2009.04.10 07:00 - A man in a house

The Guardian for this meeting was quen Oh. The comments are by quen Oh.

We start with a crowd of 4: Eliza, Pema, Adams and me. 

Eliza Madrigal: Morning :)))
quen Oh: hi Pema! hi Eliza!
quen Oh: here it is 4pm in the afternoon
quen Oh: but goodmorning to you both
Eliza Madrigal: Hello quen :) Hi Pema :)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Adams :)
Pema Pera: Hi Quen and Eliza and Adams!
quen Oh: hey Adams!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Eliza, Pema and Quen :)
quen Oh: hope you have a beautiful morning in US too, here the weather is splendid!
Adams Rubble: Yes, the trees are starting to bloom :)
quen Oh: nice
Pema Pera: here in Berkeley we have Dutch weather . . . a drizzle under grey skies :)
Eliza Madrigal: Pleasant here today...warm
Eliza Madrigal enjoys drizzle and grey skies and rain...lots of rain. haha
quen Oh: ;-) poor you!~and that while the Dutch here have very warm and sunny weather
Eliza Madrigal: Hi ren
Pema Pera: actually, yes, I enjoy the rain too
quen Oh: hello ren
Pema Pera: though in Holland it can stretch a bit too long sometimes :)
quen Oh: sun makes me happier and more optimist
Pema Pera: Hi Ren!
Adams Rubble: Hello Ren
quen Oh: and the world seems larger, as you have outside as an attractive possibility
Adams Rubble: :)
quen Oh: have lunched in the sun on my balcony, very nice
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, very :) I've only run out to the mailbox so far today... my neighbor laughing at my sneaking in my pjs
Pema Pera: ah, that is a nice step-up to our conversations, Quen, the world seeming larger . . . .
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Soon we are joined by Sophia, who is unnecessary sorry to be late. Watch a nice misunderstanding develope...

Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
Eliza Madrigal: Sophia, Hello :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Sophia :)
Pema Pera: Ren, feel free to join us!
quen Oh: hello Sophia!
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI sorry to be late
Eliza Madrigal: Pema, the faith topic has come up in a few of the other sessions and converations I've attended...
quen Oh: you are not Sophia
quen Oh: and did you find new perspectives Eliza?
Pema Pera: yes, Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: have been relieved that my sort of PTSD reaction to certain words is not just my experience
Eliza Madrigal: :D
quen Oh: PTSD?
quen Oh: post traumatic stress syndrome?
Eliza Madrigal: post traumatic stress disorder...yes...when something triggers all sorts of reactions
Eliza Madrigal: and you have to sort of see why in order to Hear clearly
quen Oh: disorder, ok, was bit confused with that D
Eliza Madrigal: and let that go
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: It has been nice to take a gentle meaning to that word..hear it friendlier
Eliza Madrigal: "faith" as in open-ness....
Eliza Madrigal: which is what it seems to come back to
quen Oh: how come post traumatic?
Pema Pera: Quen, as far as Sophia is concerned, there have been two Sophias who joined us recently, perhaps that is what confused you :-)
Pema Pera: [7:07] quen Oh: you are not Sophia
SophiaSharon Larnia: you can call me Sharon in you like
SophiaSharon Larnia: if*
quen Oh: ah, I meant she is not late ;-)
Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: sorry
quen Oh: we hadn't actually started only small talk about weather
Pema Pera: "you are not, Sophia" :-)
Adams Rubble: :)
quen Oh: hahaha
Pema Pera: Oh, I like the name Sophia, wisdom!
Eliza Madrigal: quen, like many people, I've had associations iwth words like "faith" that conjur feelings of control/religion, etc :)
quen Oh: you missed my intonation and my facial expression ;-)
Adams Rubble: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera: must have been your Dutch accent
Pema Pera: and my Dutch ear
SophiaSharon Larnia: one of the problems with texting
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: sorry to divert the conversation
quen Oh: possibly, or our tendency to take things litterally
Eliza Madrigal: Not at all
Pema Pera: Yes, Eliza, when we start opening up and freely exploring
Pema Pera: various things can happen
Pema Pera: sometimes everything seems to come out at once,
quen Oh: I am sorry you associate faith with control feelings Eliza
Pema Pera: all kind of associations
Pema Pera: sometimes we seem completely blocked
Eliza Madrigal: quen, am allowing myself not to :)
Eliza Madrigal: Which is ncie
Eliza Madrigal: *nice
Eliza Madrigal: Mutual exploration means widening to embrace many perspectives, right? Including words....nice to welcome some back
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: yes
quen Oh: never had that I am afraid, after getting thrown out of classes a few times when I asked some complicated questions I kind of gave up to try and fit in since the age of nine, never took it very serious and totally quitted when I got friendly asked not disturb obligated religious youth meetings by asking more questions and please not to come back
Adams Rubble: on my Quen
Eliza Madrigal: : ) My kind of gal
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: But you didn't stop asking the questions
quen Oh: well Eliza, am sure you can see beyond past things now too? so perhaps the negative feelings will wear off
Eliza Madrigal: Which is the thing : )
Adams Rubble: I had a more tolerant spiritual advisor who just told me I had too many questions :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: i understand that, Eliza, I do too, in relation to what it has created in groups of people here.... however I 'feel' faith can also be transdecent
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
Adams Rubble: hello Wol :)
quen Oh: of course, why stop asking very relevant questions, even though they will bring you no answers. at least it relativises other peoples certainties *grins

And Wol joins us! We continue about negative feelings and associations around the concept of faith.

Wol Euler: good morning everyone
quen Oh: hi Wol!!
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Wol
Pema Pera: Hi Wol!
Eliza Madrigal: quen :) "relativeizes people's certaintaies" Hm
Eliza Madrigal: *certainties
Eliza Madrigal: And especially one's own
quen Oh: btw will be a bit more careful now I kind of grew up and people will no longer try to convince them with their certainties, will not mess with them deliberately anymore
Adams Rubble: :)
quen Oh: definitely, perhas we should never take any of our certainties serious
quen Oh: them = me* sorry
Eliza Madrigal: Understand. No overt button-pushing maybe...when will serve no purpose?
quen Oh: some people seems to be in perfect balance depending on their faith, doing good things and being nice to others, doing no harm, so no reason to disturb that
Eliza Madrigal: :)
quen Oh: especially since we know nothing either..
Adams Rubble: :)
Wol Euler nods
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: So now that faith isn't such a stumbling block...maybe we can talk more about hypothesis, Pema?
quen Oh: so except for old feelings Eliza, something else came up concerning faith?
Eliza Madrigal: Hm..yes, I think I hear it friendlier now :) See a nicer face on it
quen Oh: or perhaps Adams, Wol, Sophia do you have some perspective on faith?
Wol Euler smiles and shakes her head. Not really, not that I can put into words
Adams Rubble: Even though I have faith so I can remove mountains and have not love it profiteth me nothing
Adams Rubble: Paul (I Corinthians)
Pema Pera: :)
Eliza Madrigal: : )
Wol Euler nods
Eliza Madrigal: I think what I had to do, was drop that in my mind, the word had been taken over by religious/political entity in a way
Eliza Madrigal: And had been used to divide rather than connect
Wol Euler: agreed
Eliza Madrigal: So, Adams pretty much summed that up :)

We have a niceturnup: Fefonz is there too! He is about to witness that Adams confesses she will probably not turn into a raving lunatic - a shame! ;-) The conversation shifts to the concept of hypothesis, as Pema offered before related to faith.

Eliza Madrigal: Hey Fefonz :))
Adams Rubble: Hello fefonz :)
Fefonz Quan: Hey all :)
Pema Pera: Hi Fef!
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Fefonz
Wol Euler: hello fefonz
Pema Pera: Eliza mentioned the notion of hypothesis, which we talked about a few sessions ago
quen Oh nods, right Eliza, I truly belief that is the biggest problem of faith and religion: it very often divides people, instead of relates
quen Oh: hi Fefonz!
Fefonz Quan: aloha :)
Pema Pera: we can have faith in our conviction that it is worth while to pursue a certain hypothesis
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Pema Pera: that is a different kind of faith, but still is very much a faith
Pema Pera: and that kind of faith drives science
Adams Rubble: I have faith that PaB is not going to turn me into a raving lunatic
Eliza Madrigal: :D
Wol Euler: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Not raving anyway
Eliza Madrigal: ;-)
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: for someone to spend years in a lab, or behind a desk doing calculations, there has to be a strong conviction that it is worthwhile
Fefonz Quan: that's because you are hard to turn adams :)
Pema Pera: hehe, Adams :)
Wol Euler: a quiet and well-behaved lunatic, perhaps?
quen Oh: the nice thing of hypothesis is that at it's core there is no proof, and it provides you a direction to work on, to see whether it brings something of quality (which in science means causal and repeatable proof of it)
Eliza Madrigal nods
Pema Pera: and when working with a working hypothesis you are glad if others ask questions, helping you to question deeper
quen Oh is disappointed, trying to imagine Adams as a raving lunatic...
Fefonz Quan: causal and repeatable confirmation, to be accurate
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: So when engaging in Play as Being, we have a strong faith that it is worthwile to work with the notion of Being . . . .
Pema Pera: and this brings us to the theme for today: "Being and appearance and every-day life"
quen Oh: in faith matters searching for repeatable material proof seems not very interesting (what will it bring when we can proof 'god'.. we still would need to interprete what that means for us), searching for quality in broader perspective seems nicer , but might be wrong
Eliza Madrigal certainly has a strong sense and experience of PaB being worthwhile
quen Oh: nice Eliza
Pema Pera: Quen, we kind find things here too
Pema Pera: like you can find things in mathematics
Pema Pera: the nature of the findings is just different
Fefonz Quan: (i was just saying that there is no such thing as material proof, just evidence. )
Pema Pera: the nature of what you learn to see
Pema Pera: and you can share what you see
quen Oh: I agree Pema, it is only not limited to the material causal world
Pema Pera: sharing insight is a kind of resonance between two or more people, not like pouring water from one glass into another
Pema Pera: but once it is shared, it can be as clear as math
Eliza Madrigal nods... "happening upon the sky" is a phrase that comes up for me
Pema Pera: once you clearly see what the other was trying to point out, you have shared in an insight
quen Oh: and bring new interesting sharing
Fefonz Quan: it can be clear only if we have the language to communicate it
Adams Rubble: We seem to manage to share experiences even with our fauylty language
Pema Pera: up to a point, Fefonz
Eliza Madrigal: Relating personal examples is painting a picture
Pema Pera: beyond that, perhaps nonverbal means work too
Pema Pera: upon the sky, Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: Yes...when you see something...insight. It is all around..everywhere
quen Oh: nice comparison Eliza, the painting of the picture I mean
Eliza Madrigal: like happening upon the sky
Pema Pera: yes
Adams Rubble nods
Pema Pera: that brings us back to Quen's "the world seeming wider today" :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes!
Pema Pera: come join us if you like
quen Oh: when an artist paints a picture he sort of 'knows' what he wants to paint and what strike is good and what is not, but he mostly does not clearly see the end result of his painting
quen Oh: he "re"-cognises what he wants to paint in his painting
Fefonz Quan: and also everyone looks at the painting differently
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes I start with a bird, and end up with a volcano
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: so with the world looking larger
Pema Pera: that is such an interesting sense -- normally we shrink the world
Pema Pera: and live inside our own fortifications
Pema Pera: our own fears, our own defenses
Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes

Genesis joins us, while Pema is about to explain how the world can be enlarged in daily life...

Pema Pera: Hi Gen
quen Oh: hey Gen
Fefonz Quan: Hey Gen :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Genesis
Adams Rubble: Hello Gen :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Genesis
Pema Pera: So the hypothesis of Being as a resource can help us to get beyond our narrow fortifications
Wol Euler: hello gen
genesis Zhangsun: Hi everyone!
quen Oh: unless the hypothesis of Being is some sort of fixed idea about what 'Being' is.. that would be narrowing things again?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, one could narrow it for themselves into a fixed thing...but difficult when in communications which are fluid I think
Pema Pera: May I tell a little story?
Pema Pera: I'll make it brief
Eliza Madrigal: Please, sure

Pema's little story about a man in a house:

Pema Pera: Once upon a time there was a man living in a house, and never getting out
Pema Pera: he would look outside through the windows sometimes
Pema Pera: and had some curiosity about the outside world
Pema Pera: but never dared to venture out
Pema Pera: and the reason was: he was totally convinced that there was no space outside the house
Pema Pera: he was happy with his own space, but doubted very much that there was any space beyond the walls of his own house
Pema Pera: until some day something happened: somebody walked into the door and showed him that you can actually walk in and out of the door without falling outside space
Pema Pera: end of little story :-)

quen Oh: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: Sweet
quen Oh: nice
Pema Pera: and the application I have in mind here is about knowledge.
Fefonz Quan: at list he could see out of the windows all teh time
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Fefonz Quan: least*
Eliza Madrigal: But the windows were flat
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: We are raised with the idea that all of our knowledge is in our head
Pema Pera: is personal,
quen Oh: but he saw perhaps a world where you couldn't go Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: everythings we see is flat, so?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: that there simply is no knowledge outside our head that we can use as a resource
SophiaSharon Larnia: outside?
Fefonz Quan: like books?
Pema Pera: we are led to believe that we have to take knowledge in, we have to "eat" it with our eyes and brain etc, until it is safely inside our heads
quen Oh: is that true Pema? I learned knowledge is in books and the world outside and in other peoples heads...
Fefonz Quan: my oint too quen :)
Pema Pera: but what "Being as a resource" points to is that knowledge is everywhere, like space . . . . .
Fefonz Quan: point*
Pema Pera: Quen, we normally don't consider knowledge in a book useful if nobody reads it
quen Oh: ah you mean knowledge like a currency or something that can be transferred more than created?
Pema Pera: and we are learned to see knowledge as activated only when somebody has read a book
Pema Pera: it is all considered to be centered on persons
Fefonz Quan: no need for a bool to ride a bike
Fefonz Quan: book*
quen Oh: it is useful in that it can be read? as an oil well can be worthy even though it is not yet discovered?
Adams Rubble: the story points partly to the need for other people to help us see :)
Eliza Madrigal: the person reading brings the illumination...but only if there...meeting the author half way
genesis Zhangsun: perhaps your point Pema is that knowledge is always present
Pema Pera: yes!
Adams Rubble: but I see that the knowledge is there if we only are willing to explore too :)
genesis Zhangsun: it is not something to acquire
Eliza Madrigal: yes
genesis Zhangsun: it is something to appreciate
Pema Pera: yes to Adams too
quen Oh: always present, but created too all the time?
Eliza Madrigal nods
Fefonz Quan: that stands only for certain kinds of knowledge gen
genesis Zhangsun: yes how Fefonz?

Pema's clou to his story: knowledge outside ourselves is as much a resource as space is, it is there and can enlarge your world. We are about to find that the story has many interesting sides.

Pema Pera: yes, knowledge outside of ourselves is as much a resource as space is -- that's the point of my little story
Fefonz Quan: well try to make a phd without aquiring knowledge
genesis Zhangsun: :)
quen Oh: how exactly is space a resource?
Pema Pera: it allows you to do many things, Quen, in that way
Pema Pera: it allows you to leave your house :)
genesis Zhangsun: yes but did you really posess the information you learned Fefonz? Do you still posess it? If so tell me where it is?
quen Oh: if you don't move in it you will not experience and explore it you mean?
Eliza Madrigal: It is like a neighborhood in that I don't have to have everything my neighbor has in order to experience and enjoy it if they are friendly
Eliza Madrigal: And certainly visa versa
Fefonz Quan: most of is is gone, Gen, Halas :)
genesis Zhangsun: is it really acquisition is my point
Fefonz Quan: but it anyway took a lot of time to aquire
Pema Pera: maybe I am talking about a different kind of knowledge than Fef is
Eliza Madrigal: And worthwhile, Fefonz..opens many doors I'm sure
Fefonz Quan: it was not 'just there' so you can instatnly get it
genesis Zhangsun: acquisition suggests posession, do we really posess ideas?
quen Oh: well space, time, knowledge, it seems only interesting if we can relate to it in a certain way, it seems a continuous meaningless infinity if not...
Fefonz Quan: sure pema, that was my point, so i tried to make thing more precise
genesis Zhangsun: how so Quen?
Adams Rubble: The knowledge we have acquired is in the house. The story suggests that it is not all we need
Pema Pera: yes!
quen Oh: it is difficult to ponder on something or to conceive concepts like time, space, knowledge if you don't relate it to what is "you"
genesis Zhangsun: I don't think there is a "different" kind of knowledge
Fefonz Quan: no, we don't possess udeas Gen, sure. but still some of us have them, and some of us don't. you can call it borrowing if you like
genesis Zhangsun: how is the knowledge in the house truly separate from the knowledge outside?
genesis Zhangsun: could you call it appreciation Fefonz?
Pema Pera: not separate, but if we try to look for wider knowledge with the blueprint of the in-house knowledge, you may not find it
quen Oh: but indeed if we don't relate but stay only within what we know, we will only have a very limited sense of what is the space, knowledge and time around us
Fefonz Quan: no, i cal it emphirical experiece Gen.
Fefonz Quan: the man experienced with the knowledge in the house
genesis Zhangsun: thats good too wouldn't argue with that :)
quen Oh: you mean to not only use the perspective from inside out to the world, but to take the perspective from outside that sees you in your knowledge-house too Pema?

The house as means for delusion about the world outside, because it separates the man from going outside to actually look. Or even only the window can be a nice metaphor...

Fefonz Quan: you can also tell teh man that there are thousand of purple dragons outside the house
Pema Pera: (too many strands to follow up at once)
quen Oh smiles, always likes architectural discussions...
Pema Pera: (shall we pick one?)
Fefonz Quan is willing to kill the dragons if you like ;-)
quen Oh: you would want to know what the house is built of, what it looks like, but even more that he can move out of it and build a nicer one.. if he still wants a house when outside
genesis Zhangsun: yes? build a nicer one?
Wol Euler seems to be missing a fascinating and odd conversation ;-)
Pema Pera: (pab bell)
genesis Zhangsun: sorry forget about the silence
genesis Zhangsun: *forgot
Eliza Madrigal: :) This is what we do...we go in circles in the house : )...a walk would do us good :) Lol
genesis Zhangsun: hehe yes :)
quen Oh: [7:57] genesis Zhangsun: how is the knowledge in the house truly separate from the knowledge outside?... I don't think it is
Pema Pera is amused at the many different strands that sprung from his attempt at making a simple story metaphor

Unfortunately Adams has to leave.

Adams Rubble: I must return to RL. Thanks for the discussion e veryone :)
Adams Rubble: bye :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Adams, good to see you :)
genesis Zhangsun: bye Adams
Wol Euler: bye adams, take care. Happy Easter
quen Oh: bye Adams
Pema Pera: bye Adams
Fefonz Quan: [7:58] Fefonz Quan: no, i cal it emphirical experiece Gen. [7:58] Fefonz Quan: the man experienced with the knowledge in the house
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Adams
quen Oh: he only thinks he knows and can control the house better as he constantly relates himself to it
Fefonz Quan: or he just have no evidence (apart from the windows which i thin should be taken out of the story)
Fefonz Quan: that there is something outside
quen Oh: and he has no idea there is a world for him outside the house...
Eliza Madrigal: No, they should be opened :)
quen Oh: the windows are very interesting part of the story I think Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: if they are opened, he is a very weird man not to suppose there is something out there
Eliza Madrigal: yes, isn't he!
quen Oh: it means he can look, but that doesn´t change his conviction, because to him windows are paintings that he interprets as the part of the world he can see but not enter!
Eliza Madrigal: quen, yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: brb
quen Oh: he might not even realise they are 'windows' instead of paintings
Fefonz Quan: well they are moving, unlike any painting he can make inside the house
genesis Zhangsun: ah movement of the mind Fefonz?
quen Oh: than they can be television screens, where things happen that are not ´real´
Fefonz Quan: even for televisions, the first you show it to children, the natural reaction is to look for the little people inside
quen Oh: point is, he sees some form of 2dimensional projection screen, where things happen, but he apparently not interpretes it as a world he can actually participate in...
Eliza Madrigal: flatlander
quen Oh: if he ticks on the window, nothing happens outside..
Pema Pera: well, I think I will leave my story with you to elaborate :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fefonz Quan: the point i'm trying to make here, is not to make petite things against the house metaphor

And now Pema has to go too.

Pema Pera: bye everybody!
quen Oh: bye Pema
Eliza Madrigal: Pema, Thank you. Bye
genesis Zhangsun: bye Pema!
Wol Euler: bye pema, take care
Fefonz Quan: bye Pema!
SophiaSharon Larnia: my question is what if he chooses to stay in the house, what then?
quen Oh: you are not Fefonz, you are merely highlighting for me the very interesting metaphor of the windows in the house
Eliza Madrigal: So, that's what he chooses.
Fefonz Quan: just to argue, that in the real life, unlike the house you mentioned, there are very little evidence for 'something big outside'
Eliza Madrigal: The larger idea though, is that we're here, I think, because that's not what we choose...generally
Eliza Madrigal: ?
quen Oh: than he missed perhaps his biggest chance to get outside
genesis Zhangsun: well I must be off
quen Oh: dont't you think there will be no true evidence for the man in the house, unless he goes outside Fefonz?
genesis Zhangsun: have a nice day everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal: I like to walk across the courtyard and knock on Fefonz's door and ask what he's cooking...try a new food...maybe go home and make it
Fefonz Quan: yes, and i missed yesterday a chance to multiply my money ten times by putting all of it on a very risky stock

Also Wol has to say goodbye and leaves the conversation...

Wol Euler: and I, sadly. this is an interesting discussion, I look forward to reading it :)
Wol Euler: bye everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Bye genesis :)
genesis Zhangsun: bye!
Fefonz Quan: bye wol :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Wol
quen Oh: bye Wol
Fefonz Quan: bye Gen :)
quen Oh: bye Gen!
SophiaSharon Larnia: Bye Genesis, Wol
SophiaSharon Larnia: I must go too, have a great day everyone
Eliza Madrigal: I'm happy and glad for all the years Fefonz studied to make the dish...and maybe I can't make it quite as well....
Eliza Madrigal: but I can enjoy a version better than if I'd not tasted it
Fefonz Quan: (fefonz cooks quite nicely ;-))
Eliza Madrigal: (end of analogy for why the larger picture is vital)
quen Oh: the metaphore does not cut of the possibility to return to his house, your chance of making money would have more disastrous effects when it would have gone wrong...
Eliza Madrigal: :) French cuisine?
Eliza Madrigal: And if you didn't risk that little bit you had...might not have bought google at $25
Fefonz Quan: multiple styles :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
quen Oh: lol
Fefonz Quan: yep :)
quen Oh: well very sorry cannot try Fefonz's cooking
Fefonz Quan: what i am saying is, that we need to give the man in the house enough evidence in order for him to risk coming out
Eliza Madrigal: Why?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
quen Oh: indeed why Fefonz? we can just ask him for a little walk?
Eliza Madrigal: If he is determined not to go out, he has my number when he's ready. Lollol
Fefonz Quan: yes, but maybe it is very dangerous outside teh house?
quen Oh: if we continue to walk in and out his house for some nice visits and tell about the real nice world he might some day come along for one?
Fefonz Quan: for example, if a saintologist suggest you take a walk with him, would you do it?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I think so
quen Oh: why not Fefonz? if he is not also a serial killer?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fefonz Quan: and aren't you aware there is a risk there?
quen Oh: what risk?
Eliza Madrigal: Fef, we were talking about this before...about trusting oneself enough to know that you can use discernment
quen Oh: that you find the world is larger than you thought?
Eliza Madrigal: and if something doesn't resonate, you leave it
Eliza Madrigal: but you don't stop going outside
Fefonz Quan: but infact there are two major problems here:
quen Oh: and find a little bit more about what that looks like?
Fefonz Quan: 1) willing to risk getting out
quen Oh: what is the risk Fefonz?
Fefonz Quan: but 2) infact there is no way to just walk you out simply and jently
Eliza Madrigal: (that, as adams said, we will be raving lunatics?)
Fefonz Quan: that's the risk Eliza, but i find 2) to be the main obstacle
Fefonz Quan: if it was so easy, we would all dance in the park outside right now
Eliza Madrigal: :) Okay, lets go
quen Oh: well if the person shows you how to use your door, there is no obstacle, is there?
Eliza Madrigal: Fef, I thnk we're outside now...honestly
Fefonz Quan: Fef is inside, that's all he can say
Eliza Madrigal: I think being at PaB in this context...talking with one another...
Eliza Madrigal: is venturing
Eliza Madrigal: And I feel that your company is outside..so maybe your wals aren't so solid :)
quen Oh: will unfortunately have to go, hope to read later the rest of this, it seems very interesting now!

At this point I also sadly had to leave. Not very happy about it, as I still didn't get what exactly was the risk that Fefonz meant. (Was pondering whether it was the primal fear of people for change or cultural relativation which can be seen as a threat to the cultural framework you held dearly and are trusting upon.)

quen Oh: bye Eliza and Fefonz!
Eliza Madrigal: quen, bye for now :)
Fefonz Quan: Bye quen, thanks for the talk :)
quen Oh: thank you Fef!
quen Oh: liked your contribution a lot
Eliza Madrigal: It Is indeed funny how certain ideas or words can trigger such complex reactions
Fefonz Quan: i didn't think the reactions were so complex :)
Eliza Madrigal: Before you got here today, we talked a little about faith again...and how that word triggered such distractions for me to get through..as it can for many
Fefonz Quan: or the other way around: while the metaphor was simple, the real issue is very complex
Eliza Madrigal: Sure..but we can't start with complex together necessarily
Fefonz Quan: yes, faith. i think because we all met that word in many other circumstances
Eliza Madrigal: ye
Eliza Madrigal: *yes
Fefonz Quan: which for me is true also for the 'getting out of the house ' idea
Eliza Madrigal: Well...maybe small steps. There are many corners in the house around which maybe he hasn't ventured
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fefonz Quan: yep :)
Eliza Madrigal: And those darn friendly peole will keep walking by waving
Fefonz Quan: and if we go along with the metaphor, sometimes i fell that in our endeavor here, ther eis a fine line between getting out of the house and tearing the house down while doing it
Eliza Madrigal: Oh!
Eliza Madrigal: Now I see what you were getting at better.
Eliza Madrigal: I don't have that concern because I think each person explores according to their capacity
Eliza Madrigal: And maybe some of us don't want to live ni the house at all...
Eliza Madrigal: but we respect those who enjoy their houses
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fefonz Quan: so the persons with mroe capacity are at more risk? ;-)
Fefonz Quan: more*
Eliza Madrigal: Well, that isnt how I'd see it. It can be true, sure
Eliza Madrigal: But the guy in the house only thinks he is secure
Fefonz Quan: i still feel that the main problem is that it IS so hard to get one really out of the house
Eliza Madrigal: where will he run when the tornado comes and he doesn't know any neighbors
Fefonz Quan: well there are many neighbours in the house as we know it
Eliza Madrigal: he thinks he can't leave...even if he survives he doesn't understand...harder to learn when no house then before
Eliza Madrigal: and those with him can't help unless they've ventured out
Fefonz Quan: well, from my personal point of view, i think he can leave, he just don't know how
Eliza Madrigal: Breathing.
Eliza Madrigal: Opening the windows and getting comfortable with the outside temps
Fefonz Quan: sometimes he manages to get his head out of the window for a couple of minutes, and then he is back in the house again
Fefonz Quan: and the knobs opening the windows are ever changing
Eliza Madrigal: Yup..so he can go the mailbox one day...maybe the next day stay in...until it is more natural, comfortable. If he likes.
Fefonz Quan: sure, but the issue is that the path to the mailbox changes every day
Eliza Madrigal: The thing is, I think we don't get to a place like this unless we've had some sort of glimpse or taste outside the house...that we liked
Eliza Madrigal: And it can be part of the fun....looking to see how the knob presents itself
Fefonz Quan: but i say something more harsh, that even if you had a glimpse, it is not enough
Eliza Madrigal: Sure it isn't
Fefonz Quan: in fact it is simetimes even harder, because he know there is beautiful things outside
Fefonz Quan: but he can't go see them whenever he likes,
Fefonz Quan: so the understanding that he is in a prison makes his stay much more difficult in a way
Eliza Madrigal: Thus suffering
Fefonz Quan: thus bigger suffering, 'because' you started teh path!
Eliza Madrigal: Ah...yes. I've felt like that...like I've been dropped or abandoned by something I was blissful in
Fefonz Quan: (or to quote cypher: ' why oh why didn't i take the blue peel "
Fefonz Quan: )
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Still.... safety in the house is an illusion. "Whatever we do or don't do, we are utterly exposed" Kay Ryan
Fefonz Quan: i agree.
Fefonz Quan: but i hope my point was clear, cause i think finally after that long discussion i managed to make it clear, for myself too :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I think so. Of course I'll read over too! :)
Eliza Madrigal: There were definitely strands in there i missed :)
Eliza Madrigal: And my take on it is well... maybe lighter. :)
Fefonz Quan: yes, but even the later ones we wrote in the last ten minutes says most of it (my poin at least). the whole discussion ws very interesting and multiple threded, yes
Fefonz Quan: are you teh GoC/
Fefonz Quan: ?
Eliza Madrigal: yes...as are many here. :) Have enjoyed this. No, that woulod be quen today
Eliza Madrigal: If I"m going to go to the workshop later, I need to let my son have the computer and run errands :)
Fefonz Quan: yep :)
Fefonz Quan: just wanted to offer a title: 'burning down the house' :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hah! She'll see that. : )
Eliza Madrigal: Great one
Fefonz Quan: cool :))
Fefonz Quan: SO have a great day, Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: You too Fef. :) Bye
Fefonz Quan: namaste