2008.09.21 13:00 - The Good, the Bad, and the Politicians

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    The guardian for this meeting was maxine Walden and the comments are hers.

    By the time I got to the Pavilion Adelene and Wol were already there.

      Adelene Dawner: 'lo Max. :)
      Wol Euler: ty adelene
      Adelene Dawner: did I miss anything?
      Maxine Walden: Hi, Adelene and Wol
      Wol Euler: oh, hello maxine.
      Wol Euler: Adelene, just reading htat now

    Thinking that they were referring to the guardian meeting of this morning I soon realized that we were indifferent conversations, so interesting to re-discover evidence of different worlds again and again. Soon Adams and Fael join us.

    Maxine Walden: At the meeting this morning?
    Adelene Dawner: no, no - we're working on the autologger. I just gave Wol a copy of my to-do lis 

    Maxine Walden: oh, sorry, wrong conversation!
      Adelene Dawner: ^.^
      Wol Euler: lol
      Wol Euler: Adelene, that looks pretty complete to me.
      Adelene Dawner: ^.^
      Maxine Walden: I am so impressed with you who are so computer literate in these ways; such a help to the rest of us
      Wol Euler: hi adams
      Maxine Walden: Hi, Adams
      Wol Euler: awww (blushes)
      Adelene Dawner chuckles.
      Adams Dubrovna: Hello Wol, Maxine, Adelene :)
      Adams Dubrovna: Hello Fael :)
      Gaya Ethaniel is Offline
      Maxine Walden: hi Fael
      Wol Euler: (I am watching the recorders, I may be slow to respond)
      Wol Euler: hello fael

     Still trying to catch up with the more computer literate among us I ask about the auto-recorder


      Maxine Walden: are we autorecording today?
      Wol Euler: no, just testing.
      Maxine Walden: OK, I'll take the chatlog as usual, just checking
      Wol Euler: We hope to go "live" on October 1, but theres is still a lo to do before then.
      Maxine Walden: I can imagine!

    And Quilty and Umbriel come in.


     Adams Dubrovna: Hello Quilty :)
      Maxine Walden: hi, Quilty
      Quilty Bookmite: Hi all.
      Adams Dubrovna: Hello Umbriel :)
      Fael Illyar: Hi Umbriel :)
      Faenik: ah :)
      Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
      Fael Illyar: Hi Quilty :)
      Wol Euler: hello Quilty, Umbriel. Metta.
      Maxine Walden: hi Umbriel
      Faenik: indeed?

    Amidst the silence I then ask about topics of interest


    Maxine Walden: Anyone have anything they would like to bring to us today?
      Adelene Dawner grins impishly. "Not unless you want to hear about how I've finally started to make some sense of politics-in-general..."

    And we soon begin a spirited conversation about politics.  Reminded of that adage about the dangers of discussing politics and religion becoming in terms of people becoming very impassioned about their viewpoints,  it feels most  respectful to let each comment speak for itself.

      Maxine Walden: sure, Adelene, what sense are you making of politics in general?
     Faenik: could be
      Adelene Dawner: Well, a really relevant detail is that I just don't grok assumptions that aren't very closely based on reality. And... well, I've been reading some anarchist writing, and it *is* based on reality in a way that other stuff isn't as far as I can tell... so I see now that it's not so much that I'm incapable of understanding politics as it is that most political stuff is so far from reality that *anyone* would have trouble with it.
      Adelene Dawner: (Which is not to say that I entirely agree with anarchism, either. But it at least makes sense.)
      Maxine Walden: ah...better to have no governance (anarchy) than the 'crazy' stuff the politicians would put forth?
      Adelene Dawner: Not sure.
      Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, that's sort of been my problem with politics as well. It's so far removed from reality that ... I just can't see it as meaningful.
      Adelene Dawner: But at least now I see that it's them being crazy/decietful/not-attached-to-reality, nto me being incompetent.
      Maxine Walden: that is so important, to see where the 'incompetenece' resides
      Adams Dubrovna: Good for you Adelene :)
      Adelene Dawner: yes!
      Umbriel Levenque doesn't see all politician in that light...
      Adams Dubrovna: Well in a democracy, if the people allow the politicians to have garbage accepted, that is what they will get
      Faenik: why not?
      Adelene Dawner: Say more, Um?
      Umbriel Levenque: I have seen politicians who try to do good and some succeed
      Fael Illyar: Yes, luckily there are a couple of politicians I see with a clue(tm) :)
      Maxine Walden: Yes, some think that for a democracy to work the citizenry really have to take responsibility in terms of what is acceptable, make their voices known
      Umbriel Levenque: Tony Ben is one of UK politicians I admire
      Adelene Dawner is now completely lost again :)
      Maxine Walden: where did you get lost Adelene?
      Umbriel Levenque: Well what I mean is... politics/politicians itself/themselves are not inherently 'bad'
      Adelene Dawner: Somewhere around the point where the idea that the fact that some politicians sometimes do good excuses the rest of the system, I think.
      Umbriel Levenque: 'bad' as "crazy/decietful/not-attached-to-reality"
      Adams Dubrovna: Yes Umbriel, current politicians have always seemed the most incompetent
      Umbriel Levenque: Would that be really the case Adams?
      Maxine Walden: Adelene, hang in and maybe we can get some clarity about that pint
      Maxine Walden: that point
      Adams Dubrovna: Except for those who really were incompetent, politicians of the past look better becasue we can see what they accomplished
      Adams Dubrovna: A pint would help this year :)
      Umbriel Levenque: :-)
      Maxine Walden: I would agree, Adams, we have more perspective on the more distant tim es and people
      Maxine Walden: yes, a pint would help!!!
      Umbriel Levenque: ah 'hindsight' Adams
      Adams Dubrovna thinks we have a pretty good candidate this year
      Adams Dubrovna: in US
      Adelene Dawner: Is it really hindsight, or is that the system has had that much longer to whitewash stuff? (honestly asking)
      Adams Dubrovna: Ouch Adelene
      Umbriel Levenque: or looking back, having a longer sight perhaps
      Umbriel Levenque: How one evaluates history...
      Maxine Walden: there might be different thoughts about that Adelene, but we often do hot hear of the quiet successes until much later
      Adams Dubrovna: It takes a hard balanced view, evaluatingwhat worked and what didn'd
      Adams Dubrovna: yes Maxine
      Adelene Dawner: I dunno if I can contribute meaningfully to this conversation yet. I don't have the background for it.
      Adams Dubrovna: In the US, what is important during the elction cycle is usually not what is important about the time in office
      Maxine Walden: I am aware that sometimes I can get to angry at the politicians that my anger fractures my clear thinking and so ironically I then do not have good governance...
      Adams Dubrovna: Hello Steve
      Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
      stevenaia Michinaga: hello
      Maxine Walden: and I can blame that 'bad governance' on them. So I try to not get too upset when I am evaluating them
      Maxine Walden: hi Steve
      Adams Dubrovna: The measure usually is in the person and the people surrounding that person
      Umbriel Levenque would like to hear more from Adelene what she needs in terms of 'background'
      Fael Illyar: Hi Steve :)
      Adelene Dawner: I'm not sure, Umbriel. I've just in the last few days gotten to the point of having any idea of relevant questions to even ask.
      Faenik: indeed?
      Adelene Dawner: I can talk about what I *have* figured out tho.
      Umbriel Levenque: Please tell us Adelene
      stevenaia Michinaga: hello Fael, read much about you but don;t remember if our path's have crossed
      Umbriel Levenque listens
      Maxine Walden: please,Adelene
      Fael Illyar: Steve, not too many times, no :)
      Adelene Dawner: Okay - you do have to understand that I very much come at this stuff from the perspective of a minority-type, which I am by gender and by neurology. I do think that supporting equality is a basic point of government, though... safety and security and a decent life for *everybody*.
      Umbriel Levenque is from 'minority' also...
      Fael Illyar sort of is of a few minorities as well.
      Fael Illyar: (like everyone else)
      Adelene Dawner: And I extend that to all minority groups - if the gov't is doing a sucky job of givign equality to one minority, the same issues are very likely to be affecting other minorities too, though maybe not in exactly the same ways.
      Umbriel Levenque nods at Adelene
      Adelene Dawner: So that's context.
      Adelene Dawner: The thing that I read that made a *lot* of sense and really got me thinking, was about Obama. (you cna string me up later for this if you'd like - I know he's very popular in the internet community)
      Adelene Dawner: It's interesting to find out that he has no plan at all for dealing with racial inequality. And in fact I don't think I've ever heard of him talking about race except in such a way as to convince people that he *won't* be rocking the boat because of his background.
      Adelene Dawner: And that got me thinking.
      Wol Euler surfaces to point out that women are in fact the majority in the US, 50.7% of hte population.
      Adams Dubrovna: Have you read either of his books Adelene?
      Quilty Bookmite: Sorry, was on the phone. Reading back.
      Adelene Dawner: numbers are less important than social power, in this case.
      Wol Euler: true
      Adams Dubrovna: excuse me something wrong
      Adelene Dawner: no, adams - I'll freely admit that I could be wrong about some of this stuff. I haven't had time to really-truly look into it.
      Umbriel Levenque: Sure Quilty
      Adelene Dawner: anyway, continuing...
      Adams Dubrovna: It would be interesting to read either of them, any then any book written by ANY other politician remembering that Obama wrote it himself
      Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
      Adelene Dawner: The issue isn't race per se - if it was, there wouldn't be such strong paralells between those issues and other minority-group issues. It's about culture. And Obama's message has pretty clearly been that he's a member of the majority culture.
      Quilty Bookmite is also an admirer of Tony Ben,
      Umbriel Levenque thinks that Adelene can make a great politician
      Adelene Dawner looks a bit offended at Umbriel ;)
      Umbriel Levenque: :-) was a complement
      Umbriel Levenque: A good politician Adelene
      Quilty Bookmite: I also think anyone who rises to the position of presidential candidate has to sell their soul metaphorically somewhere along the way.
      Adams Dubrovna: Well, they are looking at the map. Obama has the cities
      Umbriel Levenque smiles at Quilty
      Quilty Bookmite: Somehow you have to appeal to the majority of the voting public and you can;t really do that and hold strong principals.
      Adams Dubrovna: Is it really possible that if Obama is elected that he isn;t going to be sensitive to racial issues
      Quilty Bookmite: As an outsider I am interested in the Obama phenomenon but quite wary of it.
      Adelene Dawner: The thing with Obama and race is that he *looks* like a black man. And I get the very strong impression that he's playing that card - giving the impression that by electing him, the race issues will get better. That's why he has the support. But it's an illusion.
      Maxine Walden: what is your view, Quilty
      Adams Dubrovna: That's why it may be useful to read his book, Adelene
      Quilty Bookmite: Obama has to sell out more than anyone because he has to compensate for the fact that a large part of the voting public are basically racist.
      Umbriel Levenque: Perhaps others do look at him as a black man regardless how he sees himself in this regard Adelene?
      Quilty Bookmite: I would love to see a black president. I hope he can do some good though.

      Adelene Dawner: Quilty... my point is that in every relevant way, every way that would affect policy, Obama;s *not* black. If he was, he wouldn't be electable. Culturaly, he's white.
      Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
      Quilty Bookmite: Yes. He can't afford to be "black". :-)
      Adelene Dawner keeps losing her thread here...
      Maxine Walden: Adams, what is the opinion you get from reading his books?
      Maxine Walden: If you care to say.
      Adams Dubrovna: I only read the first one where he goes searching for his roots and also describes his role as a community organizer in Chicago
      Adams Dubrovna: He is not a typical white person and he is not a typical black person
      Adams Dubrovna: he is a very intelligent, articulate man who has his feet planted strongly on the ground
      Adams Dubrovna: In my opinion, IF he is elected, he will begin to convince the American population how stupid their views about race really are
      Faenik loves wells!
      Maxine Walden: My understanding is that he is trying to transcend the various factions and groups, to help people to feel all a part of the same group, as Americans. Now that could feel like he is not looking after one group over another...not sure
      Quilty Bookmite: Do you think the American public want an intelligent person? Seems to me they voted for W because they didn;t want someone smarter than themselves as president.
      Adelene Dawner: Before I lose it again - the other very relevant part about Obama's race is that if he's elected, the system gets to declare itself non-racist, just about permanently, without having to change. And... well, kind-of in a way that'd be true - the literal color of a person's skin wouldn't be relevant any more, in some ways. But the cultural issues, the fact that the majority of black people are still poor and underpriveleged and don't have good ways to get out of that situation, would still be there, and be ignored even more than it is now (if that's even possible).
      Umbriel Levenque: hm... Quilty
      Adams Dubrovna: Quilty, we will find out in thext few weeks
      Umbriel Levenque: I myself marched for 'War Against Iraq' but your view on American politics somewhat... makes me feel uncomfortable
      Adams Dubrovna: Adelene, I think it is a bit more complicated than that. Society changes slowly, each event is a step
      Fael Illyar: Quilty, if that's why they voted for W, they pretty certainly have learned their lesson now :)
      Adams Dubrovna: We are not sure Fael
      Quilty Bookmite: Well, I would favour Obama of the two candidates mainly because I don;t particularly like republicans but also because Sara Palin scares the £$^£^ out of me.
      Adelene Dawner: Yes, Adams - but is this a step forward?
      Adams Dubrovna: Yes, because there are people in America who can't imagine it yet
      Umbriel Levenque: Only time would tell Adelene
      Maxine Walden: have to go in a few minutes, just to say ahead of time
      Adams Dubrovna: When they see, it will be a revale

      Adams Dubrovna: revelation
      Adelene Dawner: mmm... I'd really really disagree, there.
      Maxine Walden: disagree about what, Adelene?
      Faenik loves wells!
      Quilty Bookmite: Well, if Obama gets in America may be able to declare it isn;t racist but not that it isn't sexist.
      Umbriel Levenque: hm... Quilty
      Adams Dubrovna: Quilty, Clinton lost the nomination because of hr support for the war
      Adelene Dawner: A huge part of majority privelege is the privelege of *ignoring* the issues faced by minorities. People won't see unles they're forced, and I don't see Obama being willing to do anything to force that. I see him taking it in the other direction - people will be *more* able to ignore the real injustices, and just say "oh, no, we *can't* be racist, look, we elected a black man"
      Quilty Bookmite: Well, I'm not saying that Clinton should have got it. It's a general point.

    Aware that I had to leave and there were housekeeping issues, such as the chatlog I break into the impassioned discussion.


     Maxine Walden: I am going to have to leave soon and take the chatlog, but this conversation is not over; would someone like to take the chatlog when I go and add it to the one I put on the wiki?
      Quilty Bookmite: I don;t know of any other female candidate in recent years, or ever. Doesn;t that say something?
      Adams Dubrovna: Adelene, there are many people in America who have no contact with people of color. They need to be shown that a really good president can be a person of color
      Umbriel Levenque: brb
      Quilty Bookmite: Sure Maxine.
      Adams Dubrovna: Quilty, that's another subject :)
      Quilty Bookmite: Sorry for the diversion. :-)
      Adelene Dawner: I think you're missing my point, Adams.
      Maxine Walden: Oh, great, Quilty, you can take the rest of the log?
      Quilty Bookmite: Yes.
      Maxine Walden: great. Thanks, I will likely have it on the wiki in a few hours.
      Quilty Bookmite: I will likely add to it tomorrow. :-)
      Maxine Walden: I will go, and look forward to seeing the rest of the spiritied conversation later. Thanks everyone and especially you Quilty for the log addition.
      Adelene Dawner: The skin color thing is a distraction more than it is a real issue. There are real issues of real, real-world inequality that still need *real* change to happen in order to make them right. To most people, having something that they can point to and use as an excuse to deny those real issues means that they'll be less likely to work on them, not more.

    As mentioned it was apparent that this spirited discussion would continue.  I was glad Quilty would append the added log.

    Quilty's addition follows:

    Umbriel Levenque: back
    Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
    Adelene Dawner: cya, Umbriel
    Faenik: could be
    Adams Dubrovna: There are symbolioc things and real things. Things have been going backward in US for a long time. The present administration has done everything it can do to make sure no money can be spent on social rpoblems. It will not be easy to turn around
    Adelene Dawner: mm.
    Quilty Bookmite: One of those points of inequality is that America (and my own country) is ruled basically by white middle aged men.
    Adams Dubrovna: We saw a similar period 100 years ago
    Adelene Dawner: I think this is a rooty question: Is it right that the only way a black man can be successful in this country is by turning his back on his culture?
    Quilty Bookmite: It's not right but how do you change it? Change like that takes a very long time.
    Adams Dubrovna: I don't think he is Adelene
    Quilty Bookmite: It is a step in the right direction though. It's not so long ago a black president would have been completely unthinkable.
    Adams Dubrovna: We have a blueprint the way it happened 100 years ago
    Adelene Dawner: Adams, I'm not sure if you're right or not, so I really can't talk about that.
    Adams Dubrovna: The inequality between rich and poor must be bridged for both groups to flourish
    Adelene Dawner: Quilty - I donno. I think this is jumping the gun. Like I said, I could see this turning into an excuse *not* to keep making progress on those issues.
    Adams Dubrovna: Adelene, Black or white, it has been a long time since I have felt the way I feel about Obama as a candidate.
    Adams Dubrovna: The question is whether he will be elected. The other side has run a very cynical campaign but have you noticed Obama doesn;t scare
    Quilty Bookmite: From the outside the Obama phenomenon just looks like hype, but then most presidential candidacies do.
    Fael Illyar: This is exactly why I generally am not very interested in talking about politics. People keep talking about unimportant things like skin color. :)
    Quilty Bookmite: You're right Fael but in this case skin colour may determine who wins.
    Adelene Dawner grins at Fael. "It's important because this society has made it so. I'm with you that it very much shouldn't be - but as long as society mistreats some people based on it, it is."
    Adams Dubrovna: I think Adelene raises very valid points. I have tied to show a different side of it
    Adams Dubrovna: tired
    Quilty Bookmite: Politics is a twisted thing. It rarely addresses the real issues because they are too sensitive.
    Adams Dubrovna: tried
    Adelene Dawner nods at Adams. "I'll have to read back. My brain's going sideways again; I'm having trouble keeping up. I do think you said some interesting things along the way tho."
    Wol Euler surfaces to point at her watch. It's time for the group meeting now.
    Fael Illyar always sees politicians bending over backwards avoiding having a view on something while appearing to have the view the one listening has.
    Adams Dubrovna: I would recommend his first book or the econd which lays out what he wants to do
    Quilty Bookmite: It's the PaB meeting? Now?
    Wol Euler: I believe so. Sunday 2pm??
    Wol Euler: (me checks her e-mail again.
    Quilty Bookmite: thought it was usually 8 a.m. because I usually miss it.
    Fael Illyar: yes, Guardian meeting is 8am
    Current Continuous-shot Popgun (drag onto yourself) whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
    Current Continuous-shot Popgun (drag onto yourself) whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
    Wol Euler: oh damn.
    Wol Euler: sorry, carry on!
    Fael Illyar had to miss it this time because of her mother's birthday.
    Adams Dubrovna: Happy Birthday Fael's mother :)
    Quilty Bookmite: 4 p.m. for me and I'm usually out doing something.
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes. Happy birthday. :-)
    Current Continuous-shot Popgun (drag onto yourself) whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
    Current Continuous-shot Popgun (drag onto yourself) whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
    Quilty Bookmite: Today I was at a childrens birthday party.
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Fael Illyar: Well, I'm back at home already :)
    Wol Euler ducks and cowers.
    Quilty Bookmite: What was that? :-)
    Adelene Dawner chuckles. "Sorry, I have some scripting I need to work on and I was testing it out."
    Fael Illyar ponders about Adelene's popgun.
    Quilty Bookmite: Some sort of cannon?
    Fael Illyar: well, seems to work
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Quilty Bookmite: I guess the politics is over then. :-)
    Fael Illyar: yes, so it seems
    Adams Dubrovna is sheepish about getting on his high horse
    Adelene Dawner: No worries, Adams.
    Quilty Bookmite: Don't be Adams.
    Quilty Bookmite: I rarely get down from it these days. :-)
    Quilty Bookmite gets saddle sore.
    Adams Dubrovna: The gun tooting hockey mom from Alaska scares me too
    Adelene Dawner: Yeah, I *really* don't like that side.
    Adams Dubrovna: toting not ttoing :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes, it is a shame that for a woman to be powerful politically they have to be so scarey *ahem* Thatcher *ahem*
    Adams Dubrovna: On the women leaders, I haven't been able to identify a woman who has led a democracy that was not a parliament system. Am I wrong?
    Fael Illyar: well, that's what you get as long as most people allowed to vote are mostly just concerned with apperances.
    Adelene Dawner: That was pretty much my point entirely, Quilty - any minority person has to act very much in accord with the status quo in order to fit into it.
    Quilty Bookmite: Can't think of one.
    Adams Dubrovna: That will change too soon though
    Quilty Bookmite: And women are a minority. :-)
    Current Continuous-shot Popgun (drag onto yourself) whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
    Current Continuous-shot Popgun (drag onto yourself) whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
    Adams Dubrovna: uh oh
    Adams Dubrovna: Adelene is ready for Palin
    Adelene Dawner: heheheh
    Quilty Bookmite: Fighting fire with fire?
    Fael Illyar "fought" anger with love today.
    Quilty Bookmite: How did it go Fael?
    Fael Illyar: anger vanished
    Quilty Bookmite: Good. :-)
    Fael Illyar: (my stepbrother, a few years old was rather angry a bit before my mother's birthday party started)
    Fael Illyar: uh, halfbrother
    Fael Illyar is getting a bit tired and mixing up words it seems
    Fael Illyar: seems all he wanted was some acceptance :)
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Seems quite reasonable. :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: Especially to a young child.
    Wol Euler: I'm sorry to hve been away the whole time, but I'll hvae to leave now. Enjoy the rest of hte day, everyone.
    Quilty Bookmite: Bye Wol.
    Fael Illyar: See you later Wol :)
    Adams Dubrovna: bhye Wol :)
    Wol Euler: I look forward to reading the log and getting hte full flavour of what you were talking baout :-)
    Wol Euler: bye!
    Adams Dubrovna: Uh oh. I think Adelene sees Republicans
    Quilty Bookmite: Where?
    Adams Dubrovna: seem to be on all sides
    Adelene Dawner: hehehe
    Fael Illyar wonders if she's blind for not seeing much difference between republicans and democrats.
    Quilty Bookmite: We'll fight them with Love. :-)
    Leilani Muircastle is Online
    Adelene Dawner: You're not the only one by a long shot, Fael.
    Fael Illyar is not surprised.
    Quilty Bookmite: I think the difference is marginal. :-)
    Adams Dubrovna is holding down his horse
    Quilty Bookmite: I'm told that in the past the Democrats have been more right wing that the Republicans.
    Quilty Bookmite: You have to understand Adams that to many Europeans American politics looks pretty right wing.
    Adams Dubrovna: It dies ti many Americans too Quilty
    Adams Dubrovna: because it is
    Quilty Bookmite: That's a relief. :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: So it's a choice of one right wing party or another.
    Adams Dubrovna: No
    Quilty Bookmite: Here it's a choice of 3 middle of the road parties, one of which will likely never get in power.
    Adams Dubrovna: If W had not been oresident, Tony Blair would not have taken the UK into Iraq
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes, that's true.
    Quilty Bookmite: And we hate Blair because of it.
    Adams Dubrovna: yes
    Adams Dubrovna: Seems rather unfair but then he had a choice too
    Current Continuous-shot Popgun (drag onto yourself) whispers: Use Mouselook (press 'M') to shoot me.
    Current Continuous-shot Popgun (drag onto yourself) whispers: Choose 'Detach' from my menu to take me off.
    Quilty Bookmite: He joined the war in order to try and have some influence over W. In the end it was futile.
    Adams Dubrovna: yes
    Quilty Bookmite: I sometimes wonder if a British Prime Minister has any choice at all when it comes to American foreign policy.
    Adams Dubrovna: The US could have been isolated
    Adams Dubrovna: It had a bad effect on more thsan one gov't who followed the US policy
    Quilty Bookmite: Britain seems to be obliged to go along with whatever the President decides.
    Adams Dubrovna: It dosn't appear that way from this side of the pond :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes, the Spanish government lost out badly too.
    Adams Dubrovna: Many Americans too were disappointed in Blair
    Quilty Bookmite: There is a special relationship between Britan and America.
    Adams Dubrovna: yes
    Quilty Bookmite: America says jump and we say How high?
    Adams Dubrovna: We revolted because we had no representation; now the situation is reversed. Americans would think Britaun has a choice :)
    Quilty Bookmite: I think they would be wrong. :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: Until very recently Britan was very indebted to America. We paid back the monetary debt but something still remains.
    Adams Dubrovna: I think that would be British politics :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes.
    Adams Dubrovna thinks US is indebted to almost everyone now
    Quilty Bookmite: But you have to understand British politics to understand why we joined the war.
    Adams Dubrovna: yes, Quilty
    Quilty Bookmite: Yes, but the American president doesn't think so. :-)
    Fael Illyar quietly excuses herself.
    Adams Dubrovna: bye fael :)
    Adelene Dawner: cya Fael
    Quilty Bookmite: Well, I must go. Maybe we can discuss British politics another time. :-)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Adams Dubrovna knows little about British politics
    Adams Dubrovna: bye Quilty
    Quilty Bookmite: I can educate you. :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: I'm joking of course
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Goodnight.
    Adams Dubrovna: goodnight
    Della Sweetwater is Offline
    Adelene Dawner: 'night Quilty

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