2008.09.16 13:00 - Stepping aside or living absolute

When I arrived there were two newcomers that I had never met before which was a nice surprise...

genesis Zhangsun: Hi Kelwen!
Kelwen Landar: Hi
genesis Zhangsun: I am having some serious lag
genesis Zhangsun: so excuse me if I am acting a little strange
Kelwen Landar: it seems laggy everywhere today
genesis Zhangsun: yeah this week has especially been terrible
Kelwen Landar: especially here
genesis Zhangsun: Hi emodude
emodude Skytower: hi
Kelwen Landar: Hello
genesis Zhangsun: I don't think I have met either of you before
genesis Zhangsun: do you come to these meetings often?
emodude Skytower: oh
Kelwen Landar: no, haven't been to one before, i came the day before yesterday, just by accident and they gave me some info, so i thought id come back...
genesis Zhangsun: ok nice
genesis Zhangsun: and you emo?
emodude Skytower: oh ive been comeing to these
genesis Zhangsun: oh right ok

I wanted to offer a notecard as a general practice when meeting someone I had never seen at a meeting

genesis Zhangsun: so I don't need to give either of you a notecard
genesis Zhangsun: ?
genesis Zhangsun: unless you want one
emodude Skytower: idc
genesis Zhangsun: hmm idc?
emodude Skytower: idc=i dont care
genesis Zhangsun: in general or about the notecard ;)
Kelwen Landar: id like one please
emodude Skytower: oh notecard
emodude Skytower: ok i guess i will have one too
genesis Zhangsun: damn none of them are uploading for me

Kelwen points out that it was almost quarter after and we were still the only ones in the pavilion... a few seconds later Adelene and Threedee appeared.

Kelwen Landar: i thought the meeting started at 1pm?
genesis Zhangsun: yes mam
genesis Zhangsun: sometimes its like this
genesis Zhangsun: and people come later
genesis Zhangsun: if you want to ask me anything about the practices I am happy to answer any questions
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Adelene!
emodude Skytower: does anyone know where the hobo village is
Adelene Dawner: 'lo!
Kelwen Landar: Hi Adelene
Adelene Dawner: Hey Gen, remember that thing we were talking about? It came in the mail yesterday. ^.^
genesis Zhangsun: Oh great Adelene!
genesis Zhangsun: that will be fun
Adelene Dawner: Indeed ^.^
genesis Zhangsun: Do you have the newcomer notecard Pia made?
genesis Zhangsun: I can't seem to upload mine
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Threedee
Threedee Shepherd: hello
Adelene Dawner: I don't sorry.
genesis Zhangsun: Kelwen someone gave you the address for our wiki?
Kelwen Landar: yes ive read the site
genesis Zhangsun: ok well most everything is on there
genesis Zhangsun: like the guidelines
Kelwen Landar: okay
genesis Zhangsun: and the practices
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Quilty!
Quilty Bookmite: Hi All.

I was curious how a new person would see PaB so I asked Kelwen as we were joined by Corvi,Quilty, and Myoko.

genesis Zhangsun: What do u think of the practices Kelwen?
genesis Zhangsun: I am just curious
genesis Zhangsun: some of them must be a bit confusing?
Kelwen Landar: most i think
Kelwen Landar: thats why i came, just to listen n find out
genesis Zhangsun: do you find them interesting?
genesis Zhangsun: hope i am not putting you the spot
genesis Zhangsun: but it might be a nice way to talk about them
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Corvi
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Corvi
Adelene Dawner: Hi Corvus ^.^
Kelwen Landar: no not at all, i wouldnt have come back had i found it UN interesting lol
Threedee Shepherd: Hi Corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi all!
genesis Zhangsun: did you find any certain aspect of particular interest
Kelwen Landar: are you a guardian?
genesis Zhangsun: right
Quilty Bookmite: I think we all are.
Adelene Dawner: So far as I know, yes.
Quilty Bookmite: Not that it matters. :-)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
genesis Zhangsun: So does anyone want to talk about anything particular related to the practices?
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Myoko!
Myoko Fhang: Hi guys

Laggy in both SL and RL

Quilty Bookmite: Hi Myoko
genesis Zhangsun: we really haven't started Myoko
genesis Zhangsun: so you haven't missed anything
genesis Zhangsun: things are little laggy today
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmhmm...'pears so.
Myoko Fhang: Good. A bit laggy myself today.
Adelene Dawner: 23 minutes in and we 'haven't started' - we're doing good at just being, today. ^.^
genesis Zhangsun: yes :)

I noticed a book on the table and when I clicked on it stated the owner was Adelene.

genesis Zhangsun: what is it you are looking at Adelene?
Adelene Dawner: ...computer screen?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: uh...the book on the table?
genesis Zhangsun: oops I for some reason thought you were flipping the pages of the book
genesis Zhangsun: what is that book?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that was me.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmmm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm thinking nonsense...but...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: perhaps it's just beyond my kne.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ken.
Adelene Dawner: It's the Principa Discordia. I was reading it on the web last night, discovered that there was a SL version, and forgot to clean up after myself after checking it out.
Adelene Dawner: Good read, tho.
genesis Zhangsun: what did you find interesting?
Adelene Dawner is finding quotes, one moment.
Adelene Dawner: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/45.php
Adelene Dawner: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/44.php
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Thank you....
genesis Zhangsun: Thanks
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ok...it's fun nonsense, anyway.
Quilty Bookmite is Offline
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and provocative...in a good way.
genesis Zhangsun: what made u interested in this Adelene?
genesis Zhangsun: I agree it is fun and provocative
Adelene Dawner chuckles. "Well, I have this toolbare on my web browser for a thing called StumbleUpon, which sends me to semirandom web pages when I click on it...
Adelene Dawner: random, especially not-completely-random, can be a very good thing. Broadens your horizons. ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods nods.

I enjoyed the second parable about making bitter tea, hearing a voice that says all you are making is bitter tea but continuing to do it anyway.

genesis Zhangsun: I often feel like I am making this "bitter tea" and catch myself like this story
genesis Zhangsun: it is difficult to stop
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm. Thinking is a form of mindfulness, sometimes.
genesis Zhangsun: yes probably the first step
genesis Zhangsun: you think it, recognize it
genesis Zhangsun: but there is a gap between the thinking and the doing
genesis Zhangsun: the stopping and changing
Adelene Dawner: Think THEN act. Or deal with the consequences, your choice. ^.^
genesis Zhangsun: but funny how we can think something over and over
genesis Zhangsun: see the same patterns, the same behavior but the shift to actually doing something about it takes much longer
Threedee Shepherd: gen, humans are conservative, as in "to conserve" by definition, the *past* worked to get us to now, so changing is not done lightly.
genesis Zhangsun: yes
Adelene Dawner: ... It doesn't *have* to be that way.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hello, Quilty!

not doing is sometimes doing

genesis Zhangsun: this is where I don't understand the whole "not doing thing" there seems to be so much energy put into not doing
genesis Zhangsun: at least in the beginning
Myoko Fhang: ne thing I've been thinking a lot about lately, is how not to force change.
genesis Zhangsun: wb quilty
Quilty Bookmite: Thanks.
Myoko Fhang: I have a great tendency to become somthing all the time. Allmost everything I do is coloured by the notion of "becoming something"
genesis Zhangsun: yes perhaps it is not a stepping forward to become but a stepping back to be who are you
Adelene Dawner: not-doing isn;t about not forcing change. It's about not forcing, period. If your pattern is to change, trying not to change would not be not-doing.
genesis Zhangsun: lots of double negs little confused Adelene
Threedee Shepherd: I think it that change comes through living it. "Forcing" is too much like *should*
Adelene Dawner rewords:
Adelene Dawner: not-doing is about not forcing.
Adelene Dawner: If your're inclined to change, change.
genesis Zhangsun: that is a very fluid way to see it Threedee
Adelene Dawner: If you're inclined to change and you fight the change, that's not not-doing.
Myoko Fhang: I try to just stay put, but before I know it I am caught into my own thought trains of becoming.
genesis Zhangsun: ah yes I get it Adelene
Myoko Fhang: Exactly Adelene
genesis Zhangsun: So what is my inclination is to make the bitter tea but I don't like it
Threedee Shepherd: Way back in the 70s, old Fritz Perls (sp) said: "Trying is lying."
Quilty Bookmite: Going with the flow then?
Myoko Fhang: Not becoming is just another becoming.
genesis Zhangsun: I like that Threedee lol
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh god...now I am totally confused.
genesis Zhangsun: intersting Myoko explain
Corvuscorva Nightfire: so...I'm thinking through the bitter tea thing...thinking..I don't want to make bitter tea..I need to change.
Threedee Shepherd: Only took me about 30 years to *get it* :)
genesis Zhangsun: yes Corvi thanks
Adelene Dawner: I don't know, Gen. I'd have to know more about the specific situation. Getting to the root of problems, really understanding them, often triggers natural change - but that kind of thing can't be generalized. Life's too complicated for that.
Myoko Fhang: Becoming is just another way of projecting into the future, or a kind of greed if you like.
Myoko Fhang: So wanting to not become is just another wanting. So your trapped.
Adelene Dawner: Depends on how you do it, Myoko.
Threedee Shepherd: OK, to confuse things further, here is something I made up (though it is probably not original) that I often state: "Being is Becomming. Becomming is Being."
Adelene Dawner: Truth, Three. ^.^
Myoko Fhang: There nothing else to do then just be.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: gh
Adelene Dawner: YES, Myoko.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: argh
Myoko Fhang: It's the only way out of the trap.
Quilty Bookmite: Threedee, this sounds a bit like "training is enlightenment".
Corvuscorva Nightfire: what if the trap is...I'm making that damn bitter tea again?
Adelene Dawner: Flow, Corvus. Breathe. Be here now, whatever you are Here is.
genesis Zhangsun: yesah yes I see so desire to change may not be the "wrong thing"
genesis Zhangsun: the "wrong thing" is the desire for a certain thing?
genesis Zhangsun: it stimulates movement
genesis Zhangsun: not explaining very well
Adelene Dawner: May I try?
genesis Zhangsun: yes

Adelene breaks it down as confusion mounts...

Adelene Dawner: It's very simple.
Adelene Dawner: Be Here Now.
Adelene Dawner: Watch your self, here now.
Adelene Dawner: If your self is changing, watch it change.
Adelene Dawner: If your self is not changing, watch it not change.
Myoko Fhang: Desire is not wrong per say. But klinging to desire gets us in problems
genesis Zhangsun: so live in the realm of the absolute not the realtive
genesis Zhangsun: Be Here Now works for the absolute realm
Adelene Dawner: Just watch. Don't do. Doing will happen by itself.
Quilty Bookmite: Isn't desire a form of clinging?
genesis Zhangsun: much trickier when we are in the relative
Threedee Shepherd: I think the famous seer Yogi Berra said something like "you see alot if you just watch."
Adelene Dawner: Only if you decide to make it tricky, Gen.
Myoko Fhang: Depends on how you define desire, I think of the arising of wanting something.
Myoko Fhang: Which is not clinging per say. But it latches on pretty quick...
Quilty Bookmite: I'm not sure I understand the difference.
Quilty Bookmite: Maybe I have a looser definition of clinging, so fair enough.
Myoko Fhang: Wanting a glass ofwater is not klinging. Getting upset that your not getting water is klinging
genesis Zhangsun: yes thank you
Quilty Bookmite: Fair enough Myoko.
Quilty Bookmite: Point well made. :-)
Myoko Fhang: The pali word for it is tahna, which is usualy translated as thisrst.
Myoko Fhang: Bummer. I killed the convesation with pali name dropping!
genesis Zhangsun: no thats interesting
genesis Zhangsun: while we are nondenomination I think we all appreciate learning things about specific traditions
Myoko Fhang: Anyway, I feel the practise of just being really helps me resolve a lot of issues I have concerning becoming something. Like a good meditator. Just letting go and just being have greatly improved my meditation
genesis Zhangsun: yes I agree you have to start there or you turn meditation into anything else
genesis Zhangsun: a sport
genesis Zhangsun: a competition with yourself
genesis Zhangsun: a new toy
genesis Zhangsun: that you will tire of
Myoko Fhang: I am rather tired.
genesis Zhangsun: yes?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ulp I must go.
genesis Zhangsun: see you Corvi!
Quilty Bookmite: Me too. I think I'mnot quite with it tonight.
Myoko Fhang: It's like trying to stop a train of bad habbits. The momentum is great.
Myoko Fhang: Bye Corvu
Quilty Bookmite: Sorry I couldn;t contribute more. I think I missed important bits of the conversation.
Threedee Shepherd: bye Corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye!
Quilty Bookmite: Bye Corvi and bye everyone.
Kelwen Landar: bye
genesis Zhangsun: but if start from completion then all those trains, the momentum is just fine all part of it right>
genesis Zhangsun: and by that acceptance you find peace?
genesis Zhangsun: bye Quilty!
Threedee Shepherd: bye quilty
Myoko Fhang: Just momentarily, but by practise being becomes stronger.
genesis Zhangsun: what is the difference between peace and being?
genesis Zhangsun: is there one?
Myoko Fhang: No

The role of ethics: How does one live in the realm of the absolute and be an ethical person in the relative

genesis Zhangsun: one thing I struggle with is the role of ethics in all this
genesis Zhangsun: if peace is complete acceptance
genesis Zhangsun: does that mean then that you end up accepting things
genesis Zhangsun: which could be evil?
genesis Zhangsun: because that concept in the realm of the absolute does not exist
Adelene Dawner: ^.^ @ Gen
genesis Zhangsun: yeah I know Adelene
genesis Zhangsun: I am split
genesis Zhangsun: splintered mind
Threedee Shepherd: Yet, in the realm of the relative, where I sit now, it does.
genesis Zhangsun: yes exactly Threedee
genesis Zhangsun: this is what I struggle with
Adelene Dawner: no, you have it right, Gen. Good and evil are abstractions we've created.
Myoko Fhang: Well. Yes. As I see it you got to accept the most horrid things. Cause they are there. Negating them would be not accepting reality as it is. But that doesen't meen one should not interveen.
Myoko Fhang: Instead of reacting from fear, one will try to react out of compassion.
Myoko Fhang: So accepting evil is a compassionte act by itself.
Threedee Shepherd: Perhaps we can note that Buddhist practice focuses on "RIGHT-action" "Right-thought" "Right-work", which suggests that clear mind will go that way as a matter of course, not because of good/bad?
Adelene Dawner: *yes*, Three.
Myoko Fhang: True.
genesis Zhangsun: seems this is tricky for the masses
Adelene Dawner: 'good' and 'evil' are just a more emotionally impactful way of saying 'should' and 'shouldn't', as far as I can see.
genesis Zhangsun: that is why we live in a world where things are explained in a black and white way
Threedee Shepherd: Myoko, accepting what already WAS is simply being rational, deciding how to be with it from here on is different, as in deciding not to be with the evil.
genesis Zhangsun: because many people don't live this way
genesis Zhangsun: to be one with this way is rare
genesis Zhangsun: even for those who do try

We get heavy on a specific case...illustrating the limitedness of relative abstractions.

Adelene Dawner: Specific examples are always useful. Threedee, is abortion evil?
Threedee Shepherd: no
Threedee Shepherd: nor is it good
Threedee Shepherd: good/evil is not an appropriate frame of reference for that example
genesis Zhangsun: and it is case by case
genesis Zhangsun: so context specific
genesis Zhangsun: is that the only way we can judge
Adelene Dawner: I know lots of people who'd argue with you, Three.
genesis Zhangsun: then when we live it
Threedee Shepherd: so do I, but that does not mean I have to agree with their approach.
Myoko Fhang: Threedee: Time is slippery that way....I am talking more about not reacting from fear or anger than anything else.
Threedee Shepherd: yes, I understand
genesis Zhangsun: stepping aside
genesis Zhangsun: the self stepping aside
Threedee Shepherd: Fear can be, anger can be. Acting is not necessary.
Myoko Fhang: I like to think about Evil as ignorance.
Myoko Fhang: Abortion is ignorance.
genesis Zhangsun: hmmm?
genesis Zhangsun: you mean the act of aborting a fetus?
genesis Zhangsun: or those people who judge it?
Myoko Fhang: Both.
Myoko Fhang: Hahahaha
genesis Zhangsun: well if you are a woman and you choose to abort does that mean you are ignorant?
Threedee Shepherd: Of course, abortion, from a Buddhist viewpoint, is an act of killing and is negative, generally speaking. But it depends on the circumstances. "If the unborn child will be retarded or if the birth will create serious problems for the parent, these are cases where there can be an exception. I think abortion should be approved or disapproved according to each circumstance." Dalai Lama, New York Times, 28/11/1993
Myoko Fhang: Got to be careful here: But yes. We're ignorant all the time.
genesis Zhangsun: right there comes in the case by case basis Threedee
genesis Zhangsun: so then how can just laws be made?
genesis Zhangsun: if it is only case by case?
genesis Zhangsun: laws of general application are they inherently flawed
Threedee Shepherd: NO human law is ABSOLUTE, or relevant to the Realm of the Absolute.
genesis Zhangsun: right but we live in the world of the relative
Threedee Shepherd: correct and all law is relative
genesis Zhangsun: we may know that a wall is full of space and is not really solid but when you kick it, it hurts
genesis Zhangsun: even if we know that in the realm of the absolute no human law is relevant we are still controlled by them
genesis Zhangsun: on the relative level
genesis Zhangsun: as you can tell i have a tough time with this
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Myoko Fhang: Or at least influenced by them
Threedee Shepherd: I say again, all laws are relative (with the exception of certain non-criminal, contract law, which we agree to interpret absolutely).
Myoko Fhang: What I find interesting is where they intesect.
genesis Zhangsun: yes the absolute and relative
genesis Zhangsun: do they?

The mother/child image hit me so strongly in this moment I had to just say it...

genesis Zhangsun: mother and child
Myoko Fhang: I mean, it does not make sense to imprission if you understand that most people just act unskillfully do to ignorance.
Threedee Shepherd: A Zen (?) teaching is that the relative is the articulation of the absolute, I recall from reading.
genesis Zhangsun: yes a child to the mother
genesis Zhangsun: I always have this image
Myoko Fhang: A great image.
Myoko Fhang: ThreeD: Form is emotyness and emtyness is form?
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Myoko Fhang: My spelling stinks today...
Threedee Shepherd: np
genesis Zhangsun: it would be an interesting experiment to see if one could really "live" in the realm of the absolute
genesis Zhangsun: live as enlightened being
Myoko Fhang: Just being is doing just that.
Threedee Shepherd: Only with a complete backup support system, often referred to as "a wife", said jokingly.
genesis Zhangsun: lol
Myoko Fhang: hihihi
Myoko Fhang: Gotto get me one of those.
genesis Zhangsun: I suppose if one really lives 100% in the realm of the absolute then the relative crises and conflicts wouldn't affect you.
genesis Zhangsun: so then you truly would be living in the realm of the absolute
genesis Zhangsun: and no need to worry about the relative
genesis Zhangsun: talk to the mother not the child
Threedee Shepherd: makes earning a living, paying rent, buying food a bit tough though
genesis Zhangsun: but entertain the child so you can talk to the mother
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Kelwen Landar: thanks for having me
Kelwen Landar: it was nice to meet you
genesis Zhangsun: thanks for hanging Kelwen
Threedee Shepherd: you are welcome, come again
genesis Zhangsun: nice to meet you too
Kelwen Landar: i will do
Kelwen Landar: bye
genesis Zhangsun: I'd better be going to
genesis Zhangsun: thanks
genesis Zhangsun: this session has helped me a lot
Threedee Shepherd: to you, too. Bye for now
Adelene Dawner: ^.^ cya, Gen.
genesis Zhangsun: bye Adelene!