2008.09.17 07:00 - The playful life

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    This was a really wide ranging discussion through aspects of life, love, identity, fairies, theatre, playing, witness protection, friendship, fidelity, wings, supernova, the woohoo ... gosh, a lot of stuff.  I hope you take the time to read it.  Cal

    It's so nice to meet new people :) ...

    Caledonia Heron: hey there Kelwen :)
    Kelwen Landar: Hi
    Caledonia Heron: this is the play as being discussion
    Caledonia Heron: have you been here before?
    Kelwen Landar: only once before
    Caledonia Heron: great!
    Kelwen Landar: oh, and one sort of 'Introduction'..
    Caledonia Heron: so someone explained what we're doing? and that we record the chat log?
    Kelwen Landar: yeh
    Kelwen Landar: they gave me the wiki site link...
    Caledonia Heron: ok, great :)
    Kelwen Landar: i prolly won't talk tho'
    Caledonia Heron: lol, well, if it's just you and me that will be pretty funny :)
    Kelwen Landar: hehe
    Kelwen Landar: well, i mean if there's others...
    Kelwen Landar: i'm a bit shy tbh, plus im just trying to find out about it all, so dont really have much to contribute..
    Caledonia Heron: that's one of the cool things about SL ... people who might not share in a group in person feel more open to sharing in text
    Caledonia Heron: sure, I'm shy sometimes too :)
    Caledonia Heron: your outfit does not look shy :)
    Kelwen Landar: i love fairies
    Caledonia Heron: you are a beautiful fairy :)
    Kelwen Landar: thank you
    Kelwen Landar: sometimes i'm a butterfly instead..
    Kelwen Landar: sometimes I just dress her 'normally'
    Caledonia Heron: really? I have seen some beautiful wings in sl
    Kelwen Landar: depends how i feel
    Caledonia Heron: sure, me too :)
    Caledonia Heron: one of the avs that comes here makes beautiful wings.... Fael
    Kelwen Landar: oh really
    Kelwen Landar: i'm always looking for more
    Caledonia Heron: yes, perhaps you should talk sometime, she might have a pair for you :)
    Kelwen Landar: yeh, i may just do that :)
    Kelwen Landar: (one of millions, but i'll refrain from the rest for now)

    Figuring out how pab works...

    Kelwen Landar: can i ask a really silly question?
    Caledonia Heron: sure, you can ask a question :)
    Kelwen Landar: when i was here the first time, (i found it completely by accident, i was just looking for somewhere to have some 'time out'...) they spoke about the bell ringing? and about meditation?
    Kelwen Landar: i was at another meeting, i dropped by again just out of interest, but it wasnt mentioned..
    Caledonia Heron: yes, there's a bell hanging from the ceiling that rings on the quarter hour .... it is an audio reminder of sorts to practice the 9sec experiment
    Kelwen Landar: i was just a little confused
    Kelwen Landar: yes i heard it
    Caledonia Heron: it's merely a cue, to remind people

    SL Theatre, SL as theatre...

    Prospero Frobozz: Hey
    Caledonia Heron: hey Prospero :)
    Kelwen Landar: oh ok, so its personal, it isn't mentioned during the meeting?
    Kelwen Landar: Hi...
    Caledonia Heron: sometimes it is Kelwen, others it just passes by
    Kelwen Landar: oh ok
    Kelwen Landar: thank you
    Prospero Frobozz: I haven't been around lately as I've been absorbed in SL with the opening of the SLSC play I was directing....
    Caledonia Heron: ah, what play are you doing this go round?
    Prospero Frobozz: "One's a Pawn of Time" -- it's not Shakespeare. (Say the title out loud to get the pun.) It's a time-travel one-act, although done in the SL Globe.
    Caledonia Heron: funny pun
    Caledonia Heron: when does it open?
    Prospero Frobozz: Last Friday :)
    Caledonia Heron: lol
    Caledonia Heron: oops
    Caledonia Heron: at what times?
    Prospero Frobozz: Three more performances this weekend; ticketed performances Friday and Saturday (7PM and 11AM) and a free performance Sunday (3PM)
    Prospero Frobozz: Plus, there's some talk that we may slide into an extended run
    Caledonia Heron: oh gosh, tickets!
    Prospero Frobozz: :)
    Caledonia Heron: by critical acclaim!!
    Prospero Frobozz: Yeah, I would have just made all the performances free, but the people who actually *pay* to keep the SLSC going (tier, costumes, building, etc.) wanted to have some ticketed performances.....
    Prospero Frobozz: Originally they were talking about making them all ticketed
    Kelwen Landar: *sits looking shocked that theyre are ACTUAL plays in SL* @-)
    Caledonia Heron: it's good to have a mix - those that can pay, will
    Prospero Frobozz: Kelwen : yeah, there's a number. The SL Shakespeare Festival is the group I'm involved with, but there are others.
    Caledonia Heron: is it in voice or text? or both?
    Prospero Frobozz: Cal, did you go to the talk by the professor who did the Greek tragedy? (At SLCC.)
    Kelwen Landar: thats pretty cool
    Prospero Frobozz: Voice
    Caledonia Heron: no, I sure didn't - how was it?
    Prospero Frobozz: It was interesting.
    Prospero Frobozz: There's all kinds of academic discussion about whether or not theater in a virtual world is real theater.
    Caledonia Heron: was it really dramatic? :)
    Caledonia Heron: LOL
    Caledonia Heron: that cracks me up
    Prospero Frobozz: People get hung up on different kinds of definitions -- well, you're not all in the same place, so it' cant be, etc... although I would argue that we are all in the same place.
    Caledonia Heron: it's totally theatre
    Prospero Frobozz: It's certainly different from pre-recorded machinima.
    Prospero Frobozz: There's all the fear of live theater :) Plus additional fear from technical issues....
    Caledonia Heron: I can see the tech issues... but gosh, even right now we're engaged in theatre and if you want to open the scope, our *entire* lives are theatre.... sounds like hair splitting.... the province of academia :)
    Prospero Frobozz: Heh

    Vocabulary and definitions...

    Prospero Frobozz: Well, we all need our definitions...
    Caledonia Heron: sure, that's how we parse stuff
    Prospero Frobozz: Indeed.
    Prospero Frobozz: And, if you're a post-modernist, you assert that there's no reality other than the defintions which we impose upon reality :)
    Kelwen Landar: may i butt in and ask if you have a LM or any other information, please Prospero...
    Caledonia Heron: hi Fael :)
    Prospero Frobozz: Kelwen, yes --
    Fael Illyar: Hi Cal :)
    Kelwen Landar: thank you!
    Kelwen Landar: hello Fael
    Fael Illyar: Hi Kelwen, Prospero :)
    Prospero Frobozz: Hi!
    Caledonia Heron: yes, post-modern and other factions also :)
    Prospero Frobozz: Sometimes making defintions and classifying things is necessary to make progress... gives us somewhere to start.
    Prospero Frobozz: The classic example I can think of most easily is supernova classification, since I worked in that field for several years :)
    Caledonia Heron: yes, a springboard, a place to say yes or no
    Fael Illyar: Hi Gaya :)
    Prospero Frobozz: After a while, though, the definitions can start to get in the way.... E.g. a Type Ib and Ic supernova is more like a Type II supernova than a Type Ia supernova.... but originally there was just Type I and Type II
    Prospero Frobozz: Look at Pluto!
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Prospero Frobozz: Pluto is the same as what it always was, but there was a LOT of angst over definitions that brought it in or out of the "planet" category
    Caledonia Heron: lol, yes hair splitting, atom splitting, supernova splitting.... ever finer degrees of granularity :)
    Kelwen Landar: hello Gaya
    Prospero Frobozz: I'm not sure supernovae are granular :)
    Caledonia Heron: hi Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nice to see you again Kelwen
    Caledonia Heron: lol, uh-oh, here we go
    Kelwen Landar: you too
    Caledonia Heron: let's say granular concepts :)

    All part of the continuum...

    Caledonia Heron: this morning we have a good mix of time regarding visiting pab.... some have come many times, some a few, some two :)
    Prospero Frobozz: I've only been here three or four myself... who else is relatively new?
    Kelwen Landar: I am...
    Caledonia Heron: Kelwen is new-ish
    Kelwen Landar: brand new lol
    Caledonia Heron: Fael and Gaya have been with pab quite a while
    Kelwen Landar: and to SL really..
    Caledonia Heron: I have been here since day 1
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Caledonia Heron: gosh, that makes me ancient :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar: it's nice being ancient ... sometimes :)
    Caledonia Heron: lol, I'll look at it as a venerated elder, an old child :) [not! - need sarcasm emoticon]
    Prospero Frobozz: Heh
    Gaya Ethaniel looks up at Cal in awe
    Caledonia Heron: phooey
    Prospero Frobozz: I am old, but not mature... :)
    Caledonia Heron: :)
    Caledonia Heron: my husband says he's immature for his age :)
    Caledonia Heron: one of the variations of the 9sec experiment is to look at appearance as a presentation by being
    Prospero Frobozz: I don't think I understand what you mean
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Caledonia Heron: I had a very sad event occur and I was looking at it like that for a bit ... not sure it made sense or lifted anything but was valuable nonetheless

    A stab at describing noticing 9secs and appearance as a presentation of being...

    Caledonia Heron: mmm, let's see if I can capture it ... help me out Fael and Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods. If I can
    Caledonia Heron: the 9sec exercise is to drop what you are doing, drop everything, and notice what that is and from there notice that you can also drop the person who did the dropping and notice that also
    Caledonia Heron: and typically, when we engage in that for 9sec on every quarter hour there is a bank of experience that builds and we come here to discuss what we notice
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Caledonia Heron: so, moving on from that....
    Fael Illyar: that sounds pretty well put :)
    Kelwen Landar: i'm so confused :(
    Caledonia Heron: we can notice that when we experience that, we could call it anything and for the purposes of this discussion we'll call it "being"
    Caledonia Heron: when we experience "being" it can encompass many things and we can notice that everything is being, everything we see, do, the physical world and we can then open ourselves to the experience that everything that appears to us is a presentation of being
    Caledonia Heron: keep me honest here Fael and Gaya ... anything to add?
    Faenik: could be
    Caledonia Heron: lol

    And a little bit more...

    Caledonia Heron: so, the variation on 9sec is to notice that appearance is also a presentation of being
    Kelwen Landar: so what are we thinking during the 9 seconds.... thinking about how we were feeling at that time, or in general, or about something else?! like something that may be bothering us? sorry... im just confused
    Caledonia Heron: and to circle back, I was applying that to an experience I had the other day
    Caledonia Heron: sure Kelwen, it can show up in all kinds of ways
    Prospero Frobozz: I had an interesting conversation with Tess Linden at SLCC that touches on appearance as being....
    Caledonia Heron: we take those experiences, we can write them down, we can talk about them here
    Caledonia Heron: it is a form of meditation
    Kelwen Landar: i think thats the bit i'm not grasping..
    Kelwen Landar: where it changes from what my vision of mediation was..
    Caledonia Heron: a kind of "short cut" if you will - about starting from the position that we are already enlightened and don't have to spend a million years thinking about enlightenment to be enlightened :)

    On the notion that SL avatars are related to appearance as being..

    Caledonia Heron: tell us about the discussion with Tess if you can Prospero :)
    Prospero Frobozz: It has to do with appearances of people's avatars. Many of us choose either fanciful avatars, or human avatars that are more attractive than we are in real life... e.g. although I have the bald spot with my avatar, my avatar is substantially trimmer than I am in real life....
    Prospero Frobozz: Any interesting counter-example is Rob Linden. If you look at his profile, you'll see that his avatar looks like the 50's corporate drone nerd. Dumpy, squinted eyes, short, thick-framed glasses, etc.
    Faenik: why not?
    Prospero Frobozz: Whereas in real life, he looks like a normal guy.
    Caledonia Heron: interesting how we present our being to each other in sl :)
    Prospero Frobozz: His avatar is much *less* attractive than his real-life appearance.
    Caledonia Heron: maybe I should make a little troll :)
    Prospero Frobozz: Tess, however, was saying that she thought Rob looked like his avatar -- which made him say, "hey, thanks a lot!!"
    Caledonia Heron: lol
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Kelwen Landar: i'll admit to trying to make Kelwen as much like me as possible... altho i dont wear my wings as often in rl, and my hair isnt quite as full lol
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Prospero Frobozz: I talked to Tess a bit about that, and she says that she frequently thinks that people who have human avatars look like their avatars; she said that she thought I looked like my Prospero Linden avatar, whom I think looks quite different from me.
    Faenik loves wells!
    Kelwen Landar: (and i got to choose the nose i'd like in rl)
    Prospero Frobozz: It probably has to do with mental associations -- she associates the name with a pair of appearances, and in her mind the appearances merge.
    Caledonia Heron: your av looks like an approximation of you imo :)

    Merging appearances, merging being...

    Caledonia Heron: yes, I think that is interesting amount merging appearances
    Fael Illyar: It's often easier to see how others look like their AVs than how you look like your AV.
    Caledonia Heron: like when people put their rl and sl pics side by side
    Caledonia Heron: you can see it right there
    Caledonia Heron: lol, true Fael :)
    Prospero Frobozz: Philip, I think it was, at the SLCC breakfast talk said that he thinks our avatars are a *truer* representation of who we are than our physical appearance... since we *choose* our avatars.
    Fael Illyar: it took me a few months before I started spotting the resemblance.
    Fael Illyar: well, it wasn't always there though
    Caledonia Heron: yes, who we represent ourselves to be, our idealized being
    Gaya Ethaniel: Seems that people unconsciouly make AVs similar to their RL selves
    Prospero Frobozz: I consciously tried to make this SL avatar resemble me in real life; I bought the skin because it had the beard pretty close. It's a bit redder than my real beard, but even though I have brown hair my beard has a little red in it.
    Caledonia Heron: I tried to make mine similar on purpose .... perhaps successful :)
    Gaya Ethaniel saw a few friends getting shocked when pointed out even on different gendered AVs
    Prospero Frobozz: But, I didn't put my full weight on this avatar.... :)
    Caledonia Heron: it's your "fighting weight" :)
    Prospero Frobozz: I think this avatar is taller, too, but that's because the default avatars in SL are very tall, and *everybody* tends to be tall in SL.
    Prospero Frobozz: heh
    Caledonia Heron: apparently my av is over 6 feet tall
    Prospero Frobozz: When I detach the saucer section, you mean? :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Facial features are most telling in terms of similarities between SL and RL appearances
    Caledonia Heron: ha
    Caledonia Heron: yes, the face for sure Gaya :)
    Prospero Frobozz: Yeah... in reality, I think it means that the scale of Second Life isn't 1m:1m... 1 SL m = 1.1 real m or some such

    How what you see and what others see is different, even when observing the same person or thing...

    Gaya Ethaniel: One perhaps looks at oneself most
    Caledonia Heron: but what you see in the mirror isn't what you see in say a photograph
    Prospero Frobozz thinks his head isn't round enough compared to his RL self, looking at his AV again
    Caledonia Heron: you don't ever know what you really look like
    Prospero Frobozz: ....and what you see in a photograph isn't what other people see either.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Caledonia Heron: right - so what is real?
    Kelwen Landar: I made sure i had help to change Kelwen, an objective view on if we looked the same :)
    Kelwen Landar: it is hard to tell yourself
    Prospero Frobozz: Well, on one very prosaic level, you could make measurements of dimensions and describe the physical shape down to the millimeter, and say that that's reality.
    Caledonia Heron: if what we see isn't it, and what is photographed isn't it, and what people see is different isn't it ... it's all made up
    Prospero Frobozz: But that reality isn't necessarily all that relevant to how we interact with each other as people.
    Caledonia Heron: right!
    Kelwen Landar: quite
    Caledonia Heron: so it starts boiling down to how we be with each other, how we treat each other, how we communicate
    Prospero Frobozz: Also how we treat ourselves, how we bear ourselves.
    Caledonia Heron: yes! indeed

    Friendships in SL may be initially based on the shared experience of SL...

    Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps that's why we make friends much faster in SL than RL
    Kelwen Landar: that was what i was about to say Gaya..
    Caledonia Heron: perhaps Gaya
    Kelwen Landar: seems that you get to know someone from the inside out
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel: No distractions such as appearances...
    Caledonia Heron: I don't make friends easily in rl and have many acquaintances in sl but not real deep friends
    Fael Illyar: Yes, SL has that effect, somehow :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Depends on how one is in SL I guess Cal
    Caledonia Heron: perhaps so Gaya
    Prospero Frobozz: I *suspect* that part of the reason it's easier to make friends in SL is that we have the shared experience of SL.... the new user experience is challenging, and one thing that makes us sad at Linden Lab is how few users who sample SL stick with it after the first hour or so..... Those of us who have stuck with it have that shared experience, even if not shared at the same time, and thus we have something in common a priori.
    Prospero Frobozz: Re: deep friends vs. acquaintances, that's something that very interesting to think about; I don't think about it a lot these days, but did when I was a lot younger.
    Kelwen Landar: i definitely wanted to give up after the first hour..
    Caledonia Heron: yes Pros, I suspect that is true also .... a common ground of being... what it takes to be here, what it's like to be here
    Kelwen Landar: i'm glad i didnt now though
    Prospero Frobozz: Yeah, that's one of the things Linden really wants to improve... help people get past that first hour, or those first few hours, so they can realize the value in being here before they get put off by the challenge and frustration.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Caledonia Heron: sure, makes sense
    Caledonia Heron: I think the people who stick with it are "potential" people
    Kelwen Landar: I remember just feeling stranded wherever it was i 'landed' and not having a clue what to do next
    Caledonia Heron: by that I mean... they can see things and immediately grasp the potential of it
    Fael Illyar: I find the high learning curve to sort of increase the average ... umm, I wonder what
    Prospero Frobozz: Fael : perhaps the average understanding of the potential of the medium...!
    Prospero Frobozz: Riffing from Cal.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Caledonia Heron: :)

    What makes people "stick" with SL?...

    Fael Illyar had a friend introduce her here.
    Fael Illyar: a few hours of crash course.
    Prospero Frobozz: Yes, that's the best way to do it.
    Prospero Frobozz: For many people, at least.
    Gaya Ethaniel didn't know anyone... Dakini's tea house made her stay initially
    Kelwen Landar: it seems it would be easier that way
    Prospero Frobozz: I did it by banging through myself, but I've long been one to bang through and play with computer things myself.
    Caledonia Heron: my 1st experiences in sl were spastic and unrefined but I could see the future of it .... an omg kind of thing and I stuck with it
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Kelwen Landar: I did it alone too, although i'm that way anyway
    Fael Illyar: the critical thing is to find something you like in SL that keeps you here.
    Caledonia Heron: I was touring a new av around and noticing how differently they approach the things inworld than I do now... like an experimenting kid ... as compared to me buzzing around here and there, tcb
    Gaya Ethaniel nods, like PaB
    Kelwen Landar: i'd agree with that Fael

    How it went at first...

    Fael Illyar: for me, somehow, at first getting my AV up into shape was enough at first.
    Prospero Frobozz: Fael : yes, I enjoyed playing with my apperance too.
    Prospero Frobozz: And, early on, spent a lot of time trolling freebie places to see what toys were out there.
    Caledonia Heron: yay freebies!!
    Fael Illyar: I did that too
    Prospero Frobozz: (I was a SL resident before I started working for Linden Lab.)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar: but got bored looking around those fast
    Caledonia Heron: lol, even Lindens are residents Pros :)
    Prospero Frobozz: Yeah, although some more so than others :) But there are some Lindens who dont' really know or use SL before they start at LL.
    Caledonia Heron: their avs put on their pants one leg at a time too
    Caledonia Heron: ah, ok, I see :)
    Fael Illyar has rather high expectation of things in general.
    Prospero Frobozz: Huh... I put on my pants with but a single right-click and selection of "wear".....
    Kelwen Landar: hahahaha
    Caledonia Heron: ha ha, you know what I mean :)

    If wishes were avatars, then avatars would fly.... oh yeah, we can fly :) and tp, and alt-zoom and ...

    Prospero Frobozz wishes he could alt-zoom in real life
    Fael Illyar: Hi Wol :)
    Kelwen Landar: i wish i could fly...
    Caledonia Heron: me too!!
    Wol Euler: hello everyone
    Kelwen Landar: sooo unfair..
    Kelwen Landar: Hi
    Caledonia Heron: alt-zoom, tp, fly ... the whole she-bang
    Faenik: could be
    Caledonia Heron: hey there Wol :)
    Kelwen Landar: TP *needs* to become a reality..
    Wol Euler grins.
    Prospero Frobozz: At my play yesterday, a professor from Bryn Mawr had four students from her class there. They were clearly new to SL... at the end of the play, I said that if you wanted to come talk to the cast, come backstage. The easiest way to get there was to fly up over the top of the stage... and then I did that. One of the students said, "We can fly??"
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Caledonia Heron: lol
    Kelwen Landar: lolol
    Caledonia Heron: my new av said that too!
    Kelwen Landar: yeh, thats what i was thinking
    Kelwen Landar: that discovery is immense lol
    Faenik loves wells!
    Prospero Frobozz: Kelwen : the thing about TP being a reality is that it removes distance, and sometimes distance can be a handy thing in real life... e.g. living at a substantial travel-time distance from your parents or in-laws.... :)
    Caledonia Heron: lol, for sure
    Kelwen Landar: i'd agree totally with that
    Kelwen Landar: especially at the moment...
    Caledonia Heron: but the good reasons for tp outweigh the bad
    Kelwen Landar: but there are places id love to be able to just *poof* into, or people i could 'run' to...

    SL as a virtual witness protection program...

    Prospero Frobozz: Indeed, in the early days (before I was in SL), TPs only took you to telehubs, after which you had to fly or walk to where you wanted to go. TPing anywhere has perhaps made the grid less of a grid, more disjointed, because people don't pass by areas on the way to other places so much any more.
    Fael Illyar: if tp was reality, we could no longer run from unpleasant relatives :)
    Fael Illyar: we'd have to do something about it
    Prospero Frobozz: You can Hide, but you can't Run
    Caledonia Heron: oh yeah, I see that
    Prospero Frobozz: You can't register an alt in real life to be online incognito :)
    Kelwen Landar: worth a try tho ;)
    Caledonia Heron: witness protection program :)
    Kelwen Landar: hehe
    Kelwen Landar: have you met my Father??!
    Prospero Frobozz: Yeah, but that's kinda one-way :) My wife and I sometimes joke about going into that so that our parents can't find us :)
    Kelwen Landar: *shocked face*
    Caledonia Heron: Vinnie?
    Kelwen Landar: lol
    Kelwen Landar: i think I'd consider it too..
    Caledonia Heron: awww, they just want to be with you :)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles

    La Vida Ludic ... A life of play...

    Prospero Frobozz: Cal, did you go to the "La Vida Ludic" talk at SLCC? That's another one that touched on the nature of being, and how the metaverse alters our own personal notions of identity and being.
    Faenik: why not?
    Wol Euler looks up "SLCC
    Caledonia Heron: about how our thoughts of ourselves and avs are represented
    Prospero Frobozz: SLCC = Second Life Community Convention, which was 1.5 weeks ago.
    Wol Euler: ah, ty
    Caledonia Heron: I wonder that as more time passes, the more inworld we are, the less able we are to notice the differences/sameness of our two "beings" - the rl and sl selves
    Wol Euler nods. I do find them overlapping more and more.
    Caledonia Heron: particularly for those of us who use sl in an augmentation kind of way
    Faenik: why not?
    Prospero Frobozz: Well, the very choice of the term avatar is telling :)
    Prospero Frobozz: avatar = one's incarnation into another world. From the heavens to the earth, or from the real world to the virtual world....
    Caledonia Heron: incarnation .... heavy trappings there :)
    Prospero Frobozz: I'm always a little taken aback when I hear somebody talking about SL as a game, or talking about how they "play" SL... of course, here we're about "play as being", but I don't know that you really *can* "play" SL when you use "play" as a transitive verb with SL as the object.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods... heavy indeed
    Caledonia Heron: yeah, different kind of play :)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Caledonia Heron: to me if someone calls sl a game I think they don't get it
    Fael Illyar: people thinking SL a game always sort of take me aback too
    Wol Euler: true, cal.
    Fael Illyar: but yes, anyone who thinks SL a game, doesn't get it :)
    Prospero Frobozz: Those who aren't familiar with it group it with things like World of Warcraft... which has some technological similarities, yes, but it's really a different thing.
    Gaya Ethaniel: But it's up to the individual how one uses SL, how deeply they get invovled...
    Gaya Ethaniel: No right or wrong there...
    Caledonia Heron: so, is being say, gorean a game?
    Prospero Frobozz: Gaya : indeed... and there are lots of people who deliberately roleplay, assume a different personal in SL, say that "what happens in SL stays in SL", and consider that persona to be something that they "play" which is different from their RL life.
    Fael Illyar: theoretically complete freedom to use SL the way you want.
    Fael Illyar: in practice not too complete though :)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods

    How much of RL permeates or transfers to SL, how real is it?...

    Prospero Frobozz: I'm augmentationist myself... from the very beginning I've been open about my real life, and Prospero Frobozz has been Rob Knop's projection into Second Life.
    Wol Euler: my alt is a Mentor, he hangs about where the newborns first arrive. About a quarter of them are only interested in cybersex, it's all they have heard of and all they want to know about.
    Caledonia Heron: can you be unfaithful in sl? is that a game?
    Prospero Frobozz: I *do* have a Secret Alt who is a woman, and while I'm open about being a married 40 year old man in real life, I don't reveal my true identity.
    Prospero Frobozz: Caledonia : I would say, yes, you can be unfaithful... although the mere act of playing out sex doesn't necessarily make you so. It depends what your RL partner thinks, and what *you* think about it.
    Caledonia Heron: lol, it's getting more complicated
    Gaya Ethaniel: Cal... again that depends on how that individual uses SL and his/her views on stuff really...
    Fael Illyar is about to create an alt that actually matches her RL gender.
    Prospero Frobozz: Wol : yeah, it's very true. Somebody in support told me that back during the days of live help, "How do you have sex?" was the most common question :)
    Caledonia Heron: sure, I've heard it asked before ... wondering about how it lines up with the game theme
    Caledonia Heron: wow Fael - it will be great to meet that av also :)
    Wol Euler: wow :-)
    Caledonia Heron: Did support tell them Pros? :)
    Caledonia Heron: ha ha, kidding
    Caledonia Heron: too much information :)
    Prospero Frobozz: Heh

    Doing the woohoo.... does it count? ...

    Prospero Frobozz: So, if you're playing "The Sims", and two of your sims do the "Woohoo" thing (their euphemism), that's pretty clearly *not* being unfaithful, because it very clearly is a game.
    Caledonia Heron: lol, sure
    Prospero Frobozz: But in SL... context can make a huge difference, and how you approach it makes a difference.
    Caledonia Heron: woohoo!
    Prospero Frobozz: If I were to engage in cybersex as Prospero Frobozz, it *would* be me being unfaithful.
    Caledonia Heron: yeah, a lot more nuance in sl
    Wol Euler nods. This av is _me_, that is different to the Sims.
    Caledonia Heron: yes, I would agree ... sex is in the head no matter what your body is telling you :)
    Prospero Frobozz: 'course there are other kinds of unfaithful.
    Prospero Frobozz: E.g., the first time I did a play with SLSC, I listed my name on the credits for the play as "Prospero Linden"... and got chided for that, misuse of a work avatar, etc. etc. etc.
    Wol Euler: hmmm
    Caledonia Heron: or being unfaithful to your true wants or needs, or unfaithful to your work ethic... lots of ways
    Prospero Frobozz: I live la vida ludic -- I don't like to have to compartmentalize out work and play. Yeah, it's clear that there are some things that are 100% work (many meetings, grant proposals, etc.), some things that are 100% play, but much of what I do is me being me and somewhere in between.
    Caledonia Heron: untrue to yourself is a form of unfaithful
    Faenik: could be
    Prospero Frobozz: Plus, I had this idea that the Lindens were *supposed* to be interacting in world, sharing the experience of the residents, etc... and they are, but the problem here was the apperance that Linden Lab was endorsing the SLSC or some such.
    Caledonia Heron: yeah, I think it is more ludic than compartment
    Caledonia Heron: I support that position.... I think it is healthier for linden's to be an integral part of sl society
    Caledonia Heron: not some lionized group... omg, there's a demi-god thing
    Prospero Frobozz: Avatars are interesting things... I identify with Prospero Linden, I think of that as one of the projections of Me into this world, not as a work account, a "company car" whose use I've been given for purposes of my job, even though I suspect that legally that account is much more like the latter.
    Wol Euler: I was surprised not to meet them in-world, actually.
    Prospero Frobozz: Wol : well, the real reason now is that there are 300 lindens and 500,000 or some such active residents.
    Caledonia Heron: yeah, you'd think they'd come around more often
    Prospero Frobozz: To meet them in world, you sort of have to seek them out nowadays-- go to office hours, etc.
    Wol Euler: and far too many places where one might be. true enough.
    Caledonia Heron: yeah, the ratio is skewed now :)

    You never know who you're talking to...or do you? ...

    Prospero Frobozz: And, you may have met some without realizing it :) Lots of Lindens (especially on the support side, and really especially in G-team) keep the fact that they are a Linden hidden when they're in-world as an alt.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah
    Wol Euler: aaah
    Prospero Frobozz: Ironically, it's the support folks who are more likely to have active alts :)
    Caledonia Heron: yeah for sure .... I can reveal that I am a visiting alien AND a linden :)
    Prospero Frobozz: heh
    Caledonia Heron: kidding ... at least partially :)
    Wol Euler: I would hope so! I would hope that htey are in-world with us, experiencing lag and asset server problems for themselves.
    Prospero Frobozz: Oh, yeah, we know all about that kind of stuff :/
    Wol Euler: (and the joys of course :-)
    Caledonia Heron: yeah and besides the problems, really *feeling* it ... what it's like for us at any given time
    Prospero Frobozz: The thing is -- that "us" is very heterogeneous nowadays.
    Caledonia Heron: indeed
    Wol Euler: mmhmm


    Prospero Frobozz: I should probably head out -- we've got this Landstore 2.01 deploys starting in an hour, which I'm not really working on but will be on the fringes of. Have a few things to take care of before then.
    Prospero Frobozz: Interesting discussion! Have fun, all.
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Caledonia Heron: yes :) glad you all came :)
    Wol Euler: thanks, prospero, it was nice meeting you.
    Caledonia Heron: bye Pros :)
    Kelwen Landar: Bye
    Prospero Frobozz: Nice meeting you too!
    Prospero Frobozz waves generally
    Fael Illyar: See you later Prospero :)
    Fael Illyar: See you later Cal :)
    Caledonia Heron: I have another destination also - it was great to see you all :)
    Wol Euler: bye cal, take care.
    Kelwen Landar: bye
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Wol Euler: I should get back to the autologging too, so goodbye eveyone.
    Caledonia Heron: Fael - I told Kelwen about the wings you make .... she may like to see them :)
    Fael Illyar: See you later Wol :)
    Kelwen Landar: bye wol
    Caledonia Heron: bye Wol :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: well, I'm wearing my wings :)
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Kelwen Landar: theyre lovely!
    Fael Illyar: haven't made very many yet
    Caledonia Heron: yes - I meant the clicky part :)
    Caledonia Heron: bye!!
    Fael Illyar: they react to clicking :)

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