2008.09.23 19:00 - The Long Now

Sylectra Darwin: Steven. :-)
Sylectra Darwin: My friend.
Sylectra Darwin: Hi Threedee, good to see you.
Sylectra Darwin: :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Threedee Shepherd: hi
Sylectra Darwin: Wow, you look a little skinny while you're rezzing.
Sylectra Darwin: Yay, the gang's all here! Hi Adelene!
Sylectra Darwin: Maybe we'll see Rowan too!
Adelene Dawner gasps, Sylectra's in her seat. ^.^

Remembering that Adelene was comfortable with the corner seat usually, I got up and moved over.

Sylectra Darwin: Grab it, girlfriend. :-)
Adelene Dawner chuckles.
Sylectra Darwin: It's all yours.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Sylectra Darwin: With that plumage, the corner seat is the only place for you.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^

I noticed a pretty rainbow colored ball floating over Adelene's head.

Sylectra Darwin: Cool! What is that you're wearing over your head?
stevenaia Michinaga: I'm still rezzing,
Adelene Dawner: You've got one too, Syl
Adelene Dawner: It's part of the prototype for the autologger.
Sylectra Darwin: Wow!
Sylectra Darwin: I don't see one there ...
Sylectra Darwin: Maybe others see it?
stevenaia Michinaga: what, you have to wear the autologger on your head?
Sylectra Darwin chuckles
Sylectra Darwin: Steven, wearing items on one's head in Second Life is an honor.
Adelene Dawner: hmm... syl and steve don't have 'em...
Adelene Dawner: but no, it's not something you wear.
Sylectra Darwin: Did I miss a handout?
Adelene Dawner: They rez automatically and follow you. Or should anyway.
Sylectra Darwin: Maybe because I was early?
Threedee Shepherd: Ade, I only see yours
Adelene Dawner: there we all go
Sylectra Darwin: Oh, how cool!
Adelene Dawner: early shouldn't matter - it's always on, for now.
Sylectra Darwin: Well let me just say for the record that I am having an excellent Octoberfest ale from Flying Dog.
Adelene Dawner: (and not recording at all)
Threedee Shepherd: ok, some are "hidden" by the floating names
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Sylectra Darwin: The label was correct, malty with notes of caramel.

I wanted to discuss modern society's grasp of time and how it impacts us.

Sylectra Darwin: I actually had a topic for discussion tonight.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^ ??
Sylectra Darwin: Are you familiar with the Long Now Foundation?
Threedee Shepherd: mmm
Adelene Dawner: nope
Threedee Shepherd: No
stevenaia Michinaga: no
Sylectra Darwin: Claire, welcome.
Claire Beltran: Hello, Sylectra. ^-^
Sylectra Darwin: Please join us!
Claire Beltran: Hi, Steve, hi, Threedee!
Threedee Shepherd: http://www.longnow.org/
Threedee Shepherd: hi
Claire Beltran: And Adelene, of course. <3
Sylectra Darwin: I was talking about the Long Now Foundation, which is a group that is sort of like the Slow Food movement.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Sylectra Darwin: Hi Pia!
Sylectra Darwin: They are intent upon bring the more patient perspective into our lives. We live too fast, they say.
Pia Iger: Hi, all :)
Threedee Shepherd: http://www.longnow.org/
Sylectra Darwin: Yes!
Claire Beltran: Hello, Pia <#
Sylectra Darwin: They have the 10,000 year clock.
Sylectra Darwin: This clock ticks once a year.
Sylectra Darwin: Again, with the emphasis on slowing down the perception of events so that we can truly BE HERE NOW.
Sylectra Darwin: Another surprise for me was that Brian Eno is one of the founding board members.
Sylectra Darwin: He is known as the father of ambient music.
Sylectra Darwin: ...a very slow and meditative style of techno.
Adelene Dawner: how interesting, I was just listening to some of that earlier after stumbling across the wiki page about it.
Sylectra Darwin: So with this movement, and the slow food movement, do you think our culture is trying to correct its current emphasis on faster/cheaper?

The mindfulness bell chimed.

Adelene Dawner: *ding*
Pia Iger: not only the speed issue, I think it is also more appreciative of real quality of life.
Sylectra Darwin: I agree, Pia!
Sylectra Darwin: Well, even more interesting is that Brian Eno had an art exhibit last year in San Francisco.
Adelene Dawner: http://www.pandora.com/backstage?typ...=ambient&x=&y=
Sylectra Darwin: It was called 77 Million Paintings.
Sylectra Darwin:
http://www.longnow.org/77m/
Sylectra Darwin: He basically set up a dark room...
Sylectra Darwin: And he ran images on a screen of the paintings, which faded very gradually into the next painting...
Sylectra Darwin: So gradually it forced the viewers to slow down their perception of the exhibit to get in better sync with it.
Sylectra Darwin: People would go in there and lay down on the floor and stay there for hours.
Claire Beltran: That sounds fun, actually...
Adelene Dawner: ...pretty... @.@
Sylectra Darwin: I would have liked to see that :)
Pia Iger: If I can lay down, I can stay hours:-)
Pia Iger: standing, no
Sylectra Darwin: And especially with a good couch, Pia? :-)
Pia Iger: couch is good, too. Most gallery and musuem does not provide them.
Pia Iger: just joking, lazy person's preference.
Sylectra Darwin: I agree actually.
Sylectra Darwin: The better to truly settle in and enjoy the moment.
Sylectra Darwin: Hello, Joss.
Sylectra Darwin: Welcome.
Joss Lefevre: hiii
Adelene Dawner checks... aww... alla way on the other side of the country. :(
Pia Iger: well, a restless example.
Sylectra Darwin: smiles
Sylectra Darwin: Where did Joss go?
Claire Beltran: 'Scuse me, folks... I have somewhere else to be now.
Claire Beltran: Bye, everyone! ^-^/
Adelene Dawner: cya Claire
Sylectra Darwin: Okay Claire
Pia Iger: bye, Claire
Sylectra Darwin: Have a good night.
Threedee Shepherd: bye
Sylectra Darwin: Maybe we should do as the Pima Indians do that were friends with my Mom - they always said good bye by saying "good journey" -
Sylectra Darwin: would take away the time of day reference for our international people.
Adelene Dawner: I like it. ^.^
Sylectra Darwin: smiles
Sylectra Darwin: The Pima are very charming.
Sylectra Darwin: They love to laugh.

It was time to get to the question that had been in my mind since happening upon the Long Now site earlier in the day.

Sylectra Darwin: So I have a question to advance, in light of the Long Now reading I have been doing.
Adelene Dawner: yes?
Pia Iger: ?
Sylectra Darwin: How does the 9-second method compare and contrast with the Long Now way of thinking? Is there a compatibility there?
Adelene Dawner: Well, something like this came up at a meeting a few days ago, and I'll repeat what I said then - it's less about the 9 seconds than it is about the 15 minutes... I suspect that, done right, you'd never completely leave that state...
Pia Iger: I remember what you said, Adelene.
stevenaia Michinaga: interesting thought
Sylectra Darwin: As in, repetition creates continuity of thinking?
Threedee Shepherd: I find that it is becoming a habit that "kicks in" situationally throughout the day in response to potential stress, as well as a habit that happenbs many other times a day.
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Pia Iger: eventually, the state of 9 sec will filter into the rest 15min. So you are there all day.
Pia Iger: but one obvious sense to me is, that I feel a second is 'bigger" than normal. like there is a vast space around the moment, with depth and width.
Sylectra Darwin: Oh wow, Pia.
Sylectra Darwin: space around the moment.
Sylectra Darwin: I love that.
Sylectra Darwin: It's like the scientists talk about the space around the atoms.
Pia Iger: in short, the sense of a moment or a sec is different from normal.
Threedee Shepherd: Given what people who do "sitting meditation" for long periods, daily, have to say My experience of the 9-sec is not *just like* theirs. However, it is a mind-body state I am becoming familiar with and appreciate. So, the moments of one practice may be short, but the cumulative effect is long.

Pia brought up how challenging it has been lately to get into the right mindset for the 9-second practice.

Pia Iger: these few days, I actually feel quite challenge by rocky RL.
Sylectra Darwin: smile
Pia Iger: not sure if I can hold on 9-sec to give the calmness. I was shaky.
stevenaia Michinaga: sorry to hear that Pia
Threedee Shepherd: I find the long now of 10,000 to be more metaphoric than practical. However, if I restate the goal as achieving SUSTAINABILITY in important ecological and societal practices, that make good sense to me.
Pia Iger: afraid I will recede to pre-PaB state.
stevenaia Michinaga: are the"rocks" yours or something someone thrusts upon you
Pia Iger: Steve, they are from outside.
Pia Iger: but so far, I have not fallen too much.
stevenaia Michinaga: harder to duck to avoid those
Sylectra Darwin: That makes things challenging, doesn't it Pia?
Pia Iger: Yes, so it makes me really think how far PaB or 9-sec can help.
Pia Iger: help with real situations.
Sylectra Darwin: Pia, at times like this...
Sylectra Darwin: do you find it helps to meditate longer or for a shorter time?
Pia Iger: I feel like to do a longer one. but I can't stay there long, easy to distracted.
Sylectra Darwin: Oh, of course.
Sylectra Darwin: I understand that.
Sylectra Darwin: When I am feeling upset or distracted, that's when I need to focus for a longer time on regaining my equilibrium, but it's hard to do.
Sylectra Darwin: I have to keep restarting.
Sylectra Darwin: Do you all have that experience?
Pia Iger: (on the note of Long Now, I am reminded something Zen master Dogen said. I am looking up some books)
Sylectra Darwin: Please, I would like to read about that.
Threedee Shepherd: when I'm distracted I try to notice that and "observe" it
Adelene Dawner: Or stressed or upset... ths idea is to drop our identifications, not necessarily drop the emotions.
Adelene Dawner: gee, everybody's really quiet all of a sudden... ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, rl calls, see you soon
Adelene Dawner: cya Steve
Threedee Shepherd: bye

I revisited the topic of emotions and how we perceive them.

Sylectra Darwin: I've been really thinking about being friends with emotions.
Adelene Dawner: good :D
Sylectra Darwin: I know we've been over this topic, but I am forming up a picture in my head.
Adelene Dawner: No worries, Syl. It takes what time it takes.
Sylectra Darwin: I have a friend who is having trouble with unusually strong emotions of frustration and sadness because of the changes he is dealing with.
Sylectra Darwin: I want to say to him, it's like my experience with Mom when she was dying...
Sylectra Darwin: I knew that the situation was going to go on for some time and not be a happy outcome.
Sylectra Darwin: So I had to find a way to live within the moment and keep my heart open to the good things that the experience brought me.
Sylectra Darwin: When it was time to feel sadness, I immediately set aside everything and felt it fully, like an honored guest.
Adelene Dawner grins at Syl.
Sylectra Darwin: ...with the expectation that it would eventually be done for the moment.
Sylectra Darwin: At that time I could decide what I was up to feeling in the next phase of time - maybe just creative zen time, maybe some happiness, or maybe a soft melancholy.
Sylectra Darwin: But that would be my next guest, and I would then fully honor that guest.
Adelene Dawner: Perfect, Syl.
Sylectra Darwin: In other words, each feeling had its own respected span of time - not arbitrary, but segmented.
Sylectra Darwin: But I do not understand...
Sylectra Darwin: why it works so well for me to think of emotions as little sisters and brothers or invited guests.
Threedee Shepherd: I will try that :)
Adelene Dawner: Because that's a very good way to interact with them. They're there for a reason, and they have things to show and teach us, just like friends.
Sylectra Darwin: :-)
Sylectra Darwin: I am working on this image so I can explain it better.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Sylectra Darwin: But it helps me too.
Adelene Dawner: I hope you share whatever words you find with us, too. ^.^
Sylectra Darwin: Perhaps it helps to put some kind of intellectual distance between your perception of yourself and your emotions.
Sylectra Darwin: ...by visualizing them as different personalities than yours.
Sylectra Darwin: But I suspect there is a way of thinking beyond this, in a more advanced state, that says everything is connected and all are one.
Sylectra Darwin: (I don't believe it yet though, LOL)
Pia Iger: I like little sisters image for now :)
Adelene Dawner grins at Syl.
Sylectra Darwin: Me too, Pia.

Threedee shared some disappointment resulting from attending a workshop that didn't yield the expected results.

Threedee Shepherd: Syl, I just spend much money on a workshop from which I learned that IF there is an advanced state, I probably don't have enough lifetime left to achieve it, because it "ain't instantaneous" ;)
Threedee Shepherd: *spent
Sylectra Darwin: Oh no! Were you disappointed then?
Adelene Dawner huruffs at Three.
Threedee Shepherd: I proved that desire leads to suffering (small in this case) :)
Adelene Dawner laughs. "say more?"
Threedee Shepherd: I desired a glimpse of enlightenment. It did not happen. I am now suffering the sadness that brought up.
Sylectra Darwin: It's like that after Christmas feeling.
Adelene Dawner: Yes, Syl. The trick is to realize that there is no such thing as the perfect toy.
Sylectra Darwin: That's a hard trick!
Adelene Dawner grins. "I dunno about that..."
Threedee Shepherd: It's interesting for me to recall that my father (now departed) often said that if you expect nothing you will be pleasantly surprised at anything you get. He was not what I would call contempletive, just realistic, I guess.
Adelene Dawner grins at Three
Sylectra Darwin: I used to say that too, Threedee
Sylectra Darwin: And I recall my Dad did too.
Threedee Shepherd: Perhaps that is one meaning of "Whatever" in Minnesota ;)
Adelene Dawner: hm
Adelene Dawner: The trick to being okay with the idea of never *getting* the perfect toy is realizing that you already *have* it. That's what the world is for.
Adelene Dawner: And before you start about 'suffering', Mark... how happy would you be without any problems to solve?
Sylectra Darwin: smiles

We explored the topic of God for a bit.

Threedee Shepherd: True. If God knows and can control everything (If God), it would be boring ;D
Adelene Dawner: Unless God chose not to make it boring, which seems rather obviously to have happened. ^.^
Sylectra Darwin: I have a good friend who says to me, that when God looked at me and saw me in all my imperfections, he said "That's EXACTLY what I wanted to make! It's PERFECT!"
Sylectra Darwin: I am not as religious as he is but I find it heartwarming nonetheless.
Threedee Shepherd: Actually I use suffering to reflect the Buddhist teaching that desire is the cause of all suffering, and might have realized that WOULD be the message of the workshop, after all ;)
Adelene Dawner: *exactly*, Syl.
Threedee Shepherd: No, boring for GOD
Adelene Dawner: Who is God, Three?
Adelene Dawner: Or what, if you prefer
Threedee Shepherd: Let me restate to clarify: IF OMNISCIENT GOD, then BEING OMNISCIENT GOD=BORING.
Sylectra Darwin: I would think that an infinitely intelligent being would want to be surprised by his/her creations.

Nostrum Forder arrived at the Pavilion and took a seat.

Sylectra Darwin: Welcome, Nos!
Sylectra Darwin: Join us?
Adelene Dawner: Yes, Three. So God, being all-powerful by definition, has probably done something to solve that problem. Any ideas what?
Threedee Shepherd: exactly. It would seem to me that *knowing all* is equivalent to *knowing nothing* is equivalent to *boring*. So is enlightenment boring?
Sylectra Darwin: So good to see you, Nostrum
Sylectra Darwin: :-)
Adelene Dawner was actually looking for an answer to the question. ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: It can't be solved or then god is no longer all powerful.
Sylectra Darwin: Is enlightenment boring? How would I know the answer to that?
Sylectra Darwin: LOL
Nostrum Forder: I was out searching VR for an honest man.
Threedee Shepherd: If you hypothesized that enlightenment MIGHT be boring, would you still seek it?
Adelene Dawner points Three to the Stranger in a Strange Land quote page. "What's my second-favorite, love?"
Sylectra Darwin: Heinlein...
Nostrum Forder refuses to speak for or defend God these days.
Nostrum Forder: He's a big boy. He can take care of himself.
Adelene Dawner: "You told me, 'God made the World.'" "No, no!" Harshaw said hastily. "I told you that, while all these many religions said many things, most of them said, 'God made the World.' I told you that I did not grok the fullness, but that 'God' was the word that was used." "Yes, Jubal," Mike agreed. "Word is 'God'" He added. "You grok." "No, I must admit I don't grok." "You grok," Smith repeated firmly. "I am explain. I did not have the word. You grok. Anne groks. I grok. The grass under my feet groks in happy beauty. But I needed the word. The word is God." Jubal shook his head to clear it. "Go ahead." Mike pointed triumphantly at Jubal. "Thou art God!"
Sylectra Darwin: I would agree that such a force/deity/being would not be bound by human type emotions.
Sylectra Darwin: haha, that's from the Heinlein book?
Sylectra Darwin: Grok, I love it.
Adelene Dawner: Yup ^.^
Adelene Dawner: Last three words are the most relevant.
Sylectra Darwin: smiles
Sylectra Darwin: Heinlein makes for interesting reading. It's been a while for me.
Threedee Shepherd: Well, I sure as hell am not omniscient. Phew :)
Sylectra Darwin: Phew!
Adelene Dawner: Yeah, 'cause omnicient would be boring. Didn't I give you the notecard from that session - the bit about costumes?
Nostrum Forder: I'm omnicient as long as I have access to google.
Sylectra Darwin: But it's interesting that we were talking about the disappointment that comes after Christmas, or after a workshop on spirituality.
Sylectra Darwin: costumes, Adelene?
Threedee Shepherd: yup, costumes are one way, which may be why we all find ourselves *here* in SL.
Sylectra Darwin: Yes, Nos, Google gives us God-like powers! LOL
Pia Iger: (sorry, bfk. not found the quote )
Adelene Dawner: the last part of this, after Pema left: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...ing_Gratefully
Adelene Dawner: Adelene Dawner: As near as I can put words to it... that Eye is Being's costume. :) Fael Illyar grins. Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs..I think that makes perfect sense to me. Adelene Dawner: ^.^ Corvuscorva Nightfire: It's the least constructed and most constructing of the costumes.. Adelene Dawner: And Being exists beyond time... it just assumes - in the sense of 'takes on' - time, as part of donning this kind of costume. Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmm Fael Illyar: yes, and it even is sort of off to even try to say that those are ever taken off either. Adelene Dawner: Which, Fael? Fael Illyar: Being's costume. .. well, ever kind of assumes time so some other way to put it would be necessary Adelene Dawner: How would we know if it did take us off? Fael Illyar: it makes no difference :) Fael Illyar: to us Adelene Dawner: I suspect that it does take us off 'all the time', but, being timeless, it can just pick up where it left off when it decides to resume playing as us.
Sylectra Darwin: Oh how interesting.
Sylectra Darwin: That was yesterday?
Adelene Dawner: Yup
Nostrum Forder eyes the discordian literature warily.
Adelene Dawner chuckles at Nostrum. "It doesn't bite. Much."
Nostrum Forder: The discordians had it right, but somewhere along the line, they lost slack.
Pia Iger: I have to excuse myself. Good night all.
Adelene Dawner: 'night Pia
Adelene Dawner: I haven't been involved with them. The concepts look really neat tho.
Nostrum Forder: Get Robert Anton WIlson's books.
Adelene Dawner: Thanks for the tip
Adelene Dawner: I think I need to go now too.
Sylectra Darwin: Where do I remember him from?
Sylectra Darwin: hmm
Threedee Shepherd: Me too. Thanks all for the chat :)
Nostrum Forder: Illuminatus.
Sylectra Darwin: Well, I guess we've stretched out the evening
Sylectra Darwin: Thank you, Threedee.
Sylectra Darwin: The Illuminatus Trilogy.
Nostrum Forder: yes.
Sylectra Darwin: Of course.
Nostrum Forder: All discordians are liars.
Sylectra Darwin: I did read part of those but then life happened again as it always does.
Sylectra Darwin: What is a discordian?
Nostrum Forder: hehe.
Nostrum Forder: me.
Sylectra Darwin: But you aren't a liar at all.
Nostrum Forder: Then I just lied.
Nostrum Forder: :)
Sylectra Darwin: haha
Sylectra Darwin: you are funny.
Nostrum Forder: In the books, the discordians are a sort of uber-libertarian cabal that wage war against the illuninati.