2008.09.09 07:00 - Boxes: in, out, yours, mine

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    This morning Riddle Sideways (me) was the GoC and I am the one adding all the comments.  I feel I will add a lot of comments to this session, so somebody else might need to edit/delete some later. :)

    This really turns into one of my favorite sessions.

    Soon after picking my 'just right' cushion, Maxine arrives.

    Riddle Sideways: good morning maxine
    Maxine Walden: hi, Riddle, nice morning nice to see you
    Riddle Sideways: yes, yet another beautiful day
    Maxine Walden: always seems to be a beautiful morning in SL, here in RL as well
    Riddle Sideways: My eyes are still trying to open
    Riddle Sideways: but outside RL looks so new
    Maxine Walden: I know that feeling...RL looks so new?
    Riddle Sideways: I was up pretty late last night
    Maxine Walden: ah...yes...RL then might look new or 'come to soon' after a long night
    Gaya enters
    Riddle Sideways: good morning Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Maxine Walden: hi, Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: How are you both this morning?
    Maxine Walden: I'm quite well, and you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Weather grey again othewise well, thank you.
    Maxine Walden: ah, grey outside, does that mean grey inside?
    Riddle Sideways: good morning prospero
    Gaya Ethaniel: Um... somewhat tuned in yes but doesn't affect me as much as it used to do Maxine
    Prospero enters.
    Prospero Frobozz: howdy!
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Maxine Walden: hi, Prospero
    Maxine Walden: glad to hear that, Gaya
    Riddle Sideways: I am trying to find a recent chatlog with maxine and only one other
    Riddle Sideways: there is a great quote in there
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles. I do 9 sec when I see weather affects me somewhat negatively
    The verb "do 9 sec" is being used more and more.
    Maxine Walden: Riddle, a recent chatlog with me and one other? Just the other day?
    Maxine Walden: Yes, Gaya, I do 9 sec as well then, sometimes really helps
    Maxine Walden: Prospero, I heard Pema's introduction of you at a recent meeting, nice to have you in the group. Hope to learn a lot from you
    Prospero Frobozz: Thanks!
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    I had also read the intro to Prospero and was looking forward to some quality time.  We didn't have long to wait.  He was exacted about SLCC and launched right into a report.
    Prospero Frobozz: I'm just back from SLCC righ tnow.
    Maxine Walden: how was that?
    Prospero Frobozz: There was an interesting talk there from one of the guys from Global Kids, an education outfit that does a lot of stuff on the Teen Grid.
    Prospero Frobozz: The title was huge and long, and the "catch" that tried to grab people to go wasn't actually the most interesting part.
    Prospero Frobozz: The talk was really about "La Vida Ludic" -- where "Ludic" comes from latin (or some such) for games.
    Prospero Frobozz: "La Vida Ludic" could easily be translated as "Play as Being" :)
    Prospero Frobozz: The Playful Life or some such
    Prospero Frobozz: He was talking about the education approach they take with their kids at Global Kids, how most of the teaching they do is *in* Second Life.
    Prospero Frobozz: There is an idea in modern society that "play" and "work" are opposites, things that are (and should be) kept separate... but that there can be a lot to be gained by bringing play into your work.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Could you tell us more on how one can bring 'play' into 'work'?
    Ok, he has my full attention.  I so desire to have this subject explored.
    Prospero Frobozz: Well, what he was talking about specifically there is first that there are a lot of "play" elements in Second Life itself... the interface and such comes from computer games (and indeed a lot of people mistake Second Life as "just" a computer game).
    Prospero Frobozz: One of the examples he gave was an interview with Philip Linden, where one point he was asked how the interview would have been different if it had been in Second LIfe.
    Prospero Frobozz: He started with the functional differences, but as he was listing things got to "play" aspects -- funny hats, interesting avatars to look at, etc.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles. I see
    This is vastly interesting, but I get the image of a famous distingished person being interviewed on a formal TV news set by a duck.
    Prospero Frobozz: It's actually an approach to work that I've had for a long time.
    Prospero Frobozz: Sometimes some of the people at Linden Lab who are remote employees -- on what we call "The Moon Lab", because we may as well be on the Moon -- meet and talk about how we work.
    Prospero Frobozz: Some people have said that they have an office and a computer that when they sit down at it, they are "at work", and they make a clear distinction between that and not being at work.
    My Work/Play is one of those Moon unit things too.  Prospero is discribing my situation.  My trouble with drawing and un-drawing traditional lines.   
    Prospero Frobozz: I've never done that -- my work computer and my play computer are the same thing, and for a long time it's always been a little fuzzy about when I'm at work or not.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles. 'Moon Lab'
    Prospero Frobozz: When I was a professor, a lot of my work felt like playing-- but, also, when I was at home, over the weekend, I would still check in, sometimes work on things, etc.
    Prospero Frobozz: Even now, I don't have a hard "end" to my workday.
    Prospero Frobozz: This means that if somebody in HR ever tells me to start rigorously counting my work hours, I'm hosed.
    Maxine Walden: maybe whether we are at work or not is a state of mind
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Prospero Frobozz: It also means that even though I work from home, I will never try to write off any of my home computer/office stuff from my taxes, because that requires a work/play separation that I personally consider unnatural.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Work situations can be viewed as a play sometimes
    Prospero Frobozz: IF I manage to get around to it -- and I've been very bad about that in recent months -- I hope to write up a blog post on my blog with my thoughts on this matter.
    Maxine Walden: may be an issue of internal boundaries, as to whether we consider we are at work or play
    Prospero Frobozz: Yeah -- I think part of the issue is that our current society teaches us that there MUST be such boundaries.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Maxine, created and perceived boundaries. Now I wonder why one does it
    Prospero Frobozz: Whereas, in reality, perhaps the boundaries can be more permeable than we generally think.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Doug enters
    Riddle Sideways: good morning Doug
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Maxine Walden: I have thought that part of our 'identity' at the moment has to do with how we perceive ourselves, as 'working' or 'otherwise' and that we set up internal 'boundaries' which aid that self-definition
    doug Sosa: hi
    Maxine Walden: hi, doug
    Prospero Frobozz: Maxine : yeah, and sometimes that's useful
    Gaya Ethaniel ponders on 'self-definition.'
    Riddle ponders the acts of defining ourselves (or having other define us) as "What we Do".  The PaB notion of not defining us as "What we Are", not by "What we Do", "where we work" and job titles.
    Prospero Frobozz: As with many useful but externally-imposed or perhaps artificial notions of identity, though, we probably tend to take it way too far to the point that it overtakes our identity....
    Maxine Walden: yes, sometimes it is very useful, keeps us thinking in a certain track which may be important
    Maxine Walden: but it is nice to have the awareness of different states of mind, boundaries perhaps so that we can be the authors of our various 'identities'
    Prospero Frobozz: Yes
    Prospero Frobozz: The pigeonholed identity that used to bug me a lot as a physics/astronomy professor is when students (or anybody) would have the idea that "I am not a math/science person."
    Gaya Ethaniel ponders on the word 'authors.'
    Prospero Frobozz: By identifying themselves as such, they are predisposing themselves to not be able to do or like certain things
    Riddle Sideways nods
    at first I had not read that right.  Both sides are being brought out.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Maxine Walden: and they are putting you in a 'box' of expectations of who you are/are not
    doug Sosa: drawing the same
    doug Sosa: or singing
    Gaya Ethaniel is weary of those boxes.
    Maxine Walden: yes, boxes are wearying
    doug Sosa: creativity is crushed to keep society stable; hypothesis
    doug Sosa: schools sort us in hierarchies.
    Maxine Walden: Sounds brutal, doug, but the pull toward the status quo, the unchanging can be very powerful against the 'new idea'
    Gaya Ethaniel: Is that hypothesis based on personal experience doug?
    doug Sosa: sure, and lots of observation and mulling.
    Maxine Walden: Riddle, you were posing a question awhile back; hope you are still in the conversation
    Riddle Sideways: ha, mostly listening
    Prospero Frobozz: (sorry, was distracted for a few minutes)
    Riddle Sideways: to others speak my thoughts
    Maxine and Gaya are always trying to make sure everybody is included into a lively conversation.  Truth was that I was enjoying both quietly thinking the words/ideas though and listening to others say what I have said so many times. 
    Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps you could tell us a little about those experiences, observations and mulling doug?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sure Prospero
    doug Sosa: o think we allhave them.
    doug Sosa: watching my and other peoples children
    Riddle Sideways: a great showcase
    It is so easy to see in children's play circles what is hard to see in the larger (and personal) society.  And the act of being a teacher trying to open students to ways of interpeting they're worlds shows the teacher so much.
    doug Sosa: and teaching adult friends to draw
    Gaya Ethaniel: Still unsure how/why creativity is 'crushed' for 'the stability of society'
    doug Sosa: if everyone were creative..
    Gaya Ethaniel ponds on the word 'creative.'
    Maxine Walden: Creativity means being willing to give up the known and familiar and that can be difficult for all of us at times
    doug Sosa: we would be a bunch of individualists impossibleto govern - no shared language.
    Prospero Frobozz: doug : only if everybody were maximally creative. You can be creative within boundaries.
    Maxine Walden: To be oriented to the new all the time would mean that the accrual of 'identity' and 'tradition' and 'how we do things' would be threatened
    Gaya Ethaniel: Humans are social creatures. We seek to share as well as differ.
    doug Sosa: i think small changes make a big difference.
    Maxine Walden: right, we affiliate as well as go our own ways
    Prospero Frobozz: Anyway, I need to head out-- have fun everybody!
    Prospero Frobozz: (Off to the next thing....)
    Prospero got us launched and then left us.
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Prospero Frobozz: :)
    Riddle Sideways: thank you and bye prosper
    Prospero Frobozz waves generally
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles 'generally.'
    Gaya Ethaniel: doug if I may be honest. I find your view on people/society somewhat negative
    Gaya Ethaniel: Surely it's not all bad
    Riddle Sideways: is very nice to hear the same thoughts I have had for years being said by others
    Maxine Walden: oh, Riddle?
    Riddle Sideways: funny how each of us have many boxes and can move in and out, but
    Riddle Sideways: others put us in only one box
    Riddle Sideways: and can't see us in any different light
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's easy to forget we change. Perhaps that' why.
    Riddle Sideways: we might author ourselves into a different story
    Maxine Walden: right, that 'this is how it must be' give some a sense of control
    Riddle Sideways: but others are reading us in their story as static
    While commenting this session, I have read and re-read the next couple lines over and over.
    Maxine Walden: that 'box' of 'who you are' which gives others (or the self) a sense of control, even possession
    Gaya Ethaniel: Maxine, what do you mean by 'control' and 'possession'? Others want to control or possess us by sticking with a static definition?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or they are just being unaware...?
    Riddle Sideways: somewhere between those
    Gaya Ethaniel: Ah... between or depends on individual?
    Maxine Walden: yes, Gaya, it seems to me that one way we try to control things is to put them in a box, tell ourselves that we 'know' or KNOW (by the static box) what it sitaution or person is
    I needed my coffee.
    Riddle Sideways: brb
    Gaya Ethaniel nudges Maxine to sit by her to make the three musketeers
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sure Riddle
    Maxine Walden: and that we do this 'in the box' not fully aware of what we are doing, we are just trying to get comfortable and feel settled (with our boxes)
    Maxine Walden: three muskateers, loved that story!
    Gaya Ethaniel: For us boxing to ourselves rigidly as well as others boxing us?
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Maxine Walden: there we are
    Maxine Walden: better
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Whether it reads badly or not, it is great
    Gaya Ethaniel: That reads badly... 'for us boxing ourselves in rigidly as well as others boxing us in?'
    Maxine Walden: the point comes across, think I understand it very well
    Gaya Ethaniel turns music off to concentrate on typing better
    Maxine Walden: I too need few distractions to type here and think most clearly
    Gaya Ethaniel: Guess we are afraid of 'unknown'?
    Gaya Ethaniel nods. Me too.
    Maxine Walden: I think we are afraid of the unknown, and that fear governs so much of what we do/are
    Riddle Sideways: we can do a lot about the boxing ourselves
    Riddle Sideways: but what to do about others boxing us
    Maxine Walden: agree, Riddle
    Gaya Ethaniel: Just accept it Riddle?
    Riddle Sideways: how do we re-tell others who we are
    Maxine Walden: do we need to go along with otheres' boxing us? Maybe just be oursleves which may be very 'other' than what they deem?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Only they can change their own mind about us. As long as we are being authentic that's all it counts?
    Maxine Walden: agree with Gaya, maintain our authenticity which makes us independent of their view of us
    Maxine Walden: might make them angry or jarred, for they 'thought they knew who we were'
    Gaya Ethaniel: Though in certain situations, such fixed views of others can be extremely difficult to 'accept.' For example at work
    Riddle Sideways: or... I sometimes lose business because I am not who they thought
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Riddle
    Maxine Walden: and sometimes when I encounter that I wonder if I have been insensitive, but usually it is just that I have not been who they felt I was. Yes, it may lose friends or business, that can be a downside
    How insightful.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: A friend told me that it is impossible to fully 'know' another. It means one has to become the other. So there'd be always a limitation. My task is how to reduce the misunderstaning and so far my conclusion is just to be authentic and accept the limitation mentioned just before.
    Maxine Walden: That makes a lot of sense to me, Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: But it is hard Maxine... as both of you said in certain situations
    Riddle Sideways: yes and yes
    Gaya Ethaniel nods and nods
    Maxine Walden: yes, no doubt that it can be difficult, and one can feel very alone sometimes
    Maxine Walden: in trying to be authentic
    This is all very nice abstract thinking.  I try to examine Gaya's statements with a real example.
    Riddle Sideways: I have spent over 30 years with my wife and I still don't "know" her
    Riddle Sideways: she changes and I still hold her to last weeks person
    Gaya Ethaniel wonders if that's a 'man thing'... oops bad joke sorry.
    Riddle Sideways: hmmm, is a bad joke thing
    Riddle Sideways: but, you get my point
    Riddle Sideways: the only other person I might know best
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes why do you think that is Riddle? Do you see changes in you better but not in your wife?
    Riddle Sideways: I was thinking we all do
    Maxine Walden: what a lovely conversation this morning. Right, Riddle, gosh I think only recently do I hold my perceptions of my husband more loosely,; this it can be a difficulty in marriages, where spouses think they 'know or should know each other well
    Riddle Sideways: and was writting generalizations as a specific example
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes this 'should know' can cause problems
    Maxine Walden: gosh, I have to go in a minute or so, getting ready for the RL day,
    Gaya Ethaniel doesn't really like using 'should' so much
    Maxine Walden: yes, 'should know' can cause a lot of grief
    Riddle Sideways: I need to go at top of the hour too
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good day Maxine. Nice talking to you again.
    Maxine Walden: So nice to see you both. I look forward to another talk soon.
    Maxine exits, but I have trouble pulling myself out of unfinished thoughts and ideas.
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Riddle. We are not having another 6 hour session
    Gaya Ethaniel: That was unbeatable!
    Riddle Sideways: I 'should' drop the should from my speak
    I remember Storm saying that he had nearly eliminated 'should' from his useage.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Though I do find at times I need to use 'should'
    Gaya Ethaniel: If my statement is based on a personal perception to indicate that fact
    Gaya Ethaniel: But 'should' in 'should know' the spouse... that is not a useful 'should' no
    Riddle Sideways: and I have "watched" the word 'should' for so many years that it sets off bells/alarms at each saying
    Riddle Sideways: back to a funny point
    Riddle Sideways: we are comfortable talking generalizations here
    Riddle Sideways: and theorizing
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's also boxing in, isn't it?
    Riddle Sideways: but with a concrete example of 'knowing' our spouse...
    Riddle Sideways: yes exactly
    Riddle Sideways: it is boxing
    Riddle Sideways: and we get defensive
    Gaya's imagination starts running.
    Gaya Ethaniel imagines bunch of people walking around with bright red boxing gloves
    Riddle Sideways: because we see ourselves doing it
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Riddle Sideways: lol
    Gaya Ethaniel imagines instead people walking around unfolding boxes to box others
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel: Life is tough... yes
    Riddle Sideways: what an lot of trouble that is
    Riddle Sideways: to have to carry all those cardboard
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles and nods
    Riddle Sideways: pieces to create boxes around others
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes my head would explode with all information about which box to use for what kind of ppl
    Riddle Sideways: and my head is so full of what boxes I put my friend in
    Gaya Ethaniel: That too yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: At least you are being aware of the fact. That's great Riddle
    Gaya Ethaniel: A good starting point
    Riddle Sideways: aware is first step
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel: Meta-snap
    Riddle Sideways: some of us babies have trouble taking second steps
    Gaya Ethaniel: I do too
    Gaya Ethaniel: Takes time
    Riddle Sideways: this has been VERY interesting today, but I must go and take my kitty to the vet
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good day Riddle. Same here.
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Riddle Sideways: and other vastly important RL stuff

    Most other times I would have said I had big business work work to get at, but why should I lie to you gentle readers.  I needed to leave to play cruel tricks on my weird cat.  It is a fun game we play.  She wakes me every morning around 5am to play.  I put her in a cat carrier, put her in a car ride (worst thing for cats) and pay the vet to say she is fine.

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