2009.04.18 01:00 - Illusionary Reasoning

The Guardian for this meeting was Scathach Rhiadra. The comments are by Scathach Rhiadra.

I arrived at the pavilion and was soon joined by Fael.  Both of us seemed to be feeling the effects of an early Saturday morning, and so sat quietly for a while....

Fael Illyar: Hi Scath :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fael
Scathach Rhiadra: how are you today?
Fael Illyar: I'm well, if a bit sleepy, haven't been up for that long yet :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Fael Illyar: You?
Scathach Rhiadra: i'm fine:)
Scathach Rhiadra: any topic you want to discuss?
Fael Illyar: none that pops into my mind right now...
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Fael Illyar: perhaps I'll figure out something in a moment :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)

Tarmel soon joined us, soon followed by another 'sleepy' European, Wol.  The talk ranged for a while over Scandinavian mythology, places we had visited, timezones.....

Fael Illyar: Hi Tarmel :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: hey its the 'girls':)
Fael Illyar: the girls?
Tarmel Udimo: well scath, me and fael
Fael Illyar: Ah :)
Scathach Rhiadra: ah:)
Tarmel Udimo: well you know 3 AV girls:)
Fael Illyar: just wondering about this "the" before the word "girls" :)
Scathach Rhiadra: and Faenik!
Tarmel Udimo: ahhh just a fun way to say it very showgirlish
Tarmel Udimo: and yes faenik
Tarmel Udimo: Just finished watch a movie called "the curse of te ring'
Tarmel Udimo: very scandinavian myth like
Fael Illyar: I haven't seen that I think.
Scathach Rhiadra: the ring as in Wagner's ring?
Tarmel Udimo: nope:)
Tarmel Udimo: based on old norse myth about Siegfried the Dragon Slayer
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, that sounds good, was it?
Fael Illyar has to admit to not being very familiar with old myths.
Wol Euler rubs the sleep from her eyes and mumbles "hello everyone"
Tarmel Udimo: yes actually I was surprised, found it at the bottom of video shelf
Tarmel Udimo: hey wol:)
Scathach Rhiadra: and there are so many of them, easy to confuse them, they are all very alike:)
Tarmel Udimo: oh 4:00am
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol!
Fael Illyar: Hi Wol :)
Tarmel Udimo: you'll need glasses for sure
Wol Euler: no, 10am for me.
Fael Illyar: 11am for me.
Wol Euler: just got out of bed...
Scathach Rhiadra: 9am for me
Tarmel Udimo: sorry looking at the wrong time clock, that's TO time:)
Wol Euler: an understandable mistake :)
Fael Illyar: TO?
Tarmel Udimo: yes I have several widget clocks on my Mac
Tarmel Udimo: CA
Wol Euler: Toronto Ontario, we both grew up there
Fael Illyar has 4 clocks showing, if she clicks in the clock applet on the upper bar on her ubuntu.
Fael Illyar: Tokyo, Helsinki, Trenton and Los Angeles.
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Fael Illyar: only 2 of these timezones I've been to, personally :)
Tarmel Udimo: germany, TO, NY, San Fran ( SL) UK
Wol Euler: heh, 3 out of 6 for me
Tarmel Udimo: I've been to all the ones on my clocks:P
Wol Euler: sydney, Tokyo, SL, Regina, Toronto, Atlanta
Fael Illyar: Los Angeles == SL
Scathach Rhiadra: ah but when we are inworld here, are we in the SL timezone even though we have not left home?
Tarmel Udimo: oh yes Oska
Fael Illyar: Ah, well... yes, sort of :)
Tarmel Udimo: winnepeg
Wol Euler: mostly yes, I would say :)
Fael Illyar: yet not :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Tarmel Udimo: banaff
Wol Euler: for certain values of "yes"
Tarmel Udimo: vancouver
Tarmel Udimo: drove through alberta
Tarmel Udimo: east coast
Tarmel Udimo: what are they called again?
Fael Illyar: they?
Tarmel Udimo: SL = Sanfranscico no?
Wol Euler: yes
Tarmel Udimo: time wise i mean
Wol Euler: but SF = LA = Seattle
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Wol Euler: Pacific Standard or Pacific Daylight
Tarmel Udimo: they = new brunswick and????
Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_time_zones
Wol Euler: oh hang on, that has no actual names
Tarmel Udimo: I'm talking about Canada
Tarmel Udimo: I've forgotten what the provinces are out there:(
Wol Euler: New Brunswick is in Eastern Time
Tarmel Udimo: yeah I know that I'm not talking about time:P
Scathach Rhiadra: and you are canadian, Tarmel??
Wol Euler: I'm afraid I have no idea what you are talking about, then :)
Tarmel Udimo: yes as well as Jamaican and australian
Tarmel Udimo: well i thought we were all putting up places of where we had been
Tarmel Udimo: a well as talking about time
Wol Euler: oh sorry. Still half asleep, I guess
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, well it is still relatively early in the morning for most of us:)
Tarmel Udimo: I was participating in a game that only had a player of one:)
Tarmel Udimo: yes you're 9:00?
Scathach Rhiadra: yes

Wol noticed a possible discrepency in the synching of the PaB bell and the time shown on the chat log, which brought the talk aroung to illusions and the recent email exchange......

Wol Euler: Hmmm, my chatlog shows the 1:30 bell dinging at 1:29. I wonder if storm has though to put some time-resetting code in the bell?
Wol Euler apologises for geeking out loud ;)
Scathach Rhiadra: mine say 1:30
Tarmel Udimo: Mind says 1:30
Tarmel Udimo: mine
Tarmel Udimo: what about you fael?
Scathach Rhiadra: maybe chatlogs are in different timezones:)
Wol Euler: maybe it's my client anti-lagging then
Tarmel Udimo: hehehehe
Tarmel Udimo: anti-lagging?
Wol Euler: heh Micro-timezones!
Wol Euler: the opposite of lagging, not falling back but jumping ahead
Tarmel Udimo: ohhh yes micro timezones
Fael Illyar: mine says 1:30 too
Tarmel Udimo: and in your case lagging forward into backwards
Wol Euler: so Pema was right, even computerized time is subjective...
Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
Tarmel Udimo: ahhhh
Fael Illyar: Yes, it's usually synced since most systems nowadays sync the time from servers but ...
Fael Illyar: shows you how illusionary time is ;)
Fael Illyar: or perhaps better to say how relative
Scathach Rhiadra: heehee, or we will have to discuss the illusion of illusion:)
Fael Illyar smiles.
Wol Euler: are illusions illusionary?
Tarmel Udimo: hehehehehe
Wol Euler: or are they _real_ illusions?
Fael Illyar: what would be unreal illusion?
Tarmel Udimo: only to other illusions (real)
Scathach Rhiadra: well in one way you could say that by its very nature an illusion must be an illusion, um, I think
Tarmel Udimo: yoou could but isn't that like saying a pea is a pea because it is a pea?
Tarmel Udimo: or is that what you're saying:)
Scathach Rhiadra: sort of, can get very convulated, very quickly
Scathach Rhiadra: convuluted*
Fael Illyar: ah, illusionary reasoning ;)
Wol Euler: :)
Tarmel Udimo: no it was totally appropriate we are after all talking about illussion
Scathach Rhiadra: yes:)
Tarmel Udimo: there was a nice feel state ring about your statement though
Tarmel Udimo: :)
Tarmel Udimo: that's right Faenik came before Squee?
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Fael Illyar: Yes, he's been absent for a long time though :)
Wol Euler: maybe Faenik came before Ade?
Fael Illyar: Before Ade, yes :)
Scathach Rhiadra: was very true what Eos said though, Buddhists say things are _like_ an illusion, not an illusion, many people tke that up incorrectly
Tarmel Udimo: hehehehehe
Tarmel Udimo: ok
Wol Euler nods to Scath. I found that mail exchange very enlightening, I think it's clearing up some wuestions for me
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, for me too
Tarmel Udimo: I find talking about illusion a little misleading
Tarmel Udimo: I mean we live we breathe we feel
Tarmel Udimo: it must be both and illusion and not an illusion
Tarmel Udimo: simultaneously arising
Fael Illyar: is living a thing?
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, that is how I see it, everything is a dependent arising, the only 'illusion' is if we see things as being totally independent, in and of themselves
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Tarmel Udimo: me too
Wol Euler nods
Fael Illyar: Yes, I could say that's how I see it too
Tarmel Udimo: yeah the girls:)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Wol Euler: go team!
Fael Illyar smiles.
Wol Euler: we could be cheerleaders. "What do we want?" "Uncertainty!" "When do we want it?" "Time is an illusion!"
Scathach Rhiadra: haha:)
Tarmel Udimo: hahaha
Fael Illyar giggles at the inane act in her imagination.
Wol Euler: heheheheheh
Wol Euler: ah, we should do that sometime.
Scathach Rhiadra: maybe suggest that they do it at the retreat?

and the forthcoming retreat in the US......

Wol Euler: !
Fael Illyar smiles.
Tarmel Udimo: grins
Tarmel Udimo: I'm taking 4 weeks off
Scathach Rhiadra: oh, for your holiday & retreat?
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Tarmel Udimo: well visiting home isn't really a holiday:)
Fael Illyar is staying in Finland, no money to travel.
Scathach Rhiadra: true:)
Tarmel Udimo: its great, its home, I can raid the fridge which is always full,
Tarmel Udimo: Mum always tries to do my laundery
Tarmel Udimo: I run into old friends and by the end i'm exhuasted:)
Wol Euler: :)
Tarmel Udimo: too much of a good thing:)
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: need a holiday after the holiday
Scathach Rhiadra: and then you need a holiday:)
Wol Euler: snap
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Fael Illyar: Yes, better learn to limit exhausting yourself :)
Tarmel Udimo: oh its okay Fael, its a turn of phase
Tarmel Udimo: yes Faenik its both
Scathach Rhiadra: it is good to have Faenik back:)

The return of Faenik, and the ability to recognise Avs (and Alts) from just the text in a chat log then led to some discussion of 'Av Style'......

Wol Euler: agreed
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Fael Illyar: I suddenly just felt like wearing him again.
Fael Illyar: Squee is running on a modified Faenik script :)
Tarmel Udimo: so is Faenek like Squee? the words are randomly choosen?
Tarmel Udimo: snap
Fael Illyar: seems I hear questions before they're asked :P
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Wol Euler: must be magic!
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe keep it up ice maiden
Fael Illyar smiles.
Fael Illyar: Squee has a bit more vocabulary though :)
Fael Illyar: and talks less
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Tarmel Udimo: awww that's being a bit hard on Faenik:)
Tarmel Udimo: its okay old chap
Tarmel Udimo: (being very colonial)
Tarmel Udimo: it took me ages to figure out what was going on when I first came here
Tarmel Udimo: wow
Tarmel Udimo: its was like who just spoke?
Tarmel Udimo: the anglet, the mouse, or the weird looking creature beside her
Tarmel Udimo: sorry I mean angel, cat or (it was moon, I think)
Wol Euler nods. We learn to associate the names to the avatars, after a while we start to read them without registering it
Wol Euler: and at least I find that I "see" an essence, the same person regardless of av. Ade remains Ade whether she's a quad lion, a furry or a human
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Fael Illyar: You see beyond the surface :)
Tarmel Udimo: do you mean you don't notice who has said something but more notice what is said?
Tarmel Udimo: in the chat log I mean
Scathach Rhiadra: that is how we can recognise Alts too, I think:)
Tarmel Udimo: nods the essense
Wol Euler: mmmm, rather that the act of connecting "Tarmel Udimo: xxx" to the pesron beside me happens automatically and unconsciuosly, even if I don't know them
Wol Euler: yes, scath!
Tarmel Udimo: well you sort of know me:)
Wol Euler: it is odd when you meet somebody and find them familiar :) but that does happen, at least it's happened to me a few times
Tarmel Udimo: yes?
Scathach Rhiadra: oh yes, me too
Fael Illyar: they're not always alts of people you know either ;)
Wol Euler: they rae definitely recognizable though. Something in a kind of "SL body language"
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Wol Euler: the way you can recognize undercover cops by the way they look around them, tey are too "aware" to gbe normal citizens
Tarmel Udimo: and yet the voice of Scath is incredibly soft and lyrical and the AV Scath doesn't exhibit that:)
Fael Illyar: perhaps it's awareness you find familiar?
Wol Euler: yes, possibly.
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Tarmel Udimo: oh and beautiful Scath
Tarmel Udimo: well you are that in your AV:)
Scathach Rhiadra: !?!
Wol Euler: yes :)
Fael Illyar: I haven't seen many AVs in SL that aren't beautiful though :)
Tarmel Udimo: hummm I have
Scathach Rhiadra: true, unless they choose not to be
Tarmel Udimo: the overly pretty ones
Fael Illyar: no, overly pretty doesn't exist :)
Tarmel Udimo: at least we all seem to have character
Scathach Rhiadra: overly made-up, maybe?
Tarmel Udimo: there's a look
Wol Euler: exaggerated-into-absurdity and caricature certainly exists
Fael Illyar: yes, that does exist :)
Wol Euler: the watermelon butts and breasts larger than their owner's heads...
Tarmel Udimo: hahahahaha
Fael Illyar: but I don't want to soil words like pretty by using it to describe them
Scathach Rhiadra: heehee
Wol Euler: the guys whose biceps are larger than their heads
Tarmel Udimo: oh fael;)
Wol Euler: yes, fael.
Fael Illyar smiles.
Fael Illyar: I have to say I don't understand that sort of AV style, really... but it's been a long time since I saw those much .... I guess I don't frequent the "right" places.
Wol Euler: hang out at the Wlcome Areas and Info Hubs, you can see all you want of them...
Fael Illyar: or perhaps I've learned to just ignore them... ah, that's more likely
Scathach Rhiadra: or you _do_ frequent the right places:)
Fael Illyar: haha, yes :)
Wol Euler: heh, yes
Fael Illyar: snap :)
Tarmel Udimo: grins
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Scathach Rhiadra: well, I must go get some brekfast and do some shopping
Wol Euler: me too.
Tarmel Udimo: perhaps i was being too sensitive and picking up on something else?
Wol Euler: it was grand to sit with you again, my dears.
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Wol Euler: mindreading ...
Fael Illyar: It was a nice meeting :)
Scathach Rhiadra: and with you !
Scathach Rhiadra: see you all alter?
Tarmel Udimo: bye
Wol Euler: very likely!
Fael Illyar: See you later :)
Scathach Rhiadra: later*
Wol Euler: bye for now
Scathach Rhiadra: namaste
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Fael Illyar: namaste