2008.09.30 19:00 - Nature or Nurture?

Adelene Dawner: Hi, Pia
Pia Iger: Hi, Adelene,
Adelene Dawner: Valgaav is my RL brother.
Adelene Dawner: Hi Adams :)
Pia Iger: Ooh, welcome, please join us.
Valgaav Gartle: just sit anywhere?
Adelene Dawner: yup
Adams Rubble: Hello Adelene :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Pia :)
Valgaav Gartle: /sit
Valgaav Gartle: huh.
Pia Iger: Hi, Adams:)
Adams Rubble: Hello Valgaav, nice to meet you :)
Valgaav Gartle: Okay, neither Gestures nor right-=clicking myself has sit.
Adelene Dawner: right click the cushion
Valgaav Gartle: That could do. derp.
Adelene Dawner: heh ^.^
Valgaav Gartle: anyroad, pretty much just here for this; Adelene suggested I attend.
Adelene Dawner: Val, just so you're fully aware, we do record these meetings - I assume you're okay with that, if not, we can anonimize your name.
Valgaav Gartle: If I can get in trouble at a meeting of people I've never met before at a place I'm only visiting once and have it affect me elsewhere...
Valgaav Gartle: Well, I deserve the trouble.
Adelene Dawner laughs. "It's a TOS thing. We have to tell you."
Valgaav Gartle: oh. Can't argue with that, really.
Adams Rubble: No secrets here :)
Adams Rubble: Are there different bird sounds here or is it me?
Valgaav Gartle: I assumed the different sorts of birds' songs was a common thing.
Adelene Dawner: If you're only going to come once, though, maybe you should wait 'till Stim or Pema are here.
Adelene Dawner: We have a new flock of crows, Adams. And you're very perceptive. ^.^
Pia Iger: I hear the difference, too.
Valgaav Gartle: I never said once, I said that this was the only thing I was here for.
Adelene Dawner: [19:05] Valgaav Gartle: If I can get in trouble at a meeting of people I've never met before at a place I'm only visiting once and have it affect me elsewhere...
Adelene Dawner: but, no worries ^.^
Valgaav Gartle: Aaah, my own statements. My ancient nemesis.
Pia Iger: (just curious, is Adelene the big sister?)
Adelene Dawner laughs. "indeed"
Adelene Dawner: Yep, 4 years' difference.
Pia Iger: ok.
Valgaav Gartle: and I'm still more mature than her. :P
Adams Rubble: :)
Pia Iger: haha
Adelene Dawner: :PPia Iger ^.^
Adelene Dawner: 'grumpy' and 'mature' aren't the same thing, brat. ^.^
Valgaav Gartle: Which is why I'm more mature, hrm?
Adelene Dawner just chuckles.
Adelene Dawner: Anyway.
Adelene Dawner: Adams was here for the last religion thread - part of it anyway - and I don't remember what we were talking about last time I saw Pia.
Pia Iger: me, neither:)
Pia Iger: any topic is fine with me.
Valgaav Gartle stage-whispers. "There was a time when she thought grumpiness and maturity were the same thing."
Valgaav Gartle: anyway, topics!
Adelene Dawner swats Val.
Adelene Dawner: http://angelshelper81.livejournal.com/ ?
Adams Rubble thinks Adelene has long arms :)
Valgaav Gartle: you'd be surprised where she's swatted me from.
Adams Rubble: :)
Adelene Dawner: Three is having login problems and will be here when SL cooperates with that plan. I just got an email.
stevenaia Michinaga is Offline
stevenaia Michinaga is Online

Pia Iger: Adams, is there anything you want to start?
Adelene Dawner: Val seems to have frozen, he says via IM. Also, *ding*
Adams Rubble: I wont be here that long and probably shoudln;t start a thread. I was just reading Adelene's blog
stevenaia Michinaga is Offline
Adams Rubble: That's an interesting question you end with Adelene :)
Adelene Dawner nods.
Adams Rubble: I guess we find what works for us
Adelene Dawner: "Why do I..." questions often lead to the answer to "Why does everyone else..." which is useful.
Adelene Dawner: That happened earlier, actually...
Adelene Dawner: [14:37] Adelene Dawner: My realization, earlier, if anyone's interested, is that that's probably why I get overloaded - for you guys, it seems like you can just set your brains to 'record' and go over the data sometime that's less pressured. I can't, so I wind up trying to do too much at once. [14:37] Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. [14:37] Wol Euler: an apt image. [14:37] Wol Euler: put it on the "deal with that later" stack. [14:38] Adelene Dawner: Which *also* explains, perhaps, why your thoughts are so focused on other times. You always have a 'deal with that later' stack to go through. [14:38] Wol Euler: ha! [14:38] Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think that is absolutely the truth of that.. [14:38] Wol Euler: yes, indeed. [14:38] Adelene Dawner bows. "Glad to help." ^.^
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: wb Valgaav
Valgaav Gartle: anyway, we were saying?

Adelene Dawner: So...
Adelene Dawner: Why do most people buy into that 'intrinsically evil' idea?
Valgaav Gartle: You want an honest answer?
Adams Rubble: I don;t think MOST people do
Adams Rubble: Yes Val
Valgaav Gartle: Everyone thinks they're evil because what we've called evil is easy.
Valgaav Gartle: This is what I mentioned would be my explanation of sin earlier: Everything, taken to an extreme, is evil.
Adams Rubble: Sin does;t necessarily mean evil
Valgaav Gartle: Almost all the times when you see someone doing 'evil' with 'good', they've taken it to an extreme.
Valgaav Gartle: No, it doesn't, but the two are very closely linked.
Valgaav Gartle: Sins are actions, to me, that can be easily carried to an evil extreme.
Adelene Dawner wanders off to go find a craft to do while she watches the fun. ^.^
Valgaav Gartle: hence the Seven Deadlies. They're things that're very easy to overdo.
stevenaia Michinaga is Online
Valgaav Gartle: Things that're innately enjoyable. And their opposites are the things that are hard to do.
Adams Rubble: Well in Christian terms, we are all sinners but Christ is there to forgive
Adelene Dawner wanders back, decoupage supplies in hand.
Adams Rubble: People can do a great deal of good but slip up, sometimes even with a small thought
Valgaav Gartle: That's because indulging at all is considered a sin. Not indulging is a sin in and of itself, to me.

Adams Rubble: Hello Threedee :)
Threedee Shepherd: hi, computer problems :(
Valgaav Gartle: Just my opinion, of course. You have to do some sins...hey, Aslan. cool. ...anyway, have to do some sins to
Valgaav Gartle: gah.
Valgaav Gartle: to NOT be a sinner.
Pia Iger: Hi, Threedee and Steve,
Adams Rubble: Hello Steve :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Threedee Shepherd: Had to fire up a different computer ugh
Adelene Dawner: ik
Valgaav Gartle: hey, this computer doesn't even meet the minimum specs for SecondLife.
Threedee Shepherd: hi Val
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I couldn;t transport here
Valgaav Gartle: anyway, does that make sense? Why some things are viewed as sins, and why some things are innately virtuous? Putting pressure to minimize extremes?

Valgaav Gartle: ...the crickets just make this silence more awkward. >_>
Adelene Dawner laughs. "It's not you, we're like that here."
Valgaav Gartle: oh good.
stevenaia Michinaga: sin, did I miss the part about what sin is?
Valgaav Gartle: probably. want me to go back over my definition?
Threedee Shepherd: Sorry I am coming in at the middle. Why is anything a "sin"? That appears to depend on some particular religious point of view.
Valgaav Gartle: To me, I view sin as anything taken to a hurtful extreme.
stevenaia Michinaga: one religious sin could be another's virtue
Threedee Shepherd: hurtful to who?
Valgaav Gartle: Heinlein has a good one on this, though I try not to steal from him too much: "Sin is any action that hurts others unnecessarily. Hurting yourself isn't a sin, just stupid"
stevenaia Michinaga: worshiping multiple deities?
Adams Rubble: Goodnight everyone :)
stevenaia Michinaga: night Adams

Adelene Dawner laughs at Valgaav's definition. "I like that one. Fits *nicely* with nondualism."
Threedee Shepherd: What is hurt? An injection can hurt.
Valgaav Gartle: But it's also necessary.
Valgaav Gartle: Or at least more necessary than not, for not hurting people.
stevenaia Michinaga: masturbation is a sin to some.. go figure
Valgaav Gartle: Of course, this too can be taken to an extreme. See the classic 'robots enslave humanity to make sure they don't hurt each other' plot. Was Asimov the first one to do that, by the way?
stevenaia Michinaga: that;s harm, not sin
stevenaia Michinaga: or non harm
Valgaav Gartle: precisely why my definition isn't the Heinlein one, but rather one modified from other sources.
Valgaav Gartle: "Sin is anything taken to an extreme"
Valgaav Gartle: or, same idea different parsing: "Anything taken to an extreme is sinful"
stevenaia Michinaga: bliss? love?
Threedee Shepherd: Val, Buddhism does not talk about sin, instead it talks about "right living"
Valgaav Gartle: Yes, but when'd Buddhism enter into my personal definition, except for something to steal from?
Valgaav Gartle: also, yes. bliss, to the point where you want nothing other than it. Love, to the point where you hurt yourself or others for it.
stevenaia Michinaga: as in "love hurts...yeah yeah"
Valgaav Gartle: If you must song-quote, sure.
Valgaav Gartle: but love isn't innately more or less harmful than other things at the same extreme.
Threedee Shepherd: I am only making the point that it is not necessary to have a concept called "sin" to point to
Valgaav Gartle: anyone mind if I move my seat? And no, but it's a very good one to have to start from.
Threedee Shepherd: ways of living
Adelene Dawner: Nobody will mind, Val. We're very free form here.

Pia Iger: the original question from Adelene was : Why do most people buy into that Christian's 'human nature are intrinsically sinful' idea?
Valgaav Gartle: Cool. Threedee is on the other side of the table. and that's because they see the 'sin' in themselves, even if they don't express it.
Valgaav Gartle: much better. anyway, I do apologize if I come across as heavy handed; I've had a lot of practice defending these ideas from those that don't like them.
stevenaia Michinaga: :) views here are what we learn from
stevenaia Michinaga: no apologies necessary
Valgaav Gartle: I'm not used to that. I need to soften myself. anyway, that's my opinion; everyone sees the lust, and greed and such in themselves and even if they don't express it, they think 'this is sin' and 'this is me'.
Valgaav Gartle: therefore, 'sin' is 'me'.
Adelene Dawner: where does the idea that those are sin come from in the first place, then?
stevenaia Michinaga: recognizing these things is the way to See them and move way from where you don;t want to be, if these "Sins" are something to avoid or not repeat
Valgaav Gartle: I've already voiced my opinions on that.
stevenaia Michinaga: but sin is a strange term in any case
Valgaav Gartle: were you here for that, Steve? I forget.
stevenaia Michinaga: I;ll read it in the wiki
Valgaav Gartle: Another thing about Sin, then, is that it's defined externally. No-one wakes up one morning and thinks 'I am sinful'.
stevenaia Michinaga: so it;s applied by others?
Valgaav Gartle: Or at least given by them.

Adelene Dawner: ding
Valgaav Gartle: what IS that, anyway?
stevenaia Michinaga: sin is a term that never enters my thoughts in terms of my actions or inactions
Threedee Shepherd: Humans can and do behave "badly". Badly can mean hurtful to others, destructive of property, disruptive of society. Some religions try to maintain control and social order by defining some of these behaviors as sinful.
Adelene Dawner: meditation chime, Val. One of our few set practices here is to do a 9-second mini-meditation every 15 minutes during this hour.
Valgaav Gartle: huh. weird idea. anyway, again, nobody thinks they're sinful. No-one, to steal from elsewhere again, ever believes themselves a villain.
Valgaav Gartle: However, certain things being given as sins indicate that, on some level, you will shy away from them.
Threedee Shepherd: Adelene, to go back to your original question. As I understand it, some Christians think we are all originally sinful because that then requires that you seek salvation through Jesus Christ. The original sin caused expulsion from the Garden of Eden, I think.
Pia Iger: Sin is a religious tool. if there is no sin, why need savior?
stevenaia Michinaga: and yes, most western religions allow for a periodic cleansing of sins, spoken or not
stevenaia Michinaga: a religious washing machine of sorts

Adelene Dawner: Yes, I get what's in it for the religion - it's profitable to teach that, whether it's believed to be true or not. My question is, why do so many people go along with the idea?
Valgaav Gartle: "Give me a child until he is fourteen, and he is mine for life"
Threedee Shepherd: People CRAVE security. Religion offers a form of security through god.
Adelene Dawner: hm.
Adelene Dawner: That might be on the right track to explaining why I didn't buy into it.
Adelene Dawner: Although
Adelene Dawner: I did kind-of buy into the trappings of Christianity. Just not the 'sinner' part. So that's not really it.
stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t have a problem with the ones that go along with it, my problem is when those who believe they are without sin, or who label you as a sinner because you do not "believe" is a problem for me
Adelene Dawner: Agreed, Steve, though that's a separate issue. (And we've already had a discussion about the practicalities of that kind of situation, which should be up on the blog soon.)
stevenaia Michinaga: ask any witch in Salem
Valgaav Gartle: Those sorts irk me, though as with all such things I simply find a way to make fun of it...and maybe three people were actually burned in Salem, according to actual records.
Threedee Shepherd: Even one, is two to mant :)
Valgaav Gartle: I hope you realize the contradiction in that statement. we're supposed to MAKE lives now?
stevenaia Michinaga: if you are the three accused, yes

Valgaav Gartle: Hrm. a different, somewhat related topic...taboos. People need them, and the church gives them.
Valgaav Gartle: Wouldn't 'cleansing your sins' be a good, steady thing that everyone has to do, and not doing it is taboo?
Threedee Shepherd: Taboos: Not always. The incest taboo appears to have an origin in practical recognition of the effects of genetics
Valgaav Gartle: Sure, but if it weren't there, it'd be necessary to find something else to fill the gap, in my opinion.
stevenaia Michinaga: Why do you think so?
stevenaia Michinaga: I see no void filled with taboos
Adelene Dawner: agreed, Steve
Valgaav Gartle: You don't notice it. I'll spell out how I see it.
stevenaia Michinaga: and I am asking for clarification, is all
Valgaav Gartle: The taboo is something that makes us more than animals until we learn to be on our own. As children, we are taught all the taboos from our parents, and ape more, which helps us establish permanence of nonphysical things.
Valgaav Gartle: In addition to that, such taboos always guide us through life. They're things that form a baseline for human communication, where one is desperately needed.
Valgaav Gartle: You may run into someone who doesn't speak your language and think it's weird, but that's nothing compared to meeting the guy that doesn't have your taboos.
Valgaav Gartle: If nothing else, it gives an area a shared culture.
stevenaia Michinaga: interesting perspective, not sure I fully comprehend it;s full impact as you you see it, but will consider it until it sinks in
Valgaav Gartle: I make something of a hobby of figuring out 'why' on things. it comes easily for some reason.
stevenaia Michinaga: is there an answer to your question in that for you Adelene?
Adelene Dawner will have to read the log. :P
stevenaia Michinaga: are you coming at this from a Christian background Valgaav?
Valgaav Gartle: I haven't been to church in a long time, and know the flaws in the Christian ideals arguably more than any other, why?
stevenaia Michinaga: just wondering
Valgaav Gartle: If you want to know where I stand philosophically...well, so do I. I come up with answers, and try to see if I can fit them together.
Pia Iger: Can we see human nature as is, not sinful, not virtuous either?
Valgaav Gartle: Oh, yes, and very easily. Just take the view that everything simply 'is', and is what we make of it.
Pia Iger: or how we choose our own behaviors without religion guidance?
Threedee Shepherd: social guidance and innate tendencies
Valgaav Gartle: looping back to a still unresolved nature/nurture debate.
Valgaav Gartle: what's anyone's opinion on that, anyway?
stevenaia Michinaga: is unresolved issue being what?

Valgaav Gartle: how much of what we are is us, and how much comes from outside.
Pia Iger: we are mixture of these two.
stevenaia Michinaga: Not sure it matters how we got here, but what is now
Adelene Dawner is Offline
Threedee Shepherd: 50/50
Valgaav Gartle: are you sure it's 50/50? TO me, it's however much we're allowed to be us, and the rest is society.
Threedee Shepherd: not 1/99 or 99/1
Valgaav Gartle: Oh, sure, not at those extremes. but it's far more nurture, to me, in Modern society than it is nature.

stevenaia Michinaga: have you eaten Adelene, Three?
Threedee Shepherd: no, I suspect her computer crashed while she was typing
stevenaia Michinaga: not a taboo for a lion
Valgaav Gartle: sad when mine can handle it, and hers can't. >_>
Pia Iger: It does happen that some people let the social rules override their own authenticity.
Valgaav Gartle: I can admit to that - I'm mostly how I am, to a large degree, because it was expected that someone who's smart is a nerd. Therefore, I was nudged to nerdy things, and became so.
Adelene Dawner is Online
Valgaav Gartle: welcome back.
stevenaia Michinaga: wb Adelene
Threedee Shepherd: Ade, the LION was accused of eating you ;)
Adelene Dawner: stupid computer.
Adelene Dawner: oh, my... who thought that?
Valgaav Gartle: maybe he got annoyed at all the feathers tickling him.
Threedee Shepherd: I won't tell, but the log will ;D
Adelene Dawner: speaking of log, can someone drop me a notecard?
Pia Iger: ok.
stevenaia Michinaga: appreciate your discreet, Three, thanks
Threedee Shepherd: ^.^
Adelene Dawner accepted your inventory offer.
stevenaia Michinaga: tell me you aren't on a MAC Adelene
Adelene Dawner: nope. *checks log* hmm. Am I even still speaking to you, Steve? ^.-
stevenaia Michinaga: .... smile
Valgaav Gartle: Hate to ask stupid questions, but shouldn't the Recorder be On?
stevenaia Michinaga: the hour is late and I;m runingout out of feet to put in my mouth
stevenaia Michinaga: I must be off
Valgaav Gartle: be well.
Pia Iger: night, Steve
Adelene Dawner: 'night, Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: night

Valgaav Gartle: sleep well. don't dream.
Adelene Dawner tweaks Three's tail and points to his IM box.
Pia Iger: is 'dont dream' better than "sweet dream"?
Valgaav Gartle: Certainly more interesting.
Valgaav Gartle: a sweet dream will be lost, leaving you without that sweetness and more depressed for it. no dreams means you wake up quickly and ready to get going.
Threedee Shepherd: night folks
Adelene Dawner: Note to self, have Pema talk to Val about attachment.
Adelene Dawner: 'night, Three. Cya tomorrow. ^.^
Valgaav Gartle: oh? ANd dream of good hunts.
Pia Iger: hehe
Valgaav Gartle: who's Pema, and should I be scared?
Adelene Dawner: Only if you have a problem with having your ears talked off. ^.^
Valgaav Gartle: but I like my ears!
Valgaav Gartle: you could say I'm somewhat /attached/ to them.
Adelene Dawner: Don't worry, he'll give them back at the end. ^.^

Pia Iger: I was thinking the opposite of Val said "it's far more nurture, to me, in Modern society than it is nature."
Valgaav Gartle: Oh? There's much claim to nature, but there's far more pressure to nurture.
Pia Iger: since modern life gave us more independence, we have less need to rely on religion and community to give us security.
Adelene Dawner: I don't think the two are separable - they combine... it's in our nature to be flexible enough to respond to nurture in the ways that we do, for one.
Valgaav Gartle: the thing is that, for Adelene's statement, it only really works for adult life, or at least once you hit tithe teens.
Valgaav Gartle: and by then, a lot of...did I say Adeline's? I meant Pia's.
Adelene Dawner: I was goona say.
Valgaav Gartle: anyway, by then a lot of the aspects of the culture have already been set into us.
Pia Iger: today's early education do give more respect to individuality. while way back, kids had to conform more.
Adelene Dawner: ...that might not be a can of worms you want to open in front of us, Pia.
Valgaav Gartle: Before they had to, I'd say, but now the force is more subtle.
Valgaav Gartle: Maybe not in front of you.

Valgaav Gartle: she has something of a history there. Arguably I do to, but I've never been one to let it get in the way.
Adelene Dawner shrugs. "Fine, Val, go ahead then."
Valgaav Gartle: I agree that it has been rougher in the past than it is now. However, there's definitely stuff now, as well, and it's not to be discounted.
Valgaav Gartle: There's all sorts of more subtle pressures that couldn't exist before, arguably, though the more obvious - and therefore easier to circumvent - were rougher.
Pia Iger: I guess so.
Pia Iger: the reason I can guess why Adelene did not buy into the sin concept, is probably she is more in tune to herself.
Valgaav Gartle: There are many things I could say to that. none of them would be appreciated.
Adelene Dawner: Go ahead, Val. I won't get ruffled.
Valgaav Gartle: oh har har.
Pia Iger: we may have to separate you two in next session:)
Valgaav Gartle: she lives within biking distance of me. It wouldn't help.
Valgaav Gartle: she'd just ride over and bop me there.
Adelene Dawner rolls her eyes.
Valgaav Gartle: anyroad, Adelene, I have permission to speak freely on the matter?
Adelene Dawner: As I said, yes.
Valgaav Gartle: Okay, so.
Valgaav Gartle: Adelene...well, she's changed a lot from how and who she used to be. The (PG) at the top is suggesting I not say what she used to be. However, as I said, she's changed, and like everyone who does, she finds it improbable that she did everything she did as a child on her own.
Valgaav Gartle: She, therefore, projects blame onto others - specifically our parents, as I can remember things she's claimed happened I'd have been there for, and they didn't - and made things far worse, in the belief that they're to blame.
Valgaav Gartle: She mostly didn't buy into' the concept of 'sin' because our parents are Christian and not doing so pissed them off.
Pia Iger: Adelene, you have 2 min to present your counter point:)
Valgaav Gartle: By the way, thanks, Adelene. You gave me great insight and singlehandedly created the 'other' theory, which I may get into later.
Adelene Dawner: I know he believes that. I assume you know me better than that by now.
Adelene Dawner: And I find the idea that so much of what I do would be related to 'pissing off my parents' rather... arrogant, on their part. (Rather, *her* part, as I'm pretty sure Dad isn't even involved here.)
Valgaav Gartle: They never brought it up. This is my own observation.
Valgaav Gartle: or, as much as it can be, as this started with a nature/nurture debate.
Adelene Dawner shrugs. "Says more about you than it does about anyone else, then, if you thought it up. But as I said earlier, this isn't an argument I want to have again."
Valgaav Gartle stage-whispers to Pia. "Note the again."

Pia Iger: sorry for muddling. I would feel Adelene's not believing in sin would come beyond the reason of pissing anyone off.
Pia Iger: from what I know of her so far here.
Valgaav Gartle: Oh, I don't doubt that it would seem so! She's changed quite a lot, and into someone who could've come up with it on her own.
Pia Iger: change is good at least! Any of you want to take part of the discussion off record? I can remove from the log.
Valgaav Gartle: n'aah. To be honest, the sooner I get off of SL, the sooner I can open up any other programs. This thing munches memory.
Adelene Dawner: I'm okay. Pia.
Pia Iger: ok. hope see you again, Val. and thanks, Adelene.
Valgaav Gartle: Weekly meetings, right?
Pia Iger: have a good night, dream or not?
Adelene Dawner: Every 6 hours, Val. 4 and 10, local time.
Valgaav Gartle: Hold.
Valgaav Gartle: I'm normally not here at 9.
Valgaav Gartle: I usually get home on Tuesdays at 10.
Valgaav Gartle: or rather, leave the place.
Valgaav Gartle: I get home around 10:15, 10:30.
Pia Iger: Val, we have meetings every day,
Adelene Dawner: Come, or don't, as you please. No obligation.
Valgaav Gartle: ah, okay.
Valgaav Gartle: I'll probably be more present at the 10 than the 4.
Adelene Dawner: mum
Pia Iger: so, see you all next time.