2009.04.04 07:00 - Interacting with others

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

Wol Euler: saturday 4.4. 7am
Wol Euler: hello mick
Mickorod Renard: hiya Wol
Mickorod Renard: how are you?
Wol Euler: mmmm, middling. headache, weather change.
Wol Euler: temperature has gone up 15 degrees in the last two days.
Mickorod Renard: strange,,I have had a few headaches lately
Wol Euler: probably the same thing.
Lia Rikugun: helo mick hello wol
Wol Euler: hello lia
Mickorod Renard: Hi Lia
Wol Euler: thank you for covering for me last week!
Lia Rikugun: oh my pleasure
Lia Rikugun: are pema and geo coming today?
Wol Euler: I thought so ...
Lia Rikugun: ok great
Wol Euler: something was said about htat in e-mail, but I can't remember

we are all here for fun ;) SL as an addiction

Mickorod Renard: do you both come here for fun or is there a work interest?
Wol Euler: ah, no, he said that Geo has agreed in principle but no date.
Lia Rikugun: no work interest
Lia Rikugun: and you mick?
Mickorod Renard: just fun
Wol Euler: mick, this is for me just some strange and perverse kind of fun :)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Mickorod Renard: me too
Mickorod Renard: I often wonder whether I should quit
Lia Rikugun: why?
Wol Euler: /me's eyes widen.
Lia Rikugun: the job or PaB?
Mickorod Renard: well,,I feel I am letting RL slip by
Wol Euler: hmmmm
Wol Euler: it does happen, I'll grant you that.
Wol Euler: people get addicted to SL - or to tv, or beer ...
Lia Rikugun: i think this is very important too
Lia Rikugun: but SL or PaB?
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I have little addiction to those other things,,so I do feel a reasonable balance
Mickorod Renard: and as you say,,what we do here is enrichening for RL
Lia Rikugun: i think this is opening up more than closing
Lia Rikugun: :)
Wol Euler: hello scath
Mickorod Renard: Hi Scath
Lia Rikugun: hello scath
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol, Lia, Mick:)
Wol Euler: [7:05] Lia Rikugun: but SL or PaB?

why is it difficult to find reasonable intellectual chat in RL?

Mickorod Renard: It is sometimes dificult to find reasonable intelectual chat in RL
Lia Rikugun: i was wondering if you meant dependent from sl or pab?
Wol Euler nods vigorously.
Mickorod Renard: well,,I dont do much on SL other than go to P aB and Kira and other Philo meets
Lia Rikugun: ok me neither
Wol Euler: maybe you need other SL interests for a little more balance here?
Wol Euler: (though most of my time goes here too, and most of my friends are now in or around it)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, there is not so much spare time left to explore other things in SL:)
Mickorod Renard: well I have explored in my early days here,,and I have a home and do things like the garden and create stuff too,,on SL
Lia Rikugun: why do you think it is so difficult to havemeaningful conversations in RL?
Lia Rikugun: are people not interested?
Lia Rikugun: do they have other priorities?
Lia Rikugun: no time?
Lia Rikugun: or just afraid maybe?
Lia Rikugun: to talk openly
Mickorod Renard: well,,I had been out of the country for some years,,now I am amongst strangers,,except my Son and partner
Lia Rikugun: all of it somehow:)
Wol Euler: I think it's harder to find and meet like-minded people in RL.
Lia Rikugun: ok i understand
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Wol Euler: SL is a "social condensor"
Wol Euler: it does a tremendous amount of filtering just by existing :)
Lia Rikugun: but maybe people dont really show hwo they are in RL
Mickorod Renard: yes, I can understand that
Lia Rikugun: they take some image depending on the situation
Mickorod Renard: I meet some of my old friends sometimes and have a good chin wag
Lia Rikugun: what is chin wag?
Mickorod Renard: talk
Lia Rikugun: ahh
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Lia Rikugun: :)
Lia Rikugun: my english is not the best sory
Mickorod Renard: I am english,,thats why I am complacent
Lia Rikugun: i think half of the time i am the reason because i dont have meaningful conversations in RL
Mickorod Renard: Lia , your english is fantastic,,it is I who am sorry
Lia Rikugun: because i think I cannot havesuch a conversation with this or that person
Wol Euler chuckles
Wol Euler: yes, that is true for me too, lia
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Lia Rikugun: and several times i was surprised that actually it was possible
Mickorod Renard: I guess it helps when one builds up trust with others
Lia Rikugun: (several times it was not possible as well :))
Mickorod Renard: wheras on SL it doesnt seem so relevant
Lia Rikugun: thats true
Lia Rikugun: you can just leave
Wol Euler: buongiorno qt!
Mickorod Renard: Hiya QT
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello QT
Lia Rikugun: hello qt

will people outside of SL understand us?

Wol Euler: a lot of my emotional life takes place here, now. This is something I find very hard to talk about with people outside of SL
Lia Rikugun: they wont understand thats true
Wol Euler: because if they don't know SL, haven't seen it themselves, you sound like an idiot
Mickorod Renard: yes,,that is true
Qt Core: i tryed to talk about it outside SL and outside this sim, almost all wonder who is the madder one, me or you all ;-)
Wol Euler: :)
Lia Rikugun: :) hehe
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Wol Euler: and yet they think themselves perfectly sane for talking all day about Madonna adopting another child!
Wol Euler: or about TV "reality shows"
Scathach Rhiadra: or the weather:)
Wol Euler: that is truly mad
Qt Core: or new PHP features ;-)
Lia Rikugun: (germanys next topmodel... :P)
Wol Euler: ah, no, PHP is useful! ;)
Wol Euler: yes, lia, exactly.
Mickorod Renard: It is suprising how many people in RL hold onto dark questions and never ask anyone
Lia Rikugun: what do you mean by dark question
Qt Core: why is the water so "weak" ?
Mickorod Renard: SL can release that burdoner
Wol Euler: the fountain? I turned it down
Qt Core: ok, just wondering
Mickorod Renard: well,,dark as in retained as too ambarasing to air in public
Mickorod Renard: simple things..like,,erm does God exist
Wol Euler: that is true, mick. People are afraid to speak as openly in RL as we do here

the social convention that everybody is supposed to be happy - "How are you?" - "bad."

Wol Euler: or "why am I unhappy"
Mickorod Renard: yes
Lia Rikugun: thanks mick
Mickorod Renard: or,,why does the world seem so unfair
Mickorod Renard: grin
Wol Euler: because there is a social convention in RL that we are all happy and successful and having a wonderful time
Wol Euler: and it's really not acceptable to disagree with that
Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
Mickorod Renard: or,,can one fly
Lia Rikugun: we see this in all movies coming out, everynody happy ...
Wol Euler: yep
Qt Core: do they/we fear to be told to work toward the "real" problems and not "silly" things ?
Lia Rikugun: brainwashing
Wol Euler: and in other media too, everyone who isn't a mass murderer is happy and lucky and having a graet time
Wol Euler: apparently...
Scathach Rhiadra: and if someone asks how you are, you are expected to answer 'fine, ty':)
Wol Euler: right
Mickorod Renard: maybe it is a good thing people in rl are not so open
Wol Euler: there is a different social convention in SL, somehow, we are allowed to be more honest here
Mickorod Renard: it would be more depressing
Wol Euler: I disagree mick, I think it would be less so.
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Wol Euler: part of our common depression is believing that we are alone with the darkness.
Mickorod Renard: maybe that is true
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Wol Euler: if we knew that everyone else was unhappy too, it would seem less like our personal fate or failure
Qt Core: sometimes i find that people, even here in sl are somewhat offended if i resp[ond that i'm not good to the how are you question
Mickorod Renard: a problem shared is a problem halved
Qt Core: and i'm not speaking about health
Lia Rikugun: usually it is an uncomfortable sitiuation
Wol Euler nods
Qt Core: that is "accepted"
Lia Rikugun: because dont know how to react
Mickorod Renard: yes,,there is an expected routine to greetings
Mickorod Renard: condition again
Lia Rikugun: i like this mircowave food-is-done sound :D
Wol Euler: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Qt Core: :-)
Mickorod Renard: ;)
Wol Euler: ha, a clear round!
Wol Euler: we all get extra karmapoints for that
Scathach Rhiadra: heh:)
Lia Rikugun: how many do we need?
Mickorod Renard: lots
Qt Core: i'm about to level-up ;-)
Lia Rikugun: I have 12.34 now
Wol Euler: well, I'm a dog in RL so I need fewer points than you lot for my next level change :)
Lia Rikugun: oh wow, but very intelligent dog who can speak
Lia Rikugun: and WRITE!
Lia Rikugun: cool
Wol Euler: writing is easier, that's why I don't do voice.
Wol Euler: just don't have the right kind of larynx, you know?
Lia Rikugun: :)
Qt Core: better that than not having the right kind of brain ;-)
Wol Euler grins
Wol Euler: back to social conditioing, though...

fighting social conditioning!!

Qt Core: i fought that most of my life
Mickorod Renard: I was a rebel
Lia Rikugun: tell us more qt and mick please
Mickorod Renard: after u QT
Scathach Rhiadra: yes please:)
Qt Core: i wasn't a rebel, but i only wanted to do ( and be) things my way
Mickorod Renard: an idealist?
Lia Rikugun: :D
Mickorod Renard: some call me one of them
Qt Core: i was sent to a shrink justr after my first week ar kindergarden as i wasn't aligned with the dad work and mum stay at home vision ;-)
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
Qt Core: i draw my mother working and my father doing the dishes ;-)
Lia Rikugun: HAHA great!!
Lia Rikugun: love that
Wol Euler: and that must of course be wrong!
Mickorod Renard: I did role reversal in RL
Wol Euler: no household could be like that!
Lia Rikugun: and in ITALY
Wol Euler snarls
Qt Core: and in the '70
Mickorod Renard: my Son called me Mum for years
Lia Rikugun: hehehe
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Qt Core: thanks god my patents were friend with the shring so it ended in a laugh ;-)
Qt Core: parents
Wol Euler: :)
Mickorod Renard: I just had a bad overdose of hormones at 15 and they are just about getting down to normal
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Mickorod Renard: 35 years later
Wol Euler: wow
Lia Rikugun: ;)
Mickorod Renard: now I am almost calm
Mickorod Renard: well,,I am talking figuratively
Mickorod Renard: not medically
Qt Core: there is a topic i argue often with "normal people", work career
Wol Euler: oh, I assumed that you meant medical, because I met a woman who'd been mis-treated and had had great problems because of it.
Wol Euler: good, that's a relief.
Mickorod Renard: noo,,I was just crazy as a kid,,and just stayed a bit crazy afterwards
Lia Rikugun: crazy is good
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I like it
Wol Euler: certain kinds of crazy are good.
Qt Core: norlam is just boring ;-)
Qt Core: normal
Mickorod Renard: it keeps me young too
Lia Rikugun: qt what work career discussions?
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Mickorod Renard: hi Syle
Sylectra Darwin: Greetings.
Qt Core: it is most about promotions
Lia Rikugun: hello sylectra
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sylectra
Wol Euler: hello sylectra, nice to meet you.
Sylectra Darwin: Hi Wol! I think we've been in a few Guardian meetings together, a while back.
Wol Euler: ah, that might be. with nostrum ...

QT tells us about his "work career" discussions: promotion means stopping what you do and start managing it. do you want this?

Qt Core: the arguing is about my refusal to search for promotions
Sylectra Darwin: grins
Qt Core: i'm at the point where a promotion would mean stopping doing what i do and starting managing it
Lia Rikugun: ah
Wol Euler: right! why should you want that?
Mickorod Renard: promotion often leads to more pressure
Wol Euler: and to the loss of doing the work that got you interested in the first place
Mickorod Renard: yes
Qt Core: i wonder why all thinks that being able to do means being able to manage it
Wol Euler: happens particularly in teaching. The good teachers are promoted to heads, so they don't teach any more
Mickorod Renard: yes
Qt Core: exactly Wol
Qt Core: my fields is programming but it is the same
Sylectra Darwin: I have seen that in some forward thinking business environments, they promote their best people but not to management - more like Senior Specialist and stuff like that.
Wol Euler nods
Mickorod Renard: there should be more reward for commitment and loyalty rather than ladder climbing
Qt Core: so you rally have to see how many people can't understand that... but you get more money, you get Power...
Qt Core: really*
Wol Euler: problem is that the higher-ups are by definition ladderclimbers :)
Scathach Rhiadra: and recognition that other abilities exist, not just management
Wol Euler: yep
Qt Core: another source of "social pressure" is school, how many times some schoolmate told me but you have to do ... all are doing that
Wol Euler nods

are we programmed like a computer who need to be rebooted from time to time? (programmers talking among each other ;)

Mickorod Renard: I have often wondered whether we are programmed ..like a computer,,with a basic program
Qt Core: so that's the problem : basic... wrong wrong language ;-)
Wol Euler laughs
Lia Rikugun: hehe
Qt Core: sorry
Scathach Rhiadra: :))
Mickorod Renard: and every so often need a virus scan and an clearout
Wol Euler: still, could have been worse: might have been cobol
Qt Core: (starting to cry as i know/knew both)
Mickorod Renard: some time ago my brain nearly came to a halt cos of all the pressure and junk built up
Mickorod Renard: and then it sort of got re booted,,runs much better now
Wol Euler nods
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Qt Core: a couple times i heven had some form of reverse social pressure
Sylectra Darwin: glad to hear it, Mickorod. :)
Mickorod Renard: the trouble now is that I look at people around me and see that they are running really slow and ,,,all full of virus
Wol Euler: heheheh
Mickorod Renard: grin

reverse social pressure. listening to music which is too normal

Mickorod Renard: whats this reverse social stuff QT?
Qt Core: that happens when i tell to "non aligned" people that sometimes i like to hear hous/disco music
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Qt Core: and they say it is so... normal i should not like it
Mickorod Renard: I like all sorts of music,,even my son is shocked
Wol Euler: :)
Mickorod Renard: and I was around when the beatles were top
Scathach Rhiadra: so the 'non-alligned' people can have their own 'normalcy' rules of behaviour
Wol Euler smiles. Does anyone else find their tastes broadening as they get older? Mine certainly are, I was very "definite" when I was younger
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Qt Core: yes
Mickorod Renard: sometimes I come home to find son and mates listening to Jimmy Hendrick now
Lia Rikugun: (sorry i need to go, want to buy a bed and shops close in one hour...)
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: a worthy endeavour, lia!
Lia Rikugun: byebye everyone
Mickorod Renard: bye Lia
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Lia, see you later
Wol Euler: bye lia, take care.happy hsopping
Lia Rikugun: thank you wol
Qt Core: i think that many, most groups (whichever is the things that keeps them togheter) will ever suffer from the US/them problem
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Mickorod Renard: sub cultures?
Qt Core: maybe even not consciously
Mickorod Renard: there is a big brother system in the uk
Mickorod Renard: and all in sub cultures are looked upon suspiciously
Mickorod Renard: at least u have the freedom to belong to a subculture,,still
Sylectra Darwin: Folks, I need to go. It was good seeing you briefly!
Sylectra Darwin: Be well.
Qt Core: sometimes just saying that i'm in chat/virtual worlds and being more than 25... bring up suspicius thought, am i a maniac ?
Wol Euler: bye syl, take care.
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Syelectra

humans need to feel that they are loved versus contemplatives who thrive on being alone

Mickorod Renard: one thing that seems paramount to me is that humans need to feel that they belong,,or are loved,,etc
Mickorod Renard: bye Syle
Wol Euler nods to QT
Qt Core: oh yes, we need friends... and enemies
Wol Euler: yes, mick
Wol Euler: one might say "we are herd animals"
Mickorod Renard: I think as long as you are a nice maniac it is ok
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Qt Core: ;-)
Mickorod Renard: being alone is the worst fate
Mickorod Renard: as in un loved
Qt Core: i think that this need come straight from our more animalistin and instinctual part
Qt Core: just an element of our survival instinct
Scathach Rhiadra: yet there are a lot of contemplatives who thrive on being alone
Mickorod Renard: yes,,its what made humans so successful
Qt Core: and some even whitout having to contemplate anything ;-)
Mickorod Renard: that is so true Scath
Mickorod Renard: come to think of it
Mickorod Renard: but presumably they find a way around it
Qt Core: if you have no problem with the loliness being alone is a lot simpler than having to manage society
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Mickorod Renard: like a loving connection to God or whatever is their cup of tea
Qt Core: or just a good stack of book and a nice bed
Wol Euler: perhaps tht connection is all the society they need?
Mickorod Renard: yes
Scathach Rhiadra: some I have met who have years alone in mountain retreats, and are the most sociable people when dealing with people
Mickorod Renard: I am a creature of my past,,I have never been alone from the point of view never having a person in my life
Wol Euler apologises for her pragmatic and worldly, not so say grubby, mentality. What do tehy eat, and who supplies it to them?
Scathach Rhiadra: seems they can adapt to circumstances very easily
Scathach Rhiadra: sometimes, they have someone from a monastry who brings a few months food a a time, every few months

enforced and voluntary isolation

Mickorod Renard: my issues in the past,,and to some point now,,are that I fear the lonliness
Wol Euler nods. Would you expand on that Mick? (If you wish to)
Mickorod Renard: well,,I spent some time alone,,for periods,,and in isolation,,and it was dificult for me
Mickorod Renard: soz
Mickorod Renard: I was living in a remote place,,land of diferent language etc,,and partner had to stay away for periods
Wol Euler nods.
Mickorod Renard: I felt the isolation bad
Mickorod Renard: of and on for 7 to 8 years had its toll
Mickorod Renard: I was a social animal,,almost in captivity
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, there is a big difference between enforced and voluntary isolation
Wol Euler: oh yes
Mickorod Renard: yes it is
Mickorod Renard: so eventually I chose to do something about it
Wol Euler smiles
Mickorod Renard: but it took a long time because it seemed selfish of me to do so
Mickorod Renard: but the time for me was like a wilderness experience,,and I had time to think and change
Mickorod Renard: and see what I valued
Wol Euler: hello steve
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Steve
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Steve
Qt Core: hi steve
Wol Euler: it sounds in retrospect like a useful and worthwhile experiene, mick, even if an uncomfortable one at the time
Mickorod Renard: yes it was..and I have no regrets
Wol Euler: good :)
Mickorod Renard: but I am still putting my life in shape
Mickorod Renard: I think,when I left the UK I was fed up with humanity
Mickorod Renard: after the period,,I realised that being a social person and interacting with others is possibly what life is about
Wol Euler nods
Mickorod Renard: even for all the problems
Qt Core: this will sound strange but i'll say it nonetheless... i don't like to be social but the times i am forced/force myself to i enjoy it
Mickorod Renard: I think from a p a b point
Mickorod Renard: yes QT
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Qt Core: (and i'm more social online as there is the little red button to stop it all)
Mickorod Renard: I think that instead of running away from it,,as I did,,,seeing what is good or looking at it from diferent perspectives is a better way
Mickorod Renard: not confrontational,,not running,,but just being

goodbyes

Wol Euler: I'm sorry, but I will have to move on. I was up too early this morning, I need a nap before I fall out of my chair.
Wol Euler: bye for now, friends. see you later.
Qt Core: bye Wol
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Wol, see you later:)
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Wol
Mickorod Renard: bye wol
Scathach Rhiadra: I had better go and do some shopping too, see you all later, Namasté
Mickorod Renard: bye Scath
Mickorod Renard: nameste
Qt Core: bye Scath
Mickorod Renard: I have to go too,,lots to sort out here
stevenaia Michinaga: I jsut came in from working on my fence, off to lunch sortly
stevenaia Michinaga: shortly
Mickorod Renard: big fence?
Qt Core: i have a couple things to do too, and it was quite a long session too
stevenaia Michinaga: nice that you ahd an extended meeting
stevenaia Michinaga: no, small fence
Mickorod Renard: yes,,just relaxed
Mickorod Renard: what u doin to it?
stevenaia Michinaga: lots of prep
stevenaia Michinaga: painting it, filling holes at the moment
Mickorod Renard: mm,,still,,nice when its done
stevenaia Michinaga: puddy is mamzingly messy stuff
Mickorod Renard: yea
Mickorod Renard: linceed?
Mickorod Renard: love the smell
stevenaia Michinaga: carpenters puddy, water based
Mickorod Renard: ahh
Mickorod Renard: ok,,see you all
Qt Core: bye Mick
stevenaia Michinaga: bye QT
stevenaia Michinaga: good seeing yu again
Qt Core: same here
Qt Core: Ciao!