences, only she has now left..
quen Oh: I hope not because of that..
Adams Rubble: Yes, let's hope not :)
Adams Rubble: That was pretty gentle
Umbriel Levenque: Some topics can be hard to be open and discuss I suppose
Adams Rubble: We can become closed to things
Umbriel Levenque nods
Adams Rubble: Sometimes it is tough to stick with it and see it through
quen Oh: its difficult because we never really know what is going on in someone else...
Adams Rubble: yes Quen
Umbriel Levenque nods
Faenik: why not?
quen Oh: its difficult enough to find what is going on in ourselves
quen Oh smiles at Faenik...
Umbriel Levenque: Alright Faenik
Adams Rubble thinks how true that is
quen Oh: indeed why not.. why are we such a separated conscious entity
quen Oh: therefor eyes are fascinating, they are like holes into another foreign world, you will never be able to enter
Adams Rubble: Could you expand on that last statement?
Umbriel Levenque: We are not really...
Umbriel Levenque: What makes you 'think' so quen?
quen Oh: well there seems a whole world, called 'I' which watches what happens but is separate from that all
Umbriel Levenque nods
quen Oh: nobody can really enter that I, you have only your own
Umbriel Levenque: A friend told me that separateness is what the original sin in the Bible refers to
Faenik: indeed?
quen Oh: to be selfconscious as an original sin? that sounds interesting
Umbriel Levenque: Seeing one separate from others, the world, Being
Umbriel Levenque: 'Self-consciousness' is the process of becoming separate I suppose
quen Oh: it doesn't feel like a sin, its nice to have a separated perspective which allows you to put thoughts between you and the universe around you
quen Oh: also it can make you feel extremely alone or not related to that universe
Umbriel Levenque: 'Sin' is somewhat loaded word imo
Adams Rubble: I think that the problem is when our "self" makes us separate not that we become self-conscious
quen Oh: perhaps the question is how separated we really are?
quen Oh: indeed, Adams..
Umbriel Levenque: Yes Adams, being aware is a good thing sure
Adams Rubble: By understanding our inner self we can then begin to understand others
quen Oh: its the working of being self-conscious that make you see yourself as more or less separate
Umbriel Levenque nods
Adams Rubble: yes Quen
quen Oh: could be a highly artificial thing, surrounded by cultural conditioning and delusion
quen Oh: could you relate "By understanding our inner self we can then begin to understand others" to the separateness Adams?
Umbriel Levenque: 'Consciousness' itself is a big topic... from one point of view quen you are right. Others see it differently... possibly depends on context

We get another visitor, who is flying around the sim, adidasZero Robonaught. According his profile he seems to have something with robots..

adidasZero Robonaught: hi
quen Oh: hello adidasZero
adidasZero Robonaught: am i bothering?
Faenik: ah :)
Adams Rubble: I think that as we begin to understand ourselves and our relation to Being, then we begin to see the Being in others; also by understanding our struggle with that, we can see the same struggle in others
Adams Rubble: Hello Adidas
quen Oh: not at all
adidasZero Robonaught: :)
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
quen Oh: we are having a meeting related to the playing as being experiment
Umbriel Levenque nods at Adams. Wise words indeed...
quen Oh: I could give you some quick informations if you want

And oops AdidasZero is gone..

quen Oh: well he is gone
Umbriel Levenque: Ah well
quen Oh nods that obviously leads to understanding
quen Oh: it could lessen the separateness because you recognise you in others maybe?
Adams Rubble: yes
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mm
Adams Rubble: Then there is the whole compassion thing :)
Adams Rubble: hehe
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
quen Oh: but will never overcome that separate stance, as that seems to be how our consiousness works..
Faenik: could be
quen Oh: compassion we could use much more in the world ;-)
Adams Rubble: I think that separateness is OK Quen
Umbriel Levenque nods
Umbriel Levenque: Useful at times for sure quen
quen Oh: me too, only it could help if we realise the workings and principles of it perhaps
Corvuscorva Nightfire: allows us to see others where they are
Corvuscorva Nightfire: instead of where we are.
Umbriel Levenque nods
Umbriel Levenque: Pema often speaks about wearing 'self' lightly
quen Oh: seems hard to really do, as you can only relate things to your own thought up world of experiences..
quen Oh: yes, that seems suited
Umbriel Levenque: Guess he means 'being agile' about using self
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi adidas..come sit down if you like!

And he is back... I give him a notecard of what we are doing here.

Faenik: なるほど^^
Umbriel Levenque: wb adidas
adidasZero Robonaught: :)
quen Oh: hello adidas
adidasZero Robonaught: hi
quen Oh: you want me to give you some information about this?
adidasZero Robonaught: yes.
Umbriel Levenque: A friendly group this adidas. Fun too
adidasZero Robonaught: what is this about?
quen Oh: we have this meetings 4 times a day, they are open to anyone
adidasZero Robonaught: ok
quen Oh: its about an experiment, called Playing as Being
adidasZero Robonaught: ok
adidasZero Robonaught: ok
Adams Rubble: We stop every fifteen minutes and meditate for nine seconds
quen Oh: we record these conversations and put them on a Wikiblog
Adams Rubble: to explore reality
Adams Rubble: stop and drop
quen Oh: hope you don't mind that, otherwise we can leave your input out of course
adidasZero Robonaught: hehe
adidasZero Robonaught: anyone visit ryu's shop?
quen Oh: no?
Umbriel Levenque: Some information on the wiki page for you adidas - http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information
quen Oh: you have done so adidas?
adidasZero Robonaught: yes
adidasZero Robonaught: its nice
quen Oh gave him the notecard
Umbriel Levenque: ah... :-))
adidasZero Robonaught: :)
quen Oh: ah you like robots I see?
adidasZero Robonaught: my profile :)
quen Oh: are you into artificial intelligence too?
adidasZero Robonaught: not much
quen Oh: what do you like about them?
adidasZero Robonaught: what?
quen Oh: about the robots adidas?
Faenik: ah :)
adidasZero Robonaught: their cool
quen Oh: right
quen Oh: we were talking about being selfconscious and how that makes you a separate entity from the world.. robots seem separate, only they don't really have thoughts they put between them and the world, they have software
adidasZero Robonaught: yes
adidasZero Robonaught: true
adidasZero Robonaught: SL seems to be lagging to me
quen Oh: it can be fun, sometimes I imagine my pc, or coffeemaker or another device to have thoughts of their own
quen Oh: but robots are more suited to play that game
Umbriel Levenque: Being a robot doesn't appeal to me though I'd avoid all annoying emotions
quen Oh: oops he left..

AdidasZero crashed, but (like robocop) returns... and developes interest for organic, living things :-)

Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
quen Oh: it can be humorous to pretend robots and other technical entities have thoughts
quen Oh: but would really not like to be robot too..
Corvuscorva Nightfire: useful tool...too...
adidasZero Robonaught: ...
quen Oh: welcome back adidas
adidasZero Robonaught: SL really lagged
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
quen Oh winks at the hairy black ball
quen Oh knows Faenik has thoughts of its own
adidasZero Robonaught: nice plant
Faenik: :)
Faenik feels 'seen'
adidasZero Robonaught: is faenik the black ball on umbriel's shoulder?
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at Faenik.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmhmm

I touch with my mouse the hairy creature on Umbriel's shoulder..

quen Oh: yes indeed
adidasZero Robonaught smiles at faenik
Faenik giggles
Faenik giggles. that tickles.
Corvuscorva Nightfire snorts.
quen Oh grins
Adams Rubble: I must go. Bye Everyone :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, addidas
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye Adams.
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love

Adams left. And the rest of us suddenly realises that it is time to go too.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Quen...thank you for this meeting..it's been very helpful to me.
quen Oh: funny had not known that Faenik could be tickle d..
Umbriel Levenque: Time is also up for me. Lovely talking to you both. Good day.
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
quen Oh: ah thank you Corvu
quen Oh: nice being here again
quen Oh: for me too I am afraid
quen Oh: bye all