2009.04.13 13:00 - Fictions?

The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

{We continued on the topic of “appearance” and other related emphases in learning to appreciate ordinary life more fully.}

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wester, Stim!
Wester Kiranov: hi scat, stim
Stim Morane: Hi Scathach and Wester
Wester Kiranov: hi pema
Pema Pera: Hi Stim, Wester, Schathach, Pila!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema, Pila
Wester Kiranov: hi pila
Pila Mulligan: greetings Wester, SCathach, Pema and Stim
Stim Morane: Hi Pila, Pema
Pila Mulligan: hi Storm
Wester Kiranov: hi storm
Storm Nordwind: Hi
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Storm
Pema Pera: hi Storm!
Stim Morane: Hi Storm!
Pema Pera: Hi Fefonz!
Wester Kiranov: hi fefonz
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
Pila Mulligan: hi Fonzie
Fefonz Quan: hello all.
Pema Pera: Stim, last Sunday, yesterday afternoon, we were talking about the fullness of existence
Pema Pera: following up in some sense to what we discussed a week ago
Pema Pera: as the counterbalance to the notion of seeing the world as unreal, non-existent, as a movie
Stim Morane: Yes, I said the movie analogy only goes so far before it becomes misleading.
Pema Pera: in other words, the weave of concepts and words we drape over reality is the fiction, like in a movie, but if we really appreciate what is there, that is something very different -- I guess I'm saying what you've often said in your teaching
Pema Pera: Hi Qt!
Pila Mulligan: hi Qt
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello QT
Wester Kiranov: hi qt
Stim Morane: seeing everything as a movie is quite like some traditional Buddhist practices based on seeing everything as a mirage, cloud-castle, day-dream, etc. This practices are meant as antidotes to attachment, not as expressions or implementations of a fully accurate view of what is really present.
Stim Morane: *These practices
Stim Morane: I offer that point for what it's worth, but don't claim we should be diverted from your project here in PaB
Pema Pera: I think it is important to offer than counter-balance, Stim
Stim Morane: Perhaps it can be left as a comment.
Pema Pera: There is a real danger of seeing everything in too narrow a way, as "just a story" where we are only observers -- that is not what is meant in the movie analogy, but can be easily interpreted that way
Pema Pera: would anyone like to comment about the pros and cons of "seeing the world as a fiction" ?
Wester Kiranov: hi aurel
Pema Pera: Hi Aurel!
Pila Mulligan: hi aurel
aurel Miles: Hi Everybody!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Aurel
Qt Core: hi aurel
aurel Miles: Hi Pila, Pema, Storm
Pila Mulligan: my usual reaction to describing reality as a fiction is to disagree, as I see reality as being exactly what it seems to be -- but in this context it seems to serve a valuable purpose
Stim Morane: hi Aurel
aurel Miles: Stim
aurel Miles: Fefonz
aurel Miles: Wester!
aurel Miles: and Qt
aurel Miles: and Scathach too
aurel Miles: (sorry to interrupt)
Storm Nordwind: A danger of seeing it as a fiction, especially for story-tellers, is that you may try to create your own fiction in the belief that it harms no one else. That could be catastrophic.
Stim Morane: Yes, Pila. We turn ourselves into fictions by being caught up in representations beyond what's useful. But we are not in fact fictions.
Fefonz Quan: hi aurel
Stim Morane: Yes, Storm, I agree. This trap is commonly sprung.
Qt Core: another danger if reality is fiction.... why should i involve myself in it, it is not worth the pain
Fefonz Quan nods to Qt
Fefonz Quan: or it can just get meaningless
Pila Mulligan: hi arabella
aurel Miles: maybe because fiction is often at least as true as "fact"
Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara, Tarmel
Fefonz Quan: (hi tarmel, arabella)
Qt Core: hi tamel, arabella
Tarmel Udimo: hi all, sorry I'm late
arabella Ella: hiya everyone!
aurel Miles: Hi Arabela
aurel Miles: Hi Tarmel
Pema Pera: Hi Arabella
Qt Core: (i was thinking that even if reality is real some (and myself too sometimes) wonder if getting involved in it have some sense
Stim Morane: Yes, Aurel. “Fiction” is an ambiguous term here. It can refer to some of humanity’s best attempts to express and experience many essential aspects of existence, and is much more revealing than many matters of ordinary fact.
aurel Miles: i agree
aurel Miles: and in a sense, much of what we do in life is determined by fictions we have constructed about ourselves
aurel Miles: at least, i have observed that to be the case
aurel Miles: and i find it is even more often the case that people who know us only slightly refer to the fictions we create, or those that others create in order to relate to us
Fefonz Quan: but we are not talking psychological fictions here, we are talking 'table' fiction here
aurel Miles: i mean both
arabella Ella: ? 'table' fiction?
Trevor Berensohn wais to rezz
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fefonz Quan: as an example of 'simple fact' taht we (might) claim here to be fiction, not our concepts of 'how others see us' etc. which is less basic
Wester Kiranov: (who is the GoC anyway?)
Pema Pera: (Stim, you may want to claim the session log)
arabella Ella: would be interesting to listen to an example Fef ... if u cud
arabella Ella: of a simple fact that we might claim to be fiction
Stim Morane: OK, I'll do that, Pema
arabella Ella intruiged
Fefonz Quan: there is a table there" end of fact
Fefonz Quan: "*
arabella Ella: would 'I exist' be a similar example you think?
Fefonz Quan: much more complicated to y opinion, but i guess stim/pema should answer :)
Pema Pera: I'll leave the table to Stim :-)
Stim Morane: tables and beings exist.
Stim Morane: The issue is what is existence, as I've said before.
arabella Ella nods
Fefonz Quan: listens carefully to stim
aurel Miles: (hi Mickelrod)
Mickorod Renard: hi Aurel,,Hi all
Trevor Berensohn: Whooops
Fefonz Quan: is stim demonstrating the difference between existance and non-existance?
Pila Mulligan: Stim still exists, do not be disturbed :)
Pema Pera: :)
Trevor Berensohn: If anything does...
Pila Mulligan: see
Pila Mulligan: welcome back Stim
Stim Morane: thanks
Wester Kiranov: wb
Stim Morane: the usual log problem
Tarmel Udimo: WB stim
Stim Morane: *lag
Stim Morane: please continue with whatever you were saying ...
Qt Core: and we were tyhinking it was an elaborate existence play...
Pila Mulligan: you were saying :)
Pila Mulligan: we were waiting
Fefonz Quan: infact we all waited to what you had to say :)
Stim Morane: Sorry
Qt Core: jk
Pila Mulligan: [13:25] Stim Morane: The issue is what is existence, as I've said before.
Qt Core: (not so much)
Stim Morane: my comment was simple in essence.
Stim Morane: We can accept existence but still investigate its nature.
Stim Morane: This is a paradigmatic contemplative emphasis, and preserves the "reality" of beings and tables without taking them uncritically.
arabella Ella: but ... if i may ... although beings and tables exist ... should we take that existence to be a 'fiction' ... i wonder
Stim Morane: no, I wouldn't. But this depends on how you use the word.
Stim Morane: What's your view?
arabella Ella: i can see both sides
aurel Miles: i've been told that we should take the seperation of tables and beings as a fiction and there are times when that seems mostr sensible
Stim Morane: :)
arabella Ella: we can take the existence as tables and beings as 'reality' ... in quotes ... or as a fiction as we can never know it all
aurel Miles: can't it be both?
Stim Morane: sure
Stim Morane: but both are still within the reality at issue in forums like this one.
Pila Mulligan: when I look at a Buddha carving I see a Buddha carving ... a Buddhist may also see the intellectual accomplishments that exist as emanations from the image represented by the carving ... I see value in the fiction approach in the context of the intellect
arabella Ella nods
aurel Miles: speaking of here
aurel Miles: of this representation
aurel Miles: when i look into "here"
aurel Miles: i see my "body"
Fefonz Quan: We talk here alot of 'zeroth' time stim, where the claim that this table was here yesterday, is here now, and will be here tomorrow is apparaently false when the flow of time is in question. so this is very different (radically) from everyday life, it is very hard to say it is a subtle different point of view
aurel Miles: and the things i am wearing and the communication with yuo
Stim Morane: timeless time does not belie the utility and aptness of sequential time. It's simply another dimension of all.
aurel Miles: yes - i think i get what Fefonz is saying
Stim Morane: But i agree it's not a minor shift in emphasis.
aurel Miles: and "here" seems pretty stable but it doesn't exist when we leave it
aurel Miles: and i find that an interesting analogy for how we engage with the concrete things in our rl
Fefonz Quan: i find it difficult to understand what a 'simply another dimensin' means
Fefonz Quan: if something, it is not simple
arabella Ella: another perspective ... another level of being?
Stim Morane: This is hard to answer without direct seeing ... it's not expressible in ordinary ways.
Stim Morane: "timeless" here does not mean exclusive of time, it just alludes to another and higher form of time.
Stim Morane: ONe that encompasses ordinary sequential time too.
Stim Morane: ANyway, perhaps this leads away from the main focus ...
aurel Miles: this is where i come when i want to do yoga with my brain....
Stim Morane: :)
Fefonz Quan: and many times leaves with aching mascles :)
aurel Miles: true
arabella Ella: but ... i always thought ... timeless is 'beyond our ordinary concept of time'
Stim Morane: yes, it could mean many things.
arabella Ella: 'above' as in 'meta' timelessless
Stim Morane: But in the contemplative world, it's a pointer at something more intensely and authentically alive than just "devoid of passing time" would be.
Stim Morane: Yes, interesting point, arabella.
Pema Pera: yes, that would be a similar problem as taking the movie analogie in too narrow and dry a way
Fefonz Quan: maybe i shouldn't divert the discussion to time, but the point was that it shows that we do talk here about very different types of existance, and that's the major isuue of the deabte i thought
Fefonz Quan: discussion* :)
Stim Morane: in higher time, there is no "existance", but rather openness.
aurel Miles: i dunno - the movie analogy seems pretty apt for sl to me
Stim Morane: But this too may qualify, fefonz
Pema Pera: (for RL I meant, Aurel)
Pema Pera: (and time for both SL and RL)
aurel Miles: well - i see rl as a novel
aurel Miles: films are more like cathdrals in the building, they require cooperative fictions
sophia Placebo: no existance but openess
Tarmel Udimo: Openess to what is, openess as an activity?
Fefonz Quan: even the point of 'no self' points to very differenet existance than the ordinary
Tarmel Udimo: Stim?
Stim Morane: Yes, Tarmel ... and Fefonz.
Tarmel Udimo: A boundless openess perhaps?
Stim Morane: it is boundless, in a way that also welcomes boundaries.
Tarmel Udimo: hummm not sure what you mean?
Fefonz Quan nods
Tarmel Udimo: I think I do but would be good to make sure:)
Stim Morane: :)
Stim Morane: true openness is not picky
Tarmel Udimo: ahhh
Stim Morane: selves are "not self"
Stim Morane: time is "not time"
Stim Morane: etc
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Stim Morane: this is where we started this chat
aurel Miles: ah but does true openness eat its broccoli...?
aurel Miles: (sorry)
Stim Morane: we don't need to see things as appearances in order to lighten things up
Stim Morane: the things themselves are light, open
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Wester Kiranov: yes
Fefonz Quan: so why do we practice APA?
Stim Morane: ...
Pema Pera: to point out how things are already open, Fef :-)
Stim Morane: there are many ways to practice.
Stim Morane: Yes, Pema.
Wester Kiranov: why don't we always APA?
Pema Pera: and if we finally practice that tooooo well, we have to counterbalance again
Stim Morane: Yes
Pema Pera: but that may take a while, I'm afraid, hehehe
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
Pema Pera: we have a ways to go still with APA
Fefonz Quan: well, it might not be to hard to get people out of balance...
Stim Morane: I started out by saying I didn't want to divert practice here away from the current approaches being used.
Fefonz Quan: too*
Pema Pera: appearances are not in contrast to what exists, but a refinement of what existence really means
Stim Morane: Yes
Tarmel Udimo: and one also always hopes for a clearer seeing
arabella Ella: i think we are all here for that reason ....
arabella Ella: to learn
Tarmel Udimo: nods
arabella Ella: to see
arabella Ella: beyond the habitual
Pema Pera: but for any instruction or suggestion it is really important to question it, inspect it, look around it -- but also to *do* it, not only to be skeptic about it
Fefonz Quan as pema: to unlearn :)
Pema Pera: :)
aurel Miles: to get the stretch
arabella Ella nods
Pila Mulligan: I'm just not that mental, but I appreciate and respect how many people are quite accomplished with the intellectual side and it is fun to follow the debate/discussion
Fefonz Quan: i would like to say aboout this Doing, that my main concern with this finction/non fiction, is because when i practice appearances, sometimes it leads me to feel very distance frmo things and people, like they are part of a movie
Fefonz Quan: (including my body at times).
Stim Morane: Yes, that was part of my concern too.
Fefonz Quan: and it shows that the feeling of 'everything is un real' can be experienced in our practices
Fefonz Quan: and i guess there is something wrong with it.
Stim Morane: Better to go the other way.
aurel Miles: is it?
aurel Miles: what about balance?
Fefonz Quan: which is Stim?
arabella Ella: the other way?
Stim Morane: being more fully engaged
Wester Kiranov: :)
Stim Morane: but this involves seeing too, not just immersion in a limited take on things.
aurel Miles: to be deeply involved can produce deep deceptions
arabella Ella: more fully engaged ... with being?
Trevor Berensohn suddenly appreciates his lamas
Stim Morane: Yes, aurel, it depends on what is meant. I agree with you that could be a possible misunderstanding.
Stim Morane: more fully engaged with the full range of what is present and particularly with what is most important, most spiritually relevant.
Wester Kiranov: I'm going have to engage in RL again now. Thank you all very much for a lovely discussion.
aurel Miles: right - but everything is spriritually relevant
Stim Morane: Yes, I will as well in a minute ..
arabella Ella: bye Wester
Wester Kiranov: bye
aurel Miles: bye Wester!
Fefonz Quan: bye westere
Tarmel Udimo: bye wester
Stim Morane: Bye Wester
Mickorod Renard: bye Webster
Pema Pera: bye Wester
Fefonz Quan: Kiranov!
Storm Nordwind sneaks out quietly without tripping over anyone
Pila Mulligan: bye Wester
Myna Maven: Bye Wester and Storm
sophia Placebo: bye wester
Stim Morane: Bye Storm
Pila Mulligan: bye Storm
arabella Ella: bye Storm
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Wester
aurel Miles: when one is writing, one observes
aurel Miles: always observing
aurel Miles: even in the thick of it
aurel Miles: i have a ring that another poet gave me
aurel Miles: it is a salamander
aurel Miles: inside the fire
aurel Miles: but not consumed by it
aurel Miles: when you observe with some level of clarity
aurel Miles: i mean
aurel Miles: simply accepting what is there
aurel Miles: being shown
aurel Miles: then it is very difficult to feel anything but compassion
aurel Miles: and at the same time, one is not consumed
aurel Miles: you know?
aurel Miles: be in the world but not of it - that's how the christians put it
Stim Morane: Yes
Stim Morane: ah, my time to fade away. Thanks and bye, everyone!
Myna Maven: S'long.
Pila Mulligan: bye Stim -- thank you :)
Tarmel Udimo: thanks stim
arabella Ella: bye Stim
Pema Pera: I must go too
aurel Miles: and yet, we are in communion with everything we touch
arabella Ella: thanks!
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Stim, ty
Mickorod Renard: bye stim
Pema Pera: Thank you Stim, and everyone!
Fefonz Quan: BYe Stim :)
sophia Placebo: bye stim
Tarmel Udimo: bye pema
aurel Miles: Bye!
Myna Maven: Bye Pema.
Trevor Berensohn: Thank you so much Stim
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema
aurel Miles: thank you Stim
Pila Mulligan: bye Pema - and thanks also
aurel Miles: by Pema
Mickorod Renard: bye pema
Trevor Berensohn: oh bye Pema
Pema Pera: till soon!
Trevor Berensohn waves
sophia Placebo: bye pema
Mickorod Renard: yea,,thanks
Qt Core: i think i'll have to read the log in the wiki... rl called and i lost most of this
Scathach Rhiadra: good night all, Namaste
Myna Maven: Bye Scath.
Mickorod Renard: nameste
Pila Mulligan: bye
Fefonz Quan: bye Scath
arabella Ella: bye Scath
aurel Miles: i too - must run, thank you everyone
Myna Maven: Bye Aurel.
Mickorod Renard: bye aurel
Pila Mulligan: bye
aurel Miles waves and smiles!
Tarmel Udimo: must go all see you next time
arabella Ella: bye aurel
Myna Maven: Bye Tarmel.
arabella Ella: bye Tarmel
Trevor Berensohn: Oh I just noticed someone behind me
Mickorod Renard: whats on now?
sophia Placebo: hello trevor
Mickorod Renard: anything at Kira?
Trevor Berensohn: Hehe hi sophia
Trevor Berensohn: Oh I have no idea.. haven't been there yet
arabella Ella: must go now
arabella Ella: bye all
Myna Maven: Bye Ara.
sophia Placebo: bye arabella
Fefonz Quan: bye ara :)
Trevor Berensohn: Bye Arabella
Pila Mulligan: well, looks like rl gets a few moments now :) bye bye -- see you next time
Trevor Berensohn: Good to see everyone.. this was thougth provoking
sophia Placebo: bye pila
Myna Maven: Bye PIla.
Myna Maven: Bye all.
sophia Placebo: bye trevor
Trevor Berensohn: later kids =)
sophia Placebo: kids
sophia Placebo: bye myna
sophia Placebo: i should go too i guess
Fefonz Quan: yep, me too :)
Fefonz Quan: have a good evening SOphia
Fefonz Quan: (if it is)
sophia Placebo: bye fef
Fefonz Quan: _/!\_