2009.04.02 19:00 - The economy and world empires

doug Sosa: hi , quietly.

Sylectra Darwin: Hi Doug

Sylectra Darwin: how are you?

Sylectra Darwin: Neela, hey!

Neela Blaisdale: Hi Syl, Doug

doug Sosa: hi.

Neela Blaisdale: Good to see you both, it's been a while:)

doug Sosa: me too.

Sylectra Darwin: So Neela, what have you been up to?

Neela Blaisdale: well.... just awaiting spring here in the northeast:)

Sylectra Darwin: Oh, me too. I got a spring cold with some complilcations and I am feeling pretty miserable.

Neela Blaisdale sends Syl some chicken soup

doug Sosa: pollens here on the west coast have me dripping.

Neela Blaisdale: where do you live Doug?

doug Sosa: On the coast where the Russian River enters the Pacififc.

doug Sosa: Actually about five miles upriver, so we avoid the daily fog.

Sylectra Darwin: Cool, but sounds allergy-ridden.

doug Sosa: (hi pila)

Neela Blaisdale: Love it in that area, lived in Berkeley for a few years, a long while back.

Sylectra Darwin: Hi Pila!

Pila Mulligan: greetings.

Neela Blaisdale: Hi Pila

Pila Mulligan: hi Threedee

Neela Blaisdale: Hey 3D!

doug Sosa: 3d!

Sylectra Darwin: It's ThreeDee! Hey ThreeDee, good to see you.

Threedee Shepherd: Hi folks

Threedee Shepherd: Been a while, Syl.

Sylectra Darwin: Quite...I guess Thursdays aren't your usual night anymore. :)

Sylectra Darwin: I missed you.

Threedee Shepherd: No, I am GoC Monday

Threedee Shepherd: I often come Friday at this time, also

Sylectra Darwin: OK, great.

Threedee Shepherd: Other days when I am available it's also usually this time.

Sylectra Darwin: Friday's fun because of Adelene's wipe board.

A fellow member of the group created a wall-sized board that we could all doodle on in different colors. 

Threedee Shepherd: Yup. I have one

Sylectra Darwin: It's a good time, except for tonight when I feel so tired and run down by illness.

Threedee Shepherd: Sorry to hear that.

doug Sosa: But you look wonderful.

Sylectra Darwin: grins

Pila Mulligan: Yes, hope wellness returns soon.

Neela Blaisdale: Sounds like you need some rest, Syl.

Sylectra Darwin: Nice thing about avatars...;)

Sylectra Darwin: Thanks for the good wishes. I may bow out after another few minutes if need be.

Threedee Shepherd: ok, get well :)

Sylectra Darwin: I was curious how you all enjoyed the PaB first anniversary, though.

doug Sosa: Actally be well right now.

Sylectra Darwin: I was out cold right after work and missed it all.

Neela Blaisdale: Me too...

doug Sosa: Me too.

Sylectra Darwin: Good advice, Doug.

Threedee Shepherd: I came late, as it was ending. Everyone was tipsy.

Sylectra Darwin: hehe, I heard that part was fun!

doug Sosa: Drinking bytes of bits.

Neela Blaisdale: :)

Sylectra Darwin: I tried to log in from work, but that kind of access is blocked.

Pila Mulligan: Absynthe, sparklers and onigoko.

Sylectra Darwin: tasty little 0000s and 1111s

Sylectra Darwin: onigoko! I love that game.

doug Sosa: See, you are better already!

Threedee Shepherd: Yesterday, I read that a new venture intends to use all the unused floppy disc slots to deliver mini-pizza's online

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila sent me a pic of everyone on that night, with green sparklers and looking festive. 

Sylectra Darwin: Oh that looks like it was a fun session. Thanks for the pic, Pila.

Pila Mulligan: Smart idea 3d.

Pila Mulligan: You're welcome Sylectra, it was fun.

Sylectra Darwin: Wow, great idea.

Neela Blaisdale: Mini pizzas?

Threedee Shepherd: Well, the slots ARE small.

Sylectra Darwin: brb

doug Sosa: Wait till we have the bandwidth to deliver touch, or at least espresso.

Neela Blaisdale: ty Pila

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: I wonder when will true hologarphics be available?

Threedee Shepherd: Touch can be done with gloves, sort of, now.

doug Sosa: Ain't the same thing. and holographics are visual, much limited.

Threedee Shepherd: Well, there was a beta fix of an older SL browser that output stereo.

Pila Mulligan: I just noticed the new decor here.

Neela Blaisdale: yes me too just now, photos on the floor!

Pila Mulligan: No more tatami.

Threedee Shepherd: Here is a product that would make a fortune for "certain" SL users. RL haptic underware connected to SL via one of the ports.

Pila Mulligan: haptic?

doug Sosa: so sl is a digital version of the sixties.

Pila Mulligan: :)

Threedee Shepherd: haptic gloves sense hand movement and transmit to the computer. You can also make haptic output devices that move using micromotors, etc.....

Pila Mulligan: I see

doug Sosa: The girls are gone.

Pila Mulligan: What was the device on Star Trek that synthesized and delivered a meal on request?

Pila Mulligan: Like a transporter, but in the kitchen.

Pila was probably thinking of a replicator, but I had not returned yet. 

Neela Blaisdale: Wish I had one of those.

Pila Mulligan: Yes, there's a nice device.

doug Sosa: As I move through the day, seems to me most people seemed stunned and a bit dopey absorbing economic possibilities. It is very different being ehre in such a beautiful place with such colorful people.

Threedee Shepherd: Yes Doug. It is a frightening time.

Pila Mulligan: Yes, the world at large is a worried place these daze.

Neela Blaisdale: Yes, seems hard to live in constant collective anxiety.

Neela Blaisdale: But trying to stay in the moment is useful, now more than ever.

doug Sosa: And actually it is all very interesting.

Pila Mulligan: I wonder how analogous this situation will prove to be with 1929.

Sylectra Darwin: ok, back

Neela Blaisdale: Interesting in what way Doug?

Pila Mulligan: Welcome back Sylectra.

doug Sosa: 29, the meme is to say it is the worst sine then, but why not worser?

doug Sosa: Intesting in that people seem open to experimentation.

doug Sosa: And the "system" has never been so revealed.

Pila Mulligan: Things have eroded away that may never return.

Pila Mulligan: E.g., investment banks.

Neela Blaisdale: Such as what Pila?

Neela Blaisdale: Ah...

doug Sosa: The shift to a credit economy was not smart, except for those few wwho got really rich.

Pila Mulligan: yep

Pila Mulligan: Can't eat plastic.

Sylectra Darwin: nope

Sylectra Darwin: Most of us are quite disconnected from the supply and demand chain.

Sylectra Darwin: Yes, we constantly play a role, but our contribution to society is usually several steps removed from something more immediate like gathering food.

Pila Mulligan: But most people can grow something somewhere, and it helps to do so, even if only for the oplifted feeling.

Neela Blaisdale: Amazing though how it's still going on.. the credit thing. Also don't see the hyper rich extending themselves, still many executive bonuses

doug Sosa: how can we have a successul economy AND distribute the proceeds widely?

Pila Mulligan: the Great Depression was not a problem for wealthy people of the that time, either, Neela

Pila Mulligan: I think it is easy to design Doug, but dificult to implement

Sylectra Darwin: It seems that all depression and recessions have one thing in common, and that's the reality check that some of us have done something foolish.

Neela Blaisdale: Yes.. but I wonder what will happen as people without get increasingly desperate.. wonder if we'll see conflict.

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: In Europe it is already a factor.

Sylectra Darwin: Could, Neela.

Pila Mulligan: However, in the 30s it was not so conflicted among the people just getting by.

doug Sosa: How desperate are people we know? I known very few that have lost jobs, which shows how insulated I am.

Neela Blaisdale: Yes but I think there was less of an extreme then... and everyone is aware of the huge numbers involved.

Pila Mulligan: Urbanized areas are really not comparable to the 30s either.

Sylectra Darwin: Guys, I am going to have to step out of the conversation and go to sleep because I am feeling very tired, but please stay and continue the interesting conversation.

Pila Mulligan: Doug, it is hitting hard in my neighborhood.

Pila Mulligan: doug*

Neela Blaisdale: Night Syl, feel better.

Pila Mulligan: Hope your health greets you in the morning Sylectra.

Sylectra Darwin: Thanks.

doug Sosa: Be well.

Threedee Shepherd: bye

doug Sosa: Pila, how are people getting by?

Pila Mulligan: Good question.

Pila Mulligan: We have the luck of abundant natural foods.

Pila Mulligan: But we still pay rent.

Pila Mulligan: So people struggle more with the latter than the former.

Neela Blaisdale: Where do you live Pila?

Pila Mulligan: Hawaii.

Neela Blaisdale sighs.

Pila Mulligan: Most of the people i know are tradespeople whose jobs are cut way back, but not eliminated.

Pila Mulligan: So belts are getting tightened.

doug Sosa: Cut back but not eliminated sunds like paradise compared straight firing.

Pila Mulligan: yes, and homelessness

Threedee Shepherd: And firing comes to equal no health insurance.

Pila Mulligan: yep

Pila Mulligan: It's interesting how much effort has been made by some to blame Obama for the economy.

doug Sosa: I need to go prepare dinner... thnks for the talk.

Pila Mulligan: Bye doug, have a nice meal.

Neela Blaisdale: I must leave too, have a good night you two:)

Pila Mulligan: bye Neela, nice to see you

Pila Mulligan: 3d aren't you in Colorado?

Threedee Shepherd: yes

Pila Mulligan: I read recently you guys had a blizzard

Pila Mulligan: somewhere there

Threedee Shepherd: yup, and here on the Front Range, it melted quickly, as do most Spring Storms

Pila Mulligan: I remember those from when I lived in Iowa.

Threedee Shepherd: It our form of April showers.

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: yep, Iowans took the in stride too.

Pila Mulligan: 30 below zero was normal there.

Pila Mulligan: Front Range sound slike a rural area.

Threedee Shepherd: By The Way, Just to prove all good ideas are already taken, the haptics I was discussion for SL sex, are old hat.

Pila Mulligan: There was a corresponiding female part advertised a couple of years ago :)

Threedee Shepherd: The Front Range of the Rockies is where all the URBAN development is, Fort Collins, Denver, Colorado Springs.

Threedee Shepherd: Boulder is nestled right up against it.

Pila Mulligan: ahh

Pila Mulligan: Do you see much evidence of the economic conditions around your place?

Threedee Shepherd: Colorado is doing somewhat better than most, but the unemployment rate is higher than ever for the state. Also, the State budget shortfalls are having serious domino effects as services are cut back.

Pila Mulligan: That part has not started here yet -- emphasis on "yet".

Pila Mulligan: Services cut back, that is.

Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm

Pila Mulligan: The other day when I was trying to draw the idea of luck into your conversation with Pema, I shold have read you definition more carefully (at the time).

Pila Mulligan: I later realized you were pretty close to what was in my mind.

Threedee Shepherd: ahh

Pila Mulligan: I was looking for a quasi-metaphysical abstraction.

Pila Mulligan: A place where you and Pema could at least look at a concept with the same name.

Threedee Shepherd: Given the Pema displays a certain "purity" about the possible outcomes of PaB having no connection to any prior supposition, I doubt he and I have common ground.

Pila Mulligan: Pema is full of enthusiasm :)

Threedee Shepherd: Because I take the existence of a real physical/energy world as a given.

Pila Mulligan: My sense of the possibility is not so hopeless, and I I hope you and he continue with the discussion of patterns that you intitiated.

Threedee Shepherd: I don't know if he wants to. Patterns are abstractions that can get in the way, in his opinion, I think.

Threedee Shepherd: Whereas,

Threedee Shepherd: I think the patterns that underlie the movement of football players on a field are not abstractions, even if other kinds are.

Pila Mulligan: It reminded me of the fractals article, vis a vis quantum physics.

Pila Mulligan: Patterns, fractals, archetypes.

Threedee Shepherd: Yes, that is an interesting direction to explore.

Pila Mulligan: It seems inescapable to me, whatever your starting place, that you arrive at some pattern of existence.

Pila Mulligan: Patterns :) also

Pila Mulligan: Astrologers did.

Threedee Shepherd: Yes, and the interesting thing is to realize how such regularities arose out of the "primal chaos".

Pila Mulligan: yep

Pila Mulligan: how do you suppose they arose?

Threedee Shepherd: Over long time periods, local regions of chaos can be effectively non-random, like 100 heads in a row in one million coin tosses, so

Threedee Shepherd: local atomic "collection" that appeared randomly ended up forming atoms, that "stuck" together and then molecules, etc.

Pila Mulligan: Once begun it just proceeded ?

Threedee Shepherd: yup

Pila Mulligan: I've immersed myself for several decades in Chinese practice and philosophy.

Pila Mulligan: It is such an intirguing idea to try to reconcile its essentials with modern views.

Pila Mulligan: The yin yang duality exists there only as a mental construct, analytical rather than ontological.

Threedee Shepherd: It's essentials MUST somehow relate to the regularities/patterns of daily life that it then codifies, even if inaccurately.

Pila Mulligan: But it is 6000 years old, and has served as the foundation for all the recognized skills of Chines culture.

Pila Mulligan: Yes, that was what I was getting at.

Pila Mulligan: Empirical success in recognizing patterns.

Threedee Shepherd: And inaccurately is not the proper word. Satisfice=good enough works for most things.

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: Like ceramics, accupuncture, etc.

Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm

Pila Mulligan: The initial premise of the analytical pattern was a human family.

Threedee Shepherd: Now, the lack of understanding the microbiological basis of certain disease was a real hindrance to a major leap in human daily living, but even there, jacking up the immune system is of some help.

Pila Mulligan: Yin and yang combined in patterns to represent a family of mother-father, three sons three daughters.

Pila Mulligan: From there they proceeded out of the chaos :)

Pila Mulligan: Most medicine was energy based.

Threedee Shepherd: Yes, although it is hardly clear when even pseudo-monogamy appeared in human evolution.

Pila Mulligan: It was not so much the actual cultural family as the pattern represented in those eight roles, as archetypes.

Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm

Pila Mulligan: hence #1 son, etc

Threedee Shepherd: ahh

Threedee Shepherd: archetypes-->regularity-->predictability

Pila Mulligan: Eventually those eight patterns resolved into the 64 gua of the I Ching.

Pila Mulligan: In those 64 gua the archetypes, regularity, predictability of anyhting of interest was contained, they believed, and emereged in cultural skills

Pila Mulligan: That was 3000 years ago :)

Threedee Shepherd: Ahh, useful and at the same time a bit self-limiting, especially of creativity.

Pila Mulligan: Well, they were not rocket sceintists :)

Pila Mulligan: Until recently.

Threedee Shepherd chuckles.

Pila Mulligan: I cannot really keep up with the mental pace of Buddhism, but I see in it relfections of those old Chines patterns.

Threedee Shepherd: All in all, I look to such traditions and the patterns they evolved as useful ways to understand life as it is lived

Pila Mulligan: And so I sense that I may appreciate what they say and where they are going.

Pila Mulligan: Yes, the common elements among those old patterns persist throughout the planet.

Pila Mulligan: With cultural colorations, but the same essential themes.

Threedee Shepherd: yes

Pila Mulligan: hi Corvi

Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi all

Pila Mulligan: How are you?

Corvuscorva Nightfire: i'm well.

Pila Mulligan: :)

Corvuscorva Nightfire: you?

Pila Mulligan: same thanks

Threedee Shepherd: As I said to Corvi and others Jason's Argo and our Large Hadron Collider are really the same kind of thing

Pila Mulligan: Journeys?

Threedee Shepherd: Search for THE meaning.

Pila Mulligan: But I would add the meaning*s*

Threedee Shepherd: I agree, but the compulsive seekers seem to think there is A meaning, as in the Grand theory of all forces being sought.

Pila Mulligan: or god

Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm

Pila Mulligan: I personally see value in polytheism.

Pila Mulligan: A pic of the party yesterday, Corvi.

Threedee Shepherd: I think the -ism is where we lose touch with whatever might be or is "there".

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Thank you, Pila.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: aww..lost em.

Threedee Shepherd: Looks like he crashed.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes

Threedee Shepherd: wb

Pila Mulligan: thank you

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Wb! and thanks for the pictures.

Pila Mulligan: Haven't had a big system crash like that for a while.

Pila Mulligan: :)

Threedee Shepherd: Now, If I could only do a clean reboot of my brain when I awaken.....

Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmmmm

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: Have you read about the sea voyages that took place from China during the Ming Dynasty, in the 1300-1400s?

Threedee Shepherd: no

Pila Mulligan: The scale of their adventures is almost unimaginable int he context of Europen history of the time.

Pila Mulligan: They had ships many times greater in size than the Europeans and navigated with skills that were also a century or more ahead.

Threedee Shepherd: I did know that.

Pila Mulligan: China to Africa tadring, at least, and possibly circumnavigation.

Pila Mulligan: All before Columbus.

Threedee Shepherd: And why did that not "take hold".

Pila Mulligan: money

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: The Ming's changed their priorities

Pila Mulligan: Court intrigue invovled as well :)

Pila Mulligan: Same old same old :)

Threedee Shepherd: xenophobia???

Pila Mulligan: As i understand it the last Ming emperor to support ocean exploration and trade invested so heavily in it that he lost the support of the local lords

Pila Mulligan: the result was the same as straight up xenophobia, however, and it took Perry to pry them open again.

Threedee Shepherd: So why were europeans more successful explorers?

Pila Mulligan: Or the Chinese equivalent of Adm Perry.

Pila Mulligan: They kept doing it.

Pila Mulligan: Henry the Navigotr's school in Africa that was the seat of European exploration skills in the 15th century was supposedly drawing on materials he got from the Chinese.

Pila Mulligan: So they picked up from the Mings and kept going.

Threedee Shepherd: Perhaps the chinese just did not care?

Pila Mulligan: After the last Ming emperor to fnd the explorations was persuaded to stop, they did stop.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm guessing the Europeans had more incentive for some reason?

Corvuscorva Nightfire: And perhaps the Europeans borrowed a bit from China, too?

Pila Mulligan: Much the same -- trade and wealth.

Threedee Shepherd: Could be cultural in terms of Confucian vs. Judeo-Xtian religion emphases onn group in one case and individual in the other.

Pila Mulligan: Yes, they borrowed skills -- some say Henry the Navigator even provided Coloumbus a map that showed te Caribean

Pila Mulligan: a Chinese map :)

Pila Mulligan: "the Ming Dynasty is also noted for its sea explorations but a failure to consolidate any gains from this effort resulted in no permanent value being derived from it"

Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, thinks..I bet the European cultures were more stressed at the time, somehow? space, war or disease?

Corvuscorva Nightfire: hunger?

Threedee Shepherd: Or energy upon coming out of the Middle Ages.

Pila Mulligan: I think the early adventures were supported by speculative investors.

Pila Mulligan: Seeking wealth.

Threedee Shepherd: War and disease had actually reduced the population significantly.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Speculative investors had gotten their money how?

Pila Mulligan: Merchants and royalty.

Pila Mulligan: Not so much like Alexander in it for the glory, as Ferdinand and Isabel in it for trade.

Threedee Shepherd: My son-in-law teaches HS history. I will ask him about the pre-exploration sources of European wealth.

Pila Mulligan: The Spanish of course made zillions from sea trade eventually.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Thanks, Three..I'm curuious now.

Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He -- about the last great Ming admiral.

Threedee Shepherd: me too. It is something I never considered before.

Threedee Shepherd: nice reference

Pila Mulligan: well, the Medici financial dynsaty began in the 14th century, in Europe, and conitnued to the 18th.

Pila Mulligan: wiki: "Their wealth and influence initially derived from the textile trade"

Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medici

Pila Mulligan: "The Medici Bank was one of the most prosperous and most respected institutions in Europe. There are some estimates that the Medici family were the wealthiest family in Europe for a period of time"

Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmm

Corvuscorva Nightfire: And they were the backers for some of the exploration?

Pila Mulligan: I'm not sure, they were from Florence and lots of trade over sea routes developed there.

Pila Mulligan: Columbus "initial 1492 voyage came at a critical time of growing national imperialism and economic competition between developing nation states seeking wealth from the establishment of trade routes and colonies".

Pila Mulligan: from wiki

Pila Mulligan: Florence was one of those for sure.

Threedee Shepherd: Yup, the colonies was the big change, I suggest.

Pila Mulligan: Isabela funded Columbus, and she probably drew funds form the Medicis.

Pila Mulligan: He sure gets credit for it, Threedee.

Pila Mulligan: "About half of the financing was to come from private Italian investors, whom Columbus had already lined up"

Threedee Shepherd: mmm

Threedee Shepherd: mmm

Pila Mulligan: "Columbus' claim to fame isn't that he got there first," explains historian Martin Dugard, "it's that he stayed."

Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmm

Pila Mulligan: now I suppose the fact that he thought he was in India should not dtract from the effect of his voayge :)

Corvuscorva Nightfire: haha

Threedee Shepherd: ^.^

Pila Mulligan: Amateur historian Gavin Menzies claims in his book 1421: The Year China Discovered the World that several parts of Zheng's fleet explored virtually the entire globe, discovering West Africa, North and South America, Greenland, Iceland, the Falklands, Antarctica, and Australia, passing the Arctic Ocean in the process.

Threedee Shepherd: perfectly reasonable possibilities

Pila Mulligan: Menzies book claims that people in some indigenoous settlements in South America havd Chinese genes

Pila Mulligan: tested and proven, he says

Corvuscorva Nightfire: hard to tell the difference between Chinese genes and the folks that were here, surely?

Threedee Shepherd: If not really proven yet, all the genome studies will do so.

Pila Mulligan: so the fact that Coumbus's voyage persisted in time really counts

Threedee Shepherd: There are usually local patterns of genes in concerted cultures that differ in noticable ways from those of other such groups.

Pila Mulligan: If the accounts can be taken as factual, Zheng He's treasure ships were mammoth ships with nine masts, four decks, and were capable of accommodating more than 500 passengers, as well as a massive amount of cargo. Marco Polo and Ibn Battuta both described multi-masted ships carrying 500 to 1000 passengers in their translated accounts..[29] Niccolò Da Conti, a contemporary of Zheng He, was also an eyewitness of ships in Southeast Asia, claiming to have seen 5 masted junks weighing about 2000 tons[30] Zheng He's fleet included 300 ships, including 62 treasure ships, with some which were said to have been 137 m (450 ft) long and 55 m (180 ft) wide

Threedee Shepherd: wow

Pila Mulligan: thats more than ten times the size of contemporary Euopren ships

Threedee Shepherd: yes

Pila Mulligan: "The Santa María was about 70 feet long"

Pila Mulligan: had a crew of 40

Threedee Shepherd: must have made for a rough ride

Pila Mulligan: :) indeed

Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah

Pila Mulligan: a funny thing to me is how modern China has essentially dimissed most of its past philoophy as superstition

Pila Mulligan: even though its history is so colorful

Pila Mulligan: the philosphy wporked for osmehting :)

Pila Mulligan: superstion or not

Threedee Shepherd: Maybe the dismissal is not as complete as it might seem. Cultural norms run very deep.

Pila Mulligan: yes, I agree, it is only the offical dismissal I refer to

Pila Mulligan: my guess is that Confucianisn still has a firm hold on many

Threedee Shepherd: and is the prevailing worldview of most--even if they do not know it

Pila Mulligan: cultural memory exists in the preconcsious :)

Threedee Shepherd: It is built into embodiment in so many ways that it is both wired in and then started as context at birth

Pila Mulligan: an article in the NYT yesterday said China has now embarked on a plan to capture the electric vehicle market

Pila Mulligan: or at least some of the market share

Pila Mulligan: the Chinese never have been slow in econmiics

Pila Mulligan: historicalkly :)

Pila Mulligan: the Great Leap may have been a backward moment

Threedee Shepherd: yes

Pila Mulligan: and the Cultural REvoluiotn was more like the Inquisition

Pila Mulligan: interesting fact: the Ming Dynasty was precede by the Yuan Dynasty whose founder was a grandson of Genghis Khan

Pila Mulligan: Kublai Khan

Threedee Shepherd: ahhh

Corvuscorva Nightfire: interesting.

Threedee Shepherd: And Genghis WAS successful at building empires by land rather than sea.

Pila Mulligan: :)

Threedee Shepherd: What do they say, a few people in every ten in west asia and central europe carry traces of his genes.

Pila Mulligan: well, I was just looking at a map of his conquests, the area was huge

Threedee Shepherd: Well I guess he was fuckjing around while he was busy conquering.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahah

Pila Mulligan: "the Mongol Empire was the largest contiguous empire in history"

Pila Mulligan: "Zerjal et al. [2003][32] identified a Y-chromosomal lineage present in about 8% of the men in a large region of Asia "

Pila Mulligan: that's just the men :)

Corvuscorva Nightfire: that's all one can track.

Threedee Shepherd: A recent study suggests Genghis Khan's direct patrilineal descendants today constitute ~8% of men in a large area of Asia (~0.5% of the world population). With 16 million living men carrying his Y-chromosome, Genghis Khan had about 800,000 times the reproductive success of the average man of his age.

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: prolific

Threedee Shepherd: Who says, "One man can't make a difference"?

Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs at Three.

Pila Mulligan: He had a consistent miltitary strategy that he used over and over successfully

Pila Mulligan: Funny how no one ever caught on

Pila Mulligan: Robert E Lee also used it

Threedee Shepherd: Yes, kill the men and [sleep with] the women, it would seem

Pila Mulligan: he had horse archers (cavalry) of exceptional skill

Pila Mulligan: but they were almost always outnumbered

Pila Mulligan: so he would find the best open terrain for their skills and position them there, some distance from the enemy

Pila Mulligan: then he would sent a small attack force to attack the enmy and fegin loss and retreat

Pila Mulligan: the enemy would always them pursue them to where the horse archers were waiitng

Threedee Shepherd: Seems like I have seen any number of Japanese movies set in the feudal era, with that tactic

Pila Mulligan: yep, surprising how it works so well, heat of the battle I suppose

Pila Mulligan: Robert E Lee's flnaking cavalry probably kept his army alive two extra years

Threedee Shepherd: Pursuing losers is the natural result of greed, which is eacy to manipulate.

Pila Mulligan: yes -- hubris

Pila Mulligan: also

Threedee Shepherd: Interesting how for many American Indian tribes, annihilating the enemy was much less important than counting "coup" and proving bravery.

Pila Mulligan: yep

Pila Mulligan: Custer perhaps being an exception

Threedee Shepherd: I read about two native tribes in the south pacific who had serious "ritual" warefare at regular intervals, but were unhappy if anyone actually was killed.

Pila Mulligan: yes, I was just thinking about that

Pila Mulligan: goig through the motions, so to speak

Threedee Shepherd: I read about that. The "exception" that was Custer was due to his refusing to break off, not to Indian persistance to kill every white man.

Pila Mulligan: I think it was done in part throughout Polynesia

Pila Mulligan: ahh, Custer's fallacy

Pila Mulligan: Hawaiians had some very nasty battles, but they also had the show and tell kind of perfomrances on the field

Threedee Shepherd: These days I think it is called soccer.

Pila Mulligan: one of the old Hawaiian martial arts would pose a challnege to sceince

Pila Mulligan: :)

Threedee Shepherd: which?

Pila Mulligan: Lua was the namem and one of its skills was breaking bones at a distance, with no contact

Threedee Shepherd: really

Pila Mulligan: true :)

Corvuscorva Nightfire: ook

Pila Mulligan: http://www.olohe.com/

Pila Mulligan: "This brings us to lua's famed bone breaking techniques, used with or without weapons. Lua is said to have encompassed over 300 techniques to break bones and dislocate joints without the use of weapon"

Corvuscorva Nightfire: bleck!

Threedee Shepherd: Ahh, that is slightly different from "without contact"

Pila Mulligan: sorry

Pila Mulligan: yes, the without contact is by word of mouth from a practiiconer

Pila Mulligan: maybe they exaggerated the light touch

Threedee Shepherd: Though I can imagine attacking someone in such a way that when he tried to avoid being hit, the resultant contortions broke bones

Pila Mulligan: but i was told this by a now deceased older Hawaiian named Lua, after the art, and taught it by his fasther

Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmm

Pila Mulligan: could be

Threedee Shepherd: Women were much more subtle, a herb-tea here, a potion there.......

Pila Mulligan: :)

Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..sure one does what one can.

Pila Mulligan: skill is skill

Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.

Threedee Shepherd: Well, I will start starting to go to bed, and say goodnight

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Time for me to sleep, g'night.

Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs

Pila Mulligan: yes, starting the stopping :)

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Thank you for the discussion all

Pila Mulligan: nice to visit wiht you Threedee and Corvi

Corvuscorva Nightfire: it was fun.

Threedee Shepherd: It was fun and thought provoking

Threedee Shepherd: :)

Pila Mulligan: and thought providing :)

Pila Mulligan: aloha