2008.09.12 13:00 - No-thought and gender-alts

Solobill was guardian.  The comments are his.

Adams Rubble: Hello Bill :)
Solobill Laville: Hello, Adams!
Adams Rubble: I can't stay long but wanted to touch base with PaB
Solobill Laville: Ah, great!
Solobill Laville: Any thing to touch base, specifically?
Adams Rubble: No. It has been a long week and I am not sure whether I am stagnating or just in a calm period :)
Solobill Laville: Ah... :)
Solobill Laville: It is interesting the effect of the physical on each of us as well; e.g. tiredness...
Adams Rubble: Yes, it is. I hadn't thought much about that this week but it has played a part
Solobill Laville: it's the mental exhaustion that is tougher, in my opinion
Adams Rubble: Yes, that is what I meant. I haven;t done all that much physically
Solobill Laville: RIght, even long days take a physical toll, was my point. My Mondays and Wednesdays are 14-15 hour days
Adams Rubble: Wow, is that all away from home?
Solobill Laville: Yes, work, then school downtown
Solobill Laville sighs and shrugs
Adams Rubble: Ah, it has been a long while since I've done that. When I work long days I do part of it at home
Solobill Laville: :)
Adams Rubble: That takes less of a toll
Solobill Laville: Sometimes, the physical tiredness can be a help to calm the mind though...so there is an upside perhaps too
Adams Rubble: yes, I am finding that
Adams Rubble: For me this week it has been the intensity of the time at work, not the hours
Solobill Laville: ah, hope that is winding down for you?
Adams Rubble: Yes, it is Friday :)
Solobill Laville: Oh, yes that!
Adams Rubble: :)
Solobill Laville: Is your work project-based primarily, or just on-going?
Adams Rubble: That should be an easy question to answer; it is both but mainly on-going
Adams Rubble: Things got shaken up and we are readjusting
Solobill Laville nods
Adams Rubble: after today I am hoping there is a way ahead
Adams Rubble: and hard work will start to pay off again
Solobill Laville: mm hmm
Adams Rubble: It's somewhat near the end of a 15 year project though, maybe, if things work out :)
Solobill Laville: Wow, that is a project!! :)
Solobill Laville: Does the intensity make the PaB practical stuff (9 secs) hard?
Adams Rubble: Not hard, just somethings it is only a pause
Adams Rubble: nothing there sometimes this week
Solobill Laville: "nothing there" as in?
Adams Rubble: I just stop and there are no thoughts
Solobill Laville: oooh... :)
Adams Rubble: I am not used to that; my three months here has been a whirlwind :)
Solobill Laville smiles
Solobill Laville: I have seen that :)
Adams Rubble: But I looked back and my first week was a little like that
Solobill Laville: like a whirlwind?
Adams Rubble: no, just nothing there
Solobill Laville: ok
Adams Rubble: many of the times as I was getting started
Solobill Laville: that is very interesting to me, Adams
Adams Rubble: oh?
Solobill Laville: yep
Adams Rubble: :)
Solobill Laville: in my 9-secs or sittings it is a part of the practice to have "no-thought"
Adams Rubble: ah, yes, I have heard many people say that
Adams Rubble: So maybe I have to get used to it?
Solobill Laville: hmmm
Solobill Laville: not necessarily get used to it, as to be there with it...sorry to be opaque...
Adams Rubble: Unfortunately I have to go now, but I hope to hear more some time :)
Solobill Laville: :), bye Adams
Adams Rubble: Hello and goodbye Doug and Quilty :)

Adams leaves just as Doug and Quilty arrive.

Quilty Bookmite: Hi and Bye Adams.
Adams Rubble: bye Bill, thanks for the chat :)
doug Sosa: hi, sorry to be late..
Solobill Laville: Hey, Quilty & Doug!
doug Sosa: can i join the discussion you were having..?
Solobill Laville: Of course - want me to share where we at?
Quilty Bookmite: I just arrived too.
doug Sosa: if it feels good, sure..
Quilty Bookmite: What was the discussion?

I sent a notecard of the previous conversation to Doug and Quilty.

Quilty Bookmite: Thanks Solo
Solobill Laville: I was getting very interesting in what Adams was saying!!
doug Sosa: thanks..
Solobill Laville: yw
Solobill Laville: So, I think an interesting point
Solobill Laville: is her attainment of "no-thought" with trying to attain that
Solobill Laville: it seems to be a by-product of her PaB and other contemplative efforts
Solobill Laville: We've often discussed the idea of goal setting, and goals being somewhat of a barrier
doug Sosa: i like letting thoughts float by, not trying to achieve no thought. That seems to me too effortful, too repressive.
Quilty Bookmite: Yes. that is the case in Zen too.
Quilty Bookmite: We talk about the goal of goallessness.
Solobill Laville: For my personal practice, I do strive for it (more of a Soto Zen approach)
Quilty Bookmite: I'm also Soto Zen.
Solobill Laville: Ah!
Solobill Laville: but the trick is to be goalless
Quilty Bookmite: Be goalless but don;t strive to be. :-)
Solobill Laville: hehe
Solobill Laville: Are you familiar with Shikan taza?
Quilty Bookmite: No. Sounds familiar though.
Quilty Bookmite: A lot of the names in my tradition have been translated into english,
Solobill Laville: hmm, don't know if that has or not...
Solobill Laville: but it is an active focus on no-thought...I guess is the way I'd describe it quickly
Quilty Bookmite: Oh right. Not heard of that.
Solobill Laville: But, yes, in the Zen tradition it is often a goal to achieve "no-thought" or "no-mindedness" in sitting
Solobill Laville: And as Adams has shown, it is achievable without striving :)
Quilty Bookmite: but it happens naturally through meditation. You can't force the thoughts away.
Quilty Bookmite: I think it is ONLY achievable without striving.
Solobill Laville: Right, that would be akin to a dog chasing its tail, yes?
Solobill Laville: The whirling thought-circle!
Quilty Bookmite: Yes. Or trying to grasp water with your hand.
doug Sosa: Last night i was hungry and i said "but the strawberry is real."
Quilty Bookmite: What did you mean?
doug Sosa: there are real strawberries, illusory strawberries and dignital strawberries. I love the ambiguity.
Quilty Bookmite: Yes. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: Only the real strawberries are any good. :-)
Solobill Laville: There as real as we are!
Quilty Bookmite: Yes. :-)

I finally brought up the fact that Quilty was, well, a woman today! 

Solobill Laville: Quilty, btw, I noticed a different look today, nice! :)
Quilty Bookmite: Yes. something of an experiment. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: You cna see why it happened in the chat log a couple of days ago.
Solobill Laville: Ah, will do.
Quilty Bookmite: Takes a lot of getting used to.
Solobill Laville: :)
Solobill Laville: I've read a few articles on it lately
doug Sosa: i will say bye, so, ... bye:)
Solobill Laville: bye doug
Quilty Bookmite: It's quite interesting to see how differently people react.
Quilty Bookmite: Bye Doug.

Doug poofed out.  Quilty and I talked a bit about gender and culture.

Quilty Bookmite: For the first time, possibly in my life, I got chatted up.
Solobill Laville: "chatted up"?
Quilty Bookmite: Sorry. Let me see...
Quilty Bookmite: Propositioned?
Solobill Laville eyes bug out
Solobill Laville: hehe
Quilty Bookmite: That's not the surprising bit.
Solobill Laville: oh, dear
Quilty Bookmite: It was a woman who chatted me up.
Solobill Laville: hmmm...maybe also a "woman"...
Quilty Bookmite: Could be. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: You never know here.
Quilty Bookmite: I made my excuses and left.
Solobill Laville: :)
Quilty Bookmite: Happily married. :-)
Solobill Laville smiles
Solobill Laville: So, have you found yourself acting differently at all?
Quilty Bookmite: A little, yes.
Quilty Bookmite: I'm still getting used to it.
Solobill Laville: There is an argument that our cultural belonging needs are so strong
Solobill Laville: that we feel deep need to fulfill what our culture expects of us
Solobill Laville: gender, or sex, plays a big role in that obviously
Quilty Bookmite: Oh yes. Definitely.
Quilty Bookmite: However, I'm not really sure what our culture expects of a woman.
Quilty Bookmite: I don't think a woman is necessarily less assertive than a man.
Quilty Bookmite: Not any more anyway.
Solobill Laville: agreed, but that can be culturally restricted too, yes?
Quilty Bookmite: Maybe women don't really know what is expected of them any more. I'm pretty sure men don't.
Quilty Bookmite: Yes.
Solobill Laville: It's funny, there is a default woman avatar
Solobill Laville: that you can just drag onto your av and wear
Solobill Laville: so I did that at a store
Solobill Laville: she is probably 5'4", 115 lbs or so
Solobill Laville: I rezzed next to a male av
Solobill Laville: just huge
Solobill Laville: and all muscles
Quilty Bookmite: Yes. I noticed that. Men tower over me now.
Quilty Bookmite: Quite intimidating.
Solobill Laville: My first thought was "this is some kind of monster"!!!!
Solobill Laville: That, was an interesting thought...
Quilty Bookmite: In RL I am 6'3 so it is definitely a new experience.
Solobill Laville: Oh, yeah
Solobill Laville: I wonder if there is any SL to RL carry over, and if so, does it effect your sitting mind-set...
Solobill Laville: may never know that one.. ;)
Quilty Bookmite: Well, this experiment may help me find out.
Solobill Laville: That would be fascinating
Quilty Bookmite: Maybe you should try it. :-)
Solobill Laville: maybe :)

Just then, as if on cue by some great PaB script, a huge, muscled, male avatar appeared named arestides.

Quilty Bookmite: hi Arestides.
Solobill Laville: Hello, arestides!
arestides Zapatero: hi
arestides Zapatero: what are you eating?
Quilty Bookmite: We aren't eating.
Quilty Bookmite: We're talking.

I was thinking arestides must have been looking at the Japanese fare on the table.

Solobill Laville: That's just for looks, arestides :)
arestides Zapatero: may I join u?
Quilty Bookmite: Sure.
Solobill Laville: We are in a group that discusses the nature of reality
Solobill Laville: Play as Being
Solobill Laville: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
arestides Zapatero: nice place to be talking about reality lol
Quilty Bookmite: Indeed. :-)
Solobill Laville: We publish our discussions on the web, is it ok if we include you on our wiki for this session?
arestides Zapatero: yes
Solobill Laville: great, thanks
Quilty Bookmite: Please have a seat.
Solobill Laville: we were just discussing the nature of cultural expectations on us
Solobill Laville: and the roles we may play in terms of gender, etc.
Quilty Bookmite: Try one of the cushions.
Solobill Laville: and how avatars can play into that
arestides Zapatero: oops sorry
Solobill Laville: :)
Solobill Laville: We meet throughout the day for folks in different time zones
Solobill Laville: 1AM SLT, 7 AM SLT, 1PM SLT, and 7 PM SLT
arestides Zapatero: 9pm gmt
Quilty Bookmite: Yes.
Quilty Bookmite: Are you in the UK?
arestides Zapatero: nope portugal
Solobill Laville: yes, so this is the 1 PM SLT session
Solobill Laville: ah, I met someone else for Portugal last night... :)
arestides Zapatero: eheh interesting the coincidence
arestides Zapatero: we're a small country
Solobill Laville: :)
Quilty Bookmite: A lovely one though. My father used to work in Lisbon.
arestides Zapatero: eheh did he liked it here?
Quilty Bookmite: Yes. He would have stayed but his company transferred him back to the UK.
Quilty Bookmite: Much better weather than here. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: And they really enjoyed the food and wine.
arestides Zapatero: well the weather isn't like it used to be anymore
arestides Zapatero: really unpredictable
Quilty Bookmite: Same everywhere I think. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: I'm afraid I need to go. I need an early night. Sorry.
Solobill Laville: Night, Quilty
arestides Zapatero: bye
Quilty Bookmite: Goodnight both of you. A pleasure to meet you arestides.
arestides Zapatero: you too
arestides Zapatero: bye

Quilty left us.

Solobill Laville: So, many of us in the group here have an interest in reality, ultimately speaking, or Being
Solobill Laville: so we each practice in some way and try to make progress into "seeing" it
Solobill Laville: then come here and share our experiences
Solobill Laville: (I know it sounds very heavy....)
Solobill Laville: But it is light and fun too :)
arestides Zapatero: well i would like to ear more about it
arestides Zapatero: well to read
Solobill Laville: The link that I gave you to the wiki site gives an overview and also some highlighted chat logs
Solobill Laville: You're always welcome :)
Solobill Laville: You can also just come to listen, of course
arestides Zapatero: well i looked at the wik
arestides Zapatero: what kind of experiences do you mean?
arestides Zapatero: could u give an easy example?
Solobill Laville: Sure
Solobill Laville: and I'll take this from the site...
Solobill Laville: Play as Being is a playful shared adventure around the theme of Being. “Playing as Being” points to an exploration of reality. When we switch from what we have to what we are, what do we find? The best way to find out is to just give it a try.
Solobill Laville: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information/Hints
Solobill Laville: Here look at this page....may give you more of an idea...
arestides Zapatero: xiii this is deep
Solobill Laville: hehe...

Arestides dove right in!!

arestides Zapatero: so .. let's start
arestides Zapatero: to have vs to be
Solobill Laville: ok....
arestides Zapatero: it remind me some discussions about labels within certain groups
arestides Zapatero: you have an handicap or you are handicapped .. you have autism or you are autistic
arestides Zapatero: does it apply?
Solobill Laville: sure
Solobill Laville: all of those things are labels
Solobill Laville: either put on internally or externally
arestides Zapatero: or you mean to have material things? when u mention gender i thought it to be personal labels
arestides Zapatero: yes
Solobill Laville: Well, often people define themselves by what they have
arestides Zapatero: one became the label that accept for himself
arestides Zapatero: we all belong to several groups so to speak, but we chose the ones we want to be identified with
arestides Zapatero: does it make sense?
Solobill Laville: yes
Solobill Laville: That is culture, and sub-cultures, or co-cultures
Solobill Laville: but the trick is
Solobill Laville: to peel away all of those layers
Solobill Laville: those things, that make you think, makes up arestides
arestides Zapatero: and what's left behind when the layers are gone?
Solobill Laville: Exactly
Solobill Laville: That, is the question :)
Solobill Laville: But, to get there can take some effort
Solobill Laville: WE all have made great efforts to build up this idea of "what we are"
Solobill Laville: Some call this our "ego"
arestides Zapatero: ohh but labels are confortable, a confort zone so to speak
Solobill Laville: Oh, yes, it is all comfortable
Solobill Laville: To not have those things can be very disconcerting
Solobill Laville: As you said perfectly, what is left behind when the layers are gone?
arestides Zapatero: i'm so and so - male, female, job, etc - and many efforts in life - behaviours, expectations - are defined so to speak
Solobill Laville: Yes
arestides Zapatero: no need to think about them
Solobill Laville: And that is the external side
arestides Zapatero: yes culture makes it easy
arestides Zapatero: to give up on those thing ....
Solobill Laville: There are many internal pillars, many unseen, that we have created to hold up our "ego"
arestides Zapatero: such as?
Solobill Laville: Sometimes fear
Solobill Laville: Sometimes guilt
Solobill Laville: Sometimes anger
Solobill Laville: Sometimes a wall
arestides Zapatero: ops nothing positive?
Solobill Laville: Oh, no positive too
Solobill Laville: In fact, the positive things can be much more challenging
Solobill Laville: because they bring pleasure
Solobill Laville: and we get attached to them
arestides Zapatero: hiup
Solobill Laville: And then we have to work on these attachments to "get through the layers", so to speak
Solobill Laville: I think you'd do well here, arestides :)
arestides Zapatero: i was thinking that in life we mostly do the opposite exercice
arestides Zapatero: we try to find out in which sub-culture (?) we would like to belong
arestides Zapatero: and we do our best to fit in
Solobill Laville: sure
arestides Zapatero: until likely but hardly life turns our expectation upside down and we find out we don't belong anymore
arestides Zapatero: but then probably we turn into another group
arestides Zapatero: doing the kind of exercise or pratice you propose .. well it's not usual i guess
Solobill Laville: many people do some sort of practice like it without even realizing it sometimes  :)