2008.09.30 13:00 - Time, Space, and Memory

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     The Guardian this session was genesis Zhangsun.  The comments below are hers.

     I arrived to Bill and two white clouds called Adelene and Corvi

    Adelene Dawner: Gen! Corvus! Bill! :D
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey All
    Solobill Laville: Hey, friends!
    Solobill Laville: I TP'ed just as Adelene was...
    genesis Zhangsun: everything is rezzing very slowly for me
    Solobill Laville: And I had the tremendous vision of her rezzing right in front of me!
    Solobill Laville: piece - by - piece :)
    Adelene Dawner chuckles.
    genesis Zhangsun: is it like this for everything?
    genesis Zhangsun: oops everyone?
    Solobill Laville: (a lot of pieces too I guess)
    Adelene Dawner: rezzing a bit slow here, too.
    genesis Zhangsun: I see Solobill and Adelene but no Corvi
    genesis Zhangsun: ah there
    genesis Zhangsun: should we start the recorder?

    I was amazed to find a recording device on the center table and wanted to give it a try...especially if it meant no more posting logs manually!

    Solobill Laville: Is it working now??
    PaB Listener Master: I've been touched by a PaB guardian.
    PaB Listener Master: Recording has started!

    Adelene tells us about her new blog...

    Adelene Dawner: So I finally broke down and I'm starting to keep a journal. http://angelshelper81.livejournal.com/
    genesis Zhangsun: I think we are testing
    genesis Zhangsun: oh nice!
    Solobill Laville: That is wonderful Adelene!
    genesis Zhangsun: Like a blog?
    Adelene Dawner: Yes, Gen.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am very glad of it, Adelene.
    Solobill Laville: Do you find it is beneficial so far?
    Adelene Dawner: Oh and Corvus, just to confirm, that *was* me giving permission for you to post whatever you want of anything I say to your blog.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Thank you.
    Adelene Dawner: Well, I've only written one entry so far, Bill.
    Adelene Dawner: But I expect that it will be.
    genesis Zhangsun: Do you have one too Corvi?
    Solobill Laville nods
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I do, though I am very sporadic.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: http://crowsshinythings.blogspot.com/
    genesis Zhangsun: ty
    genesis Zhangsun: why did you name it crowsshinythings?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Adelene has discovered it, but until now it was only her and Wol.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Myoko?
    Myoko Fhang: Hi guys

    Corvus explains the origin of her unusual name...

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Corvus is the family of crows, magpies and ravens.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya Myoko
    Solobill Laville: Hey, Myoko
    genesis Zhangsun: Ah ok I didn't recognize the origin of your name
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins
    genesis Zhangsun: Do you have a special connection to this group of birds?
    genesis Zhangsun: symbolic?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...I like the way they are...you can read a little about it in the blog actually.
    genesis Zhangsun: ok!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I like that they are curious and intuitive...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and peck at stuff..
    Myoko Fhang: Got to love the ravens
    Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.
    genesis Zhangsun: they are thought of as messenger birds
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    genesis Zhangsun: guardians of the void
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: There is alot of myth around Ravens and crows.
    Adelene Dawner grins. "It's kind of neat having another crow-person around. Birdfolk aren't too common, it seems."
    Corvuscorva Nightfire glances over at Adelene.."indeed"
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Solobill Laville: In the fall where I live
    Solobill Laville: we have huge flocks of starlings
    Solobill Laville: that fly pretty much as one huge organism
    Solobill Laville: it is amazing to see
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.."I love that..I see it occasionally here as well"
    Myoko Fhang: Isn't it called black sun?
    Solobill Laville: oh? I haven't heard that before Myoko, but I can see that :)
    Myoko Fhang: It's really beautifull
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: The way they fly seems like a pattern of thought.
    Solobill Laville: yes, and just as "flighty" ;)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire guffaws.
    Myoko Fhang: wow
    Solobill Laville sighs
    Solobill Laville: sorry
    Myoko Fhang: I am still taken a back with place...

    At that moment I hearding crowing and looked up to see crows circling the pavilion

    genesis Zhangsun: did someone release a crow here?
    genesis Zhangsun: did you see that now there are crows flying around
    genesis Zhangsun: is that just me?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire snorts
    Adelene Dawner giggles guiltily.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I recognise those crows..
    genesis Zhangsun: are they always here?
    Solobill Laville: I think Adelene may be involved :)
    genesis Zhangsun: ah ok
    genesis Zhangsun: i thought it was one of those things where you hear something and then you start to see it everywhere
    Adelene Dawner: I just rezzed it. It's four prims. I can derez it when I leave... but wasn't planning to. ^.^
    genesis Zhangsun: no its nice
    Solobill Laville: hey, Myoko...
    Solobill Laville: Myoko Fhang: I am still taken a back with place...
    Solobill Laville: What were you referring to?
    Wol Euler: hello everyone
    Myoko Fhang: The the crow.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Adelene..I think we ought to keep it.
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Wol
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya Wol?
    Solobill Laville: ah
    Adelene Dawner: :D @ Corvus
    Myoko Fhang: hey wol
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Wol
    Wol Euler hears a lot of voices in an empty room.
    Solobill Laville: Yes, a bit laggy today it would seem
    Myoko Fhang: [just realized how to take off the funny hair...]
    Solobill Laville: you're a but "Ruthy" on my end :)
    Wol Euler: I hear crows...
    Adelene Dawner is setting up a small flock on the roof ^.^
    Wol Euler: ah :-)
    genesis Zhangsun: one of the neat things about SL you can say something and it magically appears
    genesis Zhangsun: with a little help from Adelene
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Wol Euler: ah, there they are.
    Adelene Dawner: What you're probably seeing on the roof are bases, Wol - they rez temp-on-rez fliers at random intervals and go invisible 'till the related flier derezzes.

    I loved the crows but I wanted to get into some heavy topics I had meant to get in on the Time Dimension google group discussion but didn't really know how to jump in...I thought this might be the perfect time to bring it up no pun intended :)

    genesis Zhangsun: So has anyone thought about Pema's email about zeroth time?
    genesis Zhangsun: fourth time? time in general
    Myoko Fhang: Haven't seen it, but been thinking alot about time lately.
    Myoko Fhang: Can you recap real fast?
    Adelene Dawner: I haven't really read it in depth, but I think you guys might be talking abotu the fifth dimension, in which case it's not really 'time', it's something else altogether, just like 'north' isn't 'east' or 'west'
    Solobill Laville: But in curved sapce north can also be south (as in walking around a circle), yes?
    Myoko Fhang: Time se is usually the fourth isn't it?
    Solobill Laville: *space
    Wol Euler: hello andy, welcome back
    andypandy Snoodle: hi, thanks
    Adelene Dawner: Yes, Solo - I meant 'north' and 'east' and 'west' in their everyday mundane uses disregarding the earth's spherical nature... I don't know if there are words for the directions in true 3d space unrelated to living on a globe.
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Andy
    andypandy Snoodle: Hi
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Adelene Dawner: And yes, Myoko, time is the 4th dimension

    I couldn't remember exactly what Pema wrote in his email re: time/space v. time as another dimension and decided to look it up and post it as a reference:

    genesis Zhangsun: Pema's mail: One observation we have talked about is that when we consider time, we think we are dealing with time having a past-present-future structure. It seems that way. We can remember the past. We can anticipate the future. We clearly seem to be in the present. This is comparable to "the sun seems to revolve around the Earth." Now entertain the working hypothesis that the three times are an illusion. Imagine that there is only a fourth time. And within that fourth time the other three would seem to arise. What could that mean? What would that feel like? What observations would that give rise to? Would such predicted observations fit our experience equally well as our observations of past-present-future?
    genesis Zhangsun: Oops that was long
    genesis Zhangsun: this was what Pema wrote in the email
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: still sounds like the 5th dimension to me.
    Myoko Fhang: Interesting.
    Solobill Laville: In that context, time is really quite similar to other "expressions" of Being, as proposed by Pema
    Adelene Dawner: Actually, what Pema wrote doesn't sound very much like the 5th dimension at all. But the 5th dimension is the closest concept I have to what he's saying.
    Wol Euler: it's certainly not the directional flow of time that we live in.
    genesis Zhangsun: could you explain that a bit?
    genesis Zhangsun: some say consciousness is the 5th?
    genesis Zhangsun: that was directed to Adelene
    Solobill Laville thought so ;)
    Adelene Dawner: Actually, if free will exists, we need to be able to *move* in teh 5th dimension (from one timeline to another) which seems to imply that there are at least 6.
    Wol Euler: hmmmm
    genesis Zhangsun: mathematically there is a max of 17-19
    Adelene Dawner: I'd love to see that math sometime, Gen. Even if I can't understand it, I wanna roll around in the numbers. ^.^
    Wol Euler: however if all these timelines exist already (for certain values of "exist" and "already") then there is no free will in those dimensions?
    Adelene Dawner: It does require redefining 'free will' a bit, Gen.
    Adelene Dawner: Er.
    Adelene Dawner: Wol.
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Myoko Fhang: Are we talking about psycs or psycologi here?
    Myoko Fhang: physics...
    Adelene Dawner looks at Myoko. "Yes."
    Wol Euler: we are probably at the point where they meet.

    Wol and Myoko nailed it on the head, a great question and great answer

    Solobill Laville: lol
    Solobill Laville: indeed
    Adelene Dawner: "Free will" makes sense as "the ability to choose which timeline to experience", yes?
    Myoko Fhang: I mean the time my sense of self creates and the time measurred by gravtation is something completly different?
    Wol Euler: mmmm yes, but it reduces "freedom" to a restaurant menu. I can have chicken or beef but not pork
    Adelene Dawner: oh, the second of those, Myoko.
    Myoko Fhang: ok
    genesis Zhangsun: how would those be different Adelene?
    Adelene Dawner: Kinda, Wol. You can't free-will yourself into having your RL body float to the ceiling, after all.
    Solobill Laville: hmmmm
    genesis Zhangsun: is there objective v. subjective time?
    genesis Zhangsun: Is there really an objective world beyond our subjective world?
    Adelene Dawner: 'sense of self time' is very much tied in with the ability to make, store, and recall memories. I actually have a signifigant impairment there, so I'm well aware of that.
    Solobill Laville: THen what of the 2nd type Adelene? It would seem that the time measured by gravity is variable...
    Adelene Dawner: I'd need to know rather more physics than I do now to really get into that, Solo.
    Solobill Laville: Fair answer :)
    Myoko Fhang: A fourth dimesion of in the domain of subjectivity would make sense. It would be like asking what does arise from.
    Adelene Dawner: I have a general idea of what kinds of things might cause that, but I'd rather have some firmer grouns to stand on.
    Adelene Dawner: *ground
    Myoko Fhang: Yeah physical time is endeed variable.
    genesis Zhangsun: time arising from space?
    Solobill Laville: Then does time exist if there is no subject Myoko? :)
    Adelene Dawner: Variable compared to what, though, Myoko?
    Solobill Laville: Oops, a lot of questions at Myoko :)
    Myoko Fhang: Hahaha. Slobo: No Adelene: I mean you can meassure time in space vs earth and see that gravity make time go slower.
    Solobill Laville: yes, that was what I was referring to as well
    Solobill Laville: So in that refard "time" is not a constant thing
    Solobill Laville: *g
    genesis Zhangsun: time arises from the subjective experience of space?
    Myoko Fhang: It's
    Solobill Laville: I had a thought the other day that time is what space does
    Adelene Dawner: Perhaps, Myoko, gravity makes *us* move faster or slower (physics knowledge limitations :P) through time, like it can make us move faster or slower through the up-down dimension.
    Myoko Fhang: Psycological time is the patch work we make to create a continuity.
    genesis Zhangsun: I agree with you Solo
    Myoko Fhang: Adelene: I have no clue what the implications are on the dimesions
    Solobill Laville: (I'm sure that isn't my original thought, of course, Gen) :)
    Myoko Fhang: Solo> Dogen (old zen guy) said exactly that. We are time and time are us.
    Solobill Laville: Me and Degen are like this
    Solobill Laville makes cool hand to chest to head gesture, or something
    Myoko Fhang: I bet you go way back....
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Solobill Laville: I'm all about the Shobogenzo, baby
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
    Solobill Laville: easy wol
    Solobill Laville: Is anyone familiar with the topic of orthogonality?
    Myoko Fhang: Hahaha. Got to love that book.
    You: do tell
    Wol Euler: nope
    Solobill Laville: Rats
    Solobill Laville: I only know the very basics
    Solobill Laville: but it seems that there may something to it in terms of this whole time discussion, perhaps
    genesis Zhangsun: like in math?
    Solobill Laville: yes!
    Solobill Laville: things that share some relationship but not any shared information
    Solobill Laville: like parallel lines
    Solobill Laville: or x, y, and z axes
    genesis Zhangsun: the image is of a perpendicular street above a subway going in a straight line
    genesis Zhangsun: they never meet
    Wol Euler is reading wikipedia on her laptop, orthogonally to this discussion.
    genesis Zhangsun: yes me too
    Solobill Laville: right
    Wol Euler: I must be really dense today, because I have absolutely no idea what that means.
    Solobill Laville: Time seems to be orthogonal to space, in some way
    Solobill Laville: hehe, me too Wol...
    Myoko Fhang: Dont make me find me english dictionary....
    Myoko Fhang: orthogonally?
    Adelene Dawner: One thing I've noticed is that we're using the word to mean two rather different things - the dimension, and our movement through that dimension.
    Adelene Dawner: (the word 'time', I mean)
    genesis Zhangsun: yes Adelene
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    genesis Zhangsun: lets talk about the difference
    genesis Zhangsun: dimension is what I think Pema meant by zeroth time or absolute time
    Solobill Laville: I agree, but not so sure they're seperatable
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya, Dav.
    Adelene Dawner: hi Dav
    Myoko Fhang: hi dave
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Adelene Dawner: Solo, is 'north' seperatable from 'walking along a north-south road'?
    Davmar Hykova: hello all
    Wol Euler: hello davmar
    Solobill Laville: I think that depends on the mind-set of the walker
    Davmar Hykova: Hello Wol
    Solobill Laville: (and I'm not trying to be a smart-allec) :)
    Adelene Dawner: Better question - does 'north' exist if you're not walking in that direction? Say, if you're walking due west?
    genesis Zhangsun: so we are only talking about it as time/space Adelne
    genesis Zhangsun: our experience of time as we walk through space
    genesis Zhangsun: which is the 4thj
    Solobill Laville: Ah..hmmm..
    genesis Zhangsun: but perhaps the 5th would a absolute time dimension?
    Davmar Hykova: oh yes North is reliant on physics and not your azimuth ie direction
    Solobill Laville: I guess it would, Adelene, because West can be defined by "not North"
    Wol Euler: north is where that bus I mus dodge is coming from.
    Solobill Laville: Jump!
    genesis Zhangsun: lol
    Davmar Hykova: its related to the magnetic field of the earth but for north read also south
    Adelene Dawner: Time is a dimension - the word 'direction' may be better - the same as North is. So talking about one has simple paralells to the other.

    Nothing seemed simple about the thoughts in this discussion though running parallel might be accurate ;)

    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Wol Euler: hello gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: (sorry to join so late)
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Gaya
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Adelene Dawner: Actually, 'not North' would be South - part of the same thing, dimension-wise.
    genesis Zhangsun: we are talking time and Pema's email
    Davmar Hykova: space time is what the phyicists prefer to use
    Myoko Fhang: m(--)m
    Wol Euler: there#s a space between Gen and i, gaya.
    Solobill Laville: Hmmm, couldn't "not North" be anything that was not North?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire throws notecards to DAv and Gaya
    genesis Zhangsun: Oh my!
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty
    Myoko Fhang: I am lost.
    Adelene Dawner: In a sense, Solo, I guess.
    Faenik: why not?
    genesis Zhangsun: ok can I bring in a practical perspective?
    Solobill Laville: PLease :)
    Adelene Dawner: How are you lost, Myoko?
    Adelene Dawner: (go ahead, Gen)
    Solobill Laville: (and ty Faenik)
    genesis Zhangsun: Can we all think of a time when we experienced time as something other than past-present-future?
    Solobill Laville: yes
    genesis Zhangsun: lets talk about that
    Adelene Dawner chuckles. "Every day."
    genesis Zhangsun: bring it back to experience
    genesis Zhangsun: what was that like?
    Davmar Hykova: i do appologise to everybody for coming late
    Solobill Laville: np, Dav :)
    Myoko Fhang: Adelene: I just got a litle theoretical...
    Myoko Fhang: I love how Pemas mail has the potential to derail our habit of thinking in time.

    Myoko Fhang: It's like asking, what would be there if there was no past and future....

    Meanwhile Solobill appears to be rapidly typing away....

    Solobill Laville erases

    Solobill Laville: :)
    Solobill Laville: Dunno, Gen
    Adelene Dawner chuckles. "Remember how I said I have a memory impairment? I *live* in the reality you're positing, Myoko."
    genesis Zhangsun: damn
    Myoko Fhang: An personally, for me it's a alot about snapping out of habitual thinking.
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    genesis Zhangsun: but perhaps that is reality
    genesis Zhangsun: because from what we were saying earlier
    genesis Zhangsun: it is our mind that patches the continuity
    genesis Zhangsun: this has nothing to do with "objective" reality
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    genesis Zhangsun: perhaps objective reality is only now
    Myoko Fhang: Adelene> I find that very interesting.
    genesis Zhangsun: I was reacting to what Adelene said
    genesis Zhangsun: we cannot prove the existence of the past or the future can we?>
    Adelene Dawner: (And to clarify that 'memory impairment' - there are at least three different 'flavors' of memory - I have muscle memory and fact memory but not situational memory - I only remember about 3-5 minutes of actual time around 'now' unless I make a special effort to encode something.)
    Adelene Dawner: (I seem normal because I've learned how to have fact memory pick up the slack.)
    Solobill Laville: And what about anticipating the future Adelene?
    Wol Euler nods.
    Adelene Dawner: I generally don't bother unless there's a specific reason.
    Wol Euler chuckles
    Solobill Laville: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: that seems very healthy :)
    Wol Euler: probably very wise.
    Adelene Dawner: Works for me ^.^
    Solobill Laville: Well, friends, I must be off!
    Myoko Fhang: I am coming to terms with giving up past and future, but is pema also kicking present?
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Solobill Laville: Bye, all! :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire snorts
    genesis Zhangsun: Bye Solo!
    Wol Euler: bye solo, take care.
    Myoko Fhang: buy solo
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: awwww bye Bill
    Davmar Hykova: bye solo
    Adelene Dawner: "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away"... 'now' seems pretty solid to me. ^.^
    genesis Zhangsun: I don't hink he is kicking out present just its context in linear time
    Corvuscorva Nightfire imagines Presents jumping out of a nonlinear sheet of "time"
    Adelene Dawner: Also entirely possible, Corvus, but not a useful model.
    Adelene Dawner: (At least, it doesn't seem useful - how would we even know?)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: not meant as a model...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: just a vision of that last statement
    Adelene Dawner: I know, Corvus. And as I said, it'e entirely possible that that's real.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ohhhhh
    genesis Zhangsun: Experientially I have a few experiences as do we all I think where time stopped
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I guess I wasn't taking it seriously at all..
    genesis Zhangsun: in those times I felt that my mind was stilled
    genesis Zhangsun: thoughts stopped
    genesis Zhangsun: or at least the chaos of thoughts
    genesis Zhangsun: I wonder how movement and time are related
    Adelene Dawner grins at Gen. "Neat, innit?"
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    genesis Zhangsun: training the mind to see another dimension, stilling the mind
    genesis Zhangsun: perhaps this is what 9 seconds is about
    genesis Zhangsun: why we are all here
    Myoko Fhang: Thoughts are indeed driving time.
    Myoko Fhang: And what about death in all of this?
    Myoko Fhang: Ok ok....getting a bit far fetched there.
    Adelene Dawner: One of these days, I'm going to make my scripted model of the answer to that question, Myoko. You might not like it tho.
    Myoko Fhang: Hahahaha. Make me upset!
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Wol Euler: let's get the autologging working first though ...
    Adelene Dawner: Mmhmm. And all the paid work I'm behind on.
    Wol Euler grins.
    genesis Zhangsun: Yeah hmmm....speaking of work and time
    genesis Zhangsun: I got to go
    Adelene Dawner: ^^
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Wol Euler: bye gen, take care.
    genesis Zhangsun: can someone send me the log?
    Myoko Fhang: Ever thought about why thoughts are so obsessed with time?
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Wol Euler: don't fall between the dimensions.
    Myoko Fhang: Bye bye
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    genesis Zhangsun: Bye
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye!
    Adelene Dawner: cya gen
    genesis Zhangsun: cya

    I left to get back to writing grants and later Adelene was kind enough to send the rest of the log...

    Gaya Ethaniel: thoughts only make sense if put in the context of time perhaps
    Myoko Fhang: But I mean, they rarely take interest in the present....
    Adelene Dawner: Spweak for yourself, Myoko. ^.^
    Myoko Fhang: That should at least be an option...
    Myoko Fhang: HAhahaha
    Adelene Dawner: *speak
    Gaya Ethaniel: squeak?
    Adelene Dawner chuckles at Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... speak...
    Faenik: indeed?
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Adelene Dawner: My thoughts are very much focused on 'now' - mostly because I can't store this 'now' into memory at all to think about later. I have to get all the meaning I can out of 'now', now, and store it as facts, if I want any memory of it at all.
    Wol Euler: hmmmm
    Adelene Dawner: Not that that's likely to be useful to anybody else... but that realization does explain a few things about myself that I've been wondering about.
    Gaya Ethaniel: how can you think about now now?... can't understand how that can be done Adele
    Myoko Fhang: Interesting, but we seem to be wired a bit differently
    Adelene Dawner: It does take a particular kind of focus, Gaya.
    Gaya Ethaniel: by the time I think about 'now', that 'now' is kinda gone?
    Adelene Dawner: And yes, Myoko - I know I'm wired weird. I'm autistic.
    Adelene Dawner: Well, I do have a three to five minute window, Gaya. It's not completely instantanious.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... wow
    Myoko Fhang: Second Gaya there. I can sense and be present, but then thinking falls away...
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Gaya Ethaniel has problems thinking while 'being present'
    Adelene Dawner: Thinking falls away very easily for me. It's more natural for me to just be here, no thinking at all. I make the effort, though - it's kind of fun. ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at Adelene.
    Adelene Dawner: If you look back in the log to times when I've been having 'bad brain weeks' and 'bad brain months', though, you can see me struggling to keep up, thought-wise.
    Faenik: could be
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Do you lose all the facts from those moments?
    Gaya Ethaniel: to be honest, unless you say that you're having 'bad brain moments', I can't tell Adele if you're listening or having those periods
    Adelene Dawner: gah, I go afk for two minutes and people decide to talk ^.^
    Wol Euler: always the way.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.
    Faenik giggles. that tickles.
    Adelene Dawner: Corvus - hard to tell, since I don't remember the actual conversations to know which facts belong to which one. I don't think so, though. I have some level of control over what skills I lose when my brain starts to go dodgy, and memory's important. That's not to say that my ability to notice the facts doesn't decline, but I have no way of really knowing if that happens.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. That makes perfect sense.
    Faenik: indeed?
    Adelene Dawner: Gaya - it's not too obvious unless I'm *really* having a bad brain day, in which case I start to lose the ability to form sentences. If you know me very well, though, there are other signs that become obvious. Increased typos, for example, or typing the wrong word, or a 'flat tone of voice'.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... ok
    Davmar Hykova: sorry everybody I have to go
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Adelene Dawner: cya Dav
    Davmar Hykova: thank you very much again
    Wol Euler: bye dav, take care.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye Dav!
    Faenik: indeed?
    Davmar Hykova: thank you all
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Adelene Dawner: My realization, earlier, if anyone's interested, is that that's probably why I get overloaded - for you guys, it seems like you can just set your brains to 'record' and go over the data sometime that's less pressured. I can't, so I wind up trying to do too much at once.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Wol Euler: an apt image.
    Wol Euler: put it on the "deal with that later" stack.
    Adelene Dawner: Which *also* explains, perhaps, why your thoughts are so focused on other times. you always have a 'deal with that later' stack to go through.
    Wol Euler: ha!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think that is absolutely the truth of that..
    Wol Euler: yes, indeed.
    Adelene Dawner bows. "Glad to help." ^.^
    Wol Euler laughs
    Gaya Ethaniel: I just let it go... don't try to record...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Gaya Ethaniel: if want to record, I just write it down and forget about it...
    Adelene Dawner: Gaya, can you remember what you ate for lunch?
    Gaya Ethaniel: have to think for a bit one moment
    Gaya Ethaniel: maki rolls
    Adelene Dawner: your brain recorded that.
    Adelene Dawner: Otherwise you wouldn't be able to remember it at all.
    Faenik: why not?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but...that is a fact?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but i guess not one that one would put in the fact pile...
    Adelene Dawner: It may be tagged - correctly - as 'I don't need to worry about this', but it was still recorded. (It's also an example of a fact, not a situation, though Gaya may've used a situation memory to recall the fact.)
    Gaya Ethaniel: situation memory?
    Wol Euler: interesting terminology.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Wol Euler adds another item to her "do that later" pile.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Adelene Dawner: There are real scientific terms for this stuff, Wol - I can look 'em up if you want.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Wol Euler shakes her head. THe descriptiono is as good or better than the latin would be.
    Adelene Dawner: They're not latin, but ok.
    Gaya Ethaniel: well I had to look back if/when I actually ate something for lunch... couldn't remember it... so pictured my fridge... nothing came up then I went through what I did this morning until the afternoon then remembered my food shopping... then bam yes maki rolls
    Adelene Dawner: fact memory is "semantic", I can't find the other right now.
    Adelene Dawner: Yes, that's situational memory, Gaya. Most people are stronger at that than at fact memory.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok got it
    Adelene Dawner: Situational memory is also strongly tied to emotion.
    Gaya Ethaniel: sensory too
    Adelene Dawner: In the sense that emotions help form situation memories, actually.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: OH!
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... ok
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I was sitting here wondering why your descriptions sounded so familiar...
    Adelene Dawner: (And yes, my emotions tend to be very subdued, too.)
    Adelene Dawner: hmm, Corvus?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: at times..due to depression..my emotions have been subdued too...and I have had to focus on other ways of "remembering"
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: "Episodic", that's the other kind. Semantic and Episodic memory make up declarative memory, and then procedural memory is about muscle movement and stuff like that.
    Adelene Dawner: oh interesting... I'm on wikipedia, of course... pavlovian conditioning is considered procedural memory. Not surprising. And I also rely a *lot* on that.
    Faenik: ah :)
    Gaya Ethaniel looks up wikipedia for all these memory terms
    Adelene Dawner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-te...emory#See_also
    Gaya Ethaniel: ty
    Adelene Dawner: the box at the bottom of the screen is the useful bit.
    Adelene Dawner: ...sensory memory? They have a *name* for that?
    Wol Euler: eeeeenteresting.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Wol Euler: I rely on body memory for many things, I realize. I have no idea what my SL password is, I just let my hands type it in.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ... mm how about smell? just visual and auditory only? strange
    Adelene Dawner: It seems like I make extensive conscious use of all the kinds of memory other than episodic. And yes, Wol, that's not at all surprising to me. ^.^
    Faenik: ah :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes like playing instruments Wol
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adelene Dawner: Sensory memory absolutely exists for the other senses, too, Gaya. I seem to have an overactive touch-memory, which is a big part of why I don't like people touching me. On a bad day, I can still feel exactly where they touched me up to an hour later. On a good day, it's 'only' two or three minutes.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adelene Dawner: (The exact type of touch matters, too - that's a simplification.)
    Faenik: could be
    Gaya Ethaniel: does it kind of feel warms/tingly? areas that were touched?
    Gaya Ethaniel: warm/tingly*
    Adelene Dawner: It feels like being touched. Slightly less immediate than actually being touched, but otherwise the same.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Wol Euler: has anyone seen ... what was it called? damn.
    Wol Euler: a film about memory.
    Wol Euler: ha.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire snorts.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Memento
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Wol Euler: yes!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I have...a couple of good ones..
    Wol Euler: well done.
    Gaya Ethaniel: was a good one
    Adelene Dawner: Haven't, but it did look interesting.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: It was.
    Wol Euler: quite fascinating.
    Wol Euler: I played with thte idea of ripping hte DVD and putting it nito the "right" order, to see what the story was like when told that way.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: wow...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that would be fun to watch, too...after seeing the movie.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Faenik: indeed?
    Wol Euler: bye corvi
    Gaya Ethaniel: too late... see you Corvi
    Adelene Dawner: heh
    Faenik: ah :)
    Wol Euler sighs. My dears, I must go. It is after midnight.
    Wol Euler: It was grand to see you again.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Wol. Sleep well
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Wol Euler: good night, take care.
    Adelene Dawner: 'night, Wol
    Gaya Ethaniel: Same here. See you soon again Adele. Good day.
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Wol Euler: adelene, I'll remove my master here, it is just confusing things.
    Adelene Dawner: No, mine should go, it's old.
    Wol Euler: ... or change the permissions, so I can put my scripts into it. yours is prettier.
    Adelene Dawner: I don't think that's possible unless I set it so you can edit all my objects.
    Adelene Dawner: I'll give you a copy of the prim, tho. ^.^
    Wol Euler: yes plese, and make that copy/mod/transfer.
    Wol Euler: I liked the opening-out trick.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: I'm leaving that script in but marking it no-script so you know there's no listener master in it.
    Wol Euler accepted your inventory offer.
    Wol Euler: good, ty.
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Adelene Dawner: go to bed
    Wol Euler: yes, I should.
    Wol Euler: good ight, take care.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: you too

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