2008.09.13 19:00 - Didn't Do Nuffin

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    Stim was the guardian that evening, and he asked me, Pema, to put the chat log up. I also provided the title.

    Adelene Dawner: Hi, Stim
    doug Sosa: hi :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Adelene and Doug!
    Stim Morane: An inauspicious beginning, lots of system oddities
    Stim Morane: How are you, Adelene?
    Adelene Dawner: Good :)
    doug Sosa: hmm, i thought the same..but i don't attribute 'sign" to them, just the rumble of the pebbles in the flowing stream.
    Stim Morane: Yes, I'm just joshing ...
    Stim Morane: How are you, Doug?
    doug Sosa: My 'puter went out last night, and i've been cleaning it up today, but still..
    doug Sosa: And i am fine, but feeling the pull of a project that is involving more people than i expected..
    Stim Morane: Oh.
    Stim Morane: Well, not too many here ...
    doug Sosa: i came i think at lunch and there seemed to be nobody.
    Adelene Dawner: Last night was dead, too.
    Stim Morane: OK. Well, what sort of trouble can we get into now?
    Adelene Dawner chuckles.
    doug Sosa: what is real?
    Stim Morane: I would probably not have a comment on that, Doug.
    Stim Morane: But if you do, great!

    The “reality” question breaks into so many different questions that I preferred to find something simpler. But Doug did add some interesting comments about the issue as we continued, weaving it into other points that Adelene started to raise.

    Adelene Dawner: I spend most of the day today contemplating cause and effect and 'getting out of the way of being' - I'm coming to agree with Avastu, I think. ^.^
    doug Sosa: HMM?
    Stim Morane: Comment more?
    doug Sosa: I tried for trouble bu i guess i didn't find it.
    Stim Morane: you had a hunch the "reality" question would be trouble? Probably you were right!
    doug Sosa: the difference between a real strawberry and a digital one, especially whe hungrry. The difference between Palin the illusory and Palin the consequential.
    Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
    Adelene Dawner: Hi, Adams
    doug Sosa: stunning dress. I should have said so last night.
    Stim Morane: Hi Adams.
    Adams Rubble: Thanks Doug :)
    doug Sosa: :)

    Continuing with Adelene’s initial comment, we soon found she had identified a concrete way of exploring some subtle points.

    Stim Morane: What was your thought, Adelene? Adams, Adelene was just beginning to make a point
    Stim Morane: re cause and effect.
    Adelene Dawner: Well, I'm still playing with it. Avastu's take seems to be that cause and effect is illusory in all cases, and the jury's still out on that one. But I've been playign with letting my thoughts - specifically, thoughts about what I want to do, or what might happen, or the future in general - just be what they are, and not actually making an effort to put them into action... the results have been interesting and I've wound up doing rather more things than I would've expected in such conditions.
    doug Sosa: how do you explain gettinf from no effort and doing more?
    doug Sosa: "getting from no effort to doing more."
    Adelene Dawner: Things as simple as 'I want fast food' - the thought is what it is, and if my feet take me there, ok, and if not, ok... and there's been a lot of 'not', but a surprising amount of 'walking into the restaurant and ordering food', too, even though I'm not putting any energy into making that happen, if that makes sense.
    Stim Morane: Yes.
    Adelene Dawner: (Surprising given that I was expecting to wind up not doing anything, without making that effort, anyway.)
    Stim Morane: This doesn't actually refute "cause and effect" but it does indicate something important about the heavy-handedness of our usual approaches to life.
    Stim Morane: I don't disagree with the point he probably has in mind, but we must also realize that it's too easy to relegate things to the category of "illusion".
    doug Sosa: Beautifully said, both.
    Stim Morane: Anyway, I'm glad to hear about your discoveries, Adelene. These are unquestionably relevant to a better way of living.
    Adelene Dawner: Yeah, it's not too closely related to actual cause and effect... but it's the closest I can play with firsthand, I think, and actually closely observe what's going on.

    I strongly endorse Adelene’s approach.

    doug Sosa: the mind sees the fast food as an illusion, but something in there doesn't, but beleives it real, wants it, and goes for it.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Stim Morane: There are many levels of "letting go" available to us regarding our usual emphases on the self as "doer".
    doug Sosa: Its likewe have a committee of folks inside us acting on desires we are thinking might be illusions!
    Stim Morane: And to the extent that we can truly see the inauthenticity of this "doer" view, we can indeed relax it.
    Stim Morane: Would you like to elaborate, Doug?
    doug Sosa: actually that is about as far as i can go.
    Stim Morane: OK. Well we seem to have succeeded in starting to get into trouble after all.
    Stim Morane: Good.

    I wanted to check in with Adams before we continued.

    Stim Morane: How have you been, Adams?
    Adams Rubble: I am OK. Thank you Dtim. Just tired and listening
    Adams Rubble: Stim
    Adams Rubble: I ahve one question to Adelene
    Stim Morane: ?
    Adelene Dawner: ?
    Adelene Dawner: Hi Corvus :)
    Adams Rubble: Is the reference to fast food a reference to food or a reference to fast food isntead of more nourishing food
    Adams Rubble: Hi Corvi :)
    Adelene Dawner: Um, either/both... my diet isn't the best.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi all
    Stim Morane: Hi Corvuscorva
    doug Sosa: hi indeed.
    Adelene Dawner: Though 'running on autopilot' does seem to lead to a small increase in diet quality.
    Stim Morane: Adelene, the experiment you describe of observing basic things about ordinary life is extremely important and open-ended in scope.
    Adelene Dawner: (There are other issues though.)
    Stim Morane: It's an ideal area to investigate, grounded, honest and bearing directly on the key point of the "agent self" view.
    Adelene Dawner: ...english, Stim?
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Stim Morane: which part would like me to translate into English?
    Stim Morane: :)
    Adelene Dawner: 'agent self' would be the most useful.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire begs for the whole sentence..

    I will have to find ways of phrasing what I usually discuss in my meditation classes to language more suitable to PaB.

    Stim Morane: "agent self" is the self as doer, performer of actions.
    Stim Morane: The "cause" in the scenario you began with.
    Adelene Dawner: (Actually no, not quite... but continue)
    Stim Morane: Studying this in ways we can actually find concretely is very grounded and honest, rather than abstract and unlikely to help.
    Stim Morane: Oh, I'm sure there is some difference, but I still think you were on that track. Do you disagree?
    Adelene Dawner: A track close to that, yes. I was looking at it from the angle of thoughts as the cause and actions as the effect, and found that ther correlation is not that strong. (There were also actions that happened with no apparent triggering thoughts, too.)
    Stim Morane: Yes
    Stim Morane: OK.
    Stim Morane: Other findings in other areas?
    Adelene Dawner: Back to the diet thread, it's interesting how so many of my sensory aversions have dissapeared in the last couple of months.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: aversions to specific food textures or tastes?
    Adelene Dawner: Yes-and. I experience aversions to specific sensations in all five major senses.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmm?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and some of these have disappeared?
    Adelene Dawner: There are specific sensations that I find physically painful, for no apparent reason, that other people aren't bothered by. And yes, some of them have become non-painful and others are less painful.

    Here Adelene had raised another topic with many implications for life in general.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah
    Stim Morane: How do you account for this change?
    doug Sosa: i am called to dinner.... sorry to miss..
    Stim Morane: Oh, sure ... bye Doug.
    Adams Rubble: bye doug
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye , Dough!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Doug!
    Adams Rubble is thinking what varied and wonderful side effects to PaB so many of us have
    Adelene Dawner: I don't, Stim. It's pretty mysterious. The only clue I have is that my startle response has changed to keep pace with some of them - one of my big sound aversions is sudden loud sounds of most kinds, and where before they'd be literally painful, not I do a 'jump out of my skin' thing but there's no pain.
    Adelene Dawner: *now I do
    Stim Morane: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Deamon.
    Deamon Easterwood: hello
    Adams Rubble: Hello Deamon
    Deamon Easterwood: may i join you?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Please!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Come sit down!
    Deamon Easterwood: thank you.
    Stim Morane: This is understandable ... people have long known that more awareness of what things are diminishes their coercive "charge". This is the principle behind the ancient "suchness" notion, at least on an ordinary life level.
    Stim Morane: Hi Deamon.
    Deamon Easterwood: hello
    Stim Morane: By "what things are", I mean more direct appreciation
    Adelene Dawner needs a Stim-to-English dictionary ^.^
    Stim Morane: I'm sure it's available in any good bookstore.
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adelene Dawner chuckles.
    Stim Morane: Oh, I forgot ... there are no bookstores anymore.
    Stim Morane: Well, Amazon then.

    We turned to our new guest, and then continued.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Deamon...have you been here before?
    Deamon Easterwood: yes i go to the little mediation every day at 6 here but they have left and i didn't make it on time today
    Stim Morane: That sounds like something I don't know about, Deamon.
    Adelene Dawner: The startle thing seems to be related to the fact that I'm slowly realizing that it's okay - normal, even - to react to things in a way that others can see. But that doesn't explain the rest of the aversions dissapearing. The fact that I can ear veggies now is... weird.
    Adelene Dawner: *eat
    Adams Rubble: That is at the Zen Retreat tim run by Dakini
    Deamon Easterwood: its right behind us
    Deamon Easterwood: in one of the little medation places.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods at Adelene..
    Stim Morane: Oh, yes Deamon. I understand now.
    Stim Morane: Good for you!
    Stim Morane: Veggies are calling out to you ...
    Adelene Dawner rolls her eyes at Stim.
    Stim Morane: I'm not entirely joking.
    Deamon Easterwood: yeah they were the nicest people i have met on here...
    Deamon Easterwood: the first people i met on here
    Adelene Dawner: I know, and it's a good thing, it's just a bit... I donno, it just doesn't seem right to be praised for something that's been completely involuntary in every iteration.
    Adams Rubble: Well the praise comes from the work you did to get there Adelene
    Adelene Dawner didn't do nuffin, What're you talking about?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire scoffs.
    Adams Rubble: You have been observing, watching
    Stim Morane: There's a lot in what you are describing. The principle applies to so many things in life ...

    Corvuscorva then made an astute assessment of Adelene’s experience, and I started to bow out.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Perhaps it's doing nothing that you have done.
    Stim Morane: Yes, that's where this session started, Corvuscorva
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles..
    Stim Morane: I have to go now. Would one of you send me the remainder of the chat log?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I should have been on time.
    Stim Morane: It seems you didn't need to, Corvuscorva ...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Adams Rubble: bye Stim
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Stim.
    Adelene Dawner: I guess I will, Stim, if nobody else is goign to volunteer.
    Stim Morane: Bye, everyone. Thanks, Adelene ... I appreciate it.
    Adelene Dawner: (Do I have your email? Or... notecard works)
    Stim Morane: I'll email you, just to be sure.
    Stim Morane: Bye!

    Since I wasn’t present for the rest, I will leave the text of the remaining discussion uncommented.

    Adams Rubble: Daemon we are a play-as-Being group
    Deamon Easterwood: ah.
    Adams Rubble: we explore reality by stopping every 15 minutes flor a nine-second meditation
    Deamon Easterwood: ah.
    Adams Rubble: we meet here four times a day to discuss what we have learned and share our experiences
    Deamon Easterwood: ok.
    Deamon Easterwood: :]
    Adams Rubble: We have a chat log which is posted on our website
    Adams Rubble: Do you have any objection to appearing there?
    Deamon Easterwood: no
    Deamon Easterwood: sorry
    Deamon Easterwood: i am working on a bit of my homework...
    Adams Rubble: Thank you very much :)
    Adams Rubble: ah
    Adams Rubble: You are welcome to come to any of the four meetings at 7, 1, 7 and 1
    Adams Rubble: a time for almost everyone :)
    Deamon Easterwood: thank you i will try to be here.
    Adams Rubble: We are a nice bunch too :)
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Deamon Easterwood: that is wonderful
    Deamon Easterwood: thank you all
    Adams Rubble: you are very welcome :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire is still interested in Adelene's changed responses.
    Adams Rubble: Eating vegetables would be a wonderful outcome of attending PaB :)
    Adelene Dawner: Me, too. I'll have to keep giving updates as things change.
    Adams Rubble's diet has not improved unfortunately
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: No?
    Adams Rubble: not with PaB
    Adelene Dawner: This is part of why, by the way, I'm so interested in going to the meetup - between the not minding being touched, and the tolerance for noise, and the not getting stressed when my auditory processing goes flooey, it'll be interesting to see how well I handle a crowd of relative strangers now.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adams Rubble has been having trouble with RL groups
    Adams Rubble also looking forward to meeting
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: (Granted, I'm still pretty likely to spend time in I-don't-want-to-deal-with-humans mode... but I'll be surprised if that's a major feature of the time there, now.)
    Adams Rubble: I am finding it interesting what you are doing Adelene. I have been watching my thoughts but not my actions
    Deamon Easterwood: sorry i am not so talkative iwas working on my art project :]
    Adelene Dawner: No worries, Deamon. There's no obligation to talk at all.
    Adams Rubble: There is no obligation to talk Daemon but you are welcome to if you want to
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Deamon Easterwood: thank you
    Adams Rubble: Thank you all for the conversation. Bye for now :)
    Adelene Dawner: Cya, Adams.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think it's time for me to go, too.
    Deamon Easterwood: good bye
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: It was good to see you, Adelene...and good to meet you Deamon...
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^ cya around, Corvus
    Deamon Easterwood: nice to meet you as well
    Deamon Easterwood: i am going to go explore
    Adelene Dawner: Have fun, Deamon
    Deamon Easterwood: thank you Adelene Dawner: ^.^
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