2009.04.07 13:00 - Faith, The Final Frontier

The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

Qt Core: hi Wester
Wester Kiranov: hi qt
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wester, QT:)
Wester Kiranov: hi scathach
Qt Core: Hi Scathach
Wester Kiranov: yes, you may remind me. I am at reading the last log now, will probably post tomoorow morning. sorry for the delay
Scathach Rhiadra: ty:)
Qt Core: hi ferocious, fefonz
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Ferocious, Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: hey Qt, Scathach, Wester, Ferici :)
Ferocious Melody: Hi Qt, Scathach, Wester, Fefonz :)
Wester Kiranov: hi fer, fef
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Wester Kiranov: what's IYA 2009?
Qt Core: Internation Year of Astronomy
Qt Core: International
Fefonz Quan: ( i thought of In Your ... ;-))
Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
Qt Core: ehm ;-)
Qt Core: I haven't seen yet what the group does, but as an amateru astronomer i HAD to wear it
Scathach Rhiadra: have you been to the IYA sim yet?
Qt Core: no
Qt Core: there are things i tend to avoid... as i fear of loosing myself there ;-)
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, but you may be missing some interesting things:)
Wester Kiranov: is it possible not to?
Fefonz Quan ponders - loosing yourself vs. see intersting things.... hmmmm
Qt Core: hard decision
Ferocious Melody: Or losing interesting things-heh
Scathach Rhiadra: can you appreciate them sithout getting lost in them?
Scathach Rhiadra: without*
Qt Core: probably
Wester Kiranov: Fer: vs. seeing yourself, you mean? :)
Fefonz Quan: (you are correct Ferci)
Qt Core: (i found the tag/group just a couple days ago (here))
Wester Kiranov: who's the GoC for this session anyway?
Fefonz Quan: Oh, i think it's mick and i promised to replace him ;-)
Ferocious Melody: :) Maybe Wester. Not sure really.
Fefonz Quan: Thanks for reminding me wester
Fefonz Quan: I liked very much the emails about faith
Ferocious Melody: In what way, Fefonz?
Ferocious Melody: (everyone knows this is El, yes?)
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Ferocious Melody: :) K
Wester Kiranov: what does El mean?
Ferocious Melody: Eliza...sorry Wester :)
Fefonz Quan: Well, first i thought that this issue is most worthy looking itno, and moreover when lately i find that my faith is a little ahky
Wester Kiranov: ok
Fefonz Quan: than, the quotes of Tilapia were beautiful
Fefonz Quan: then *
Qt Core: wonderful
Ferocious Melody: Yes, they are.
Scathach Rhiadra grins, yes they were
Ferocious Melody: I was surprised when Pema started with Faith during the discussion
Qt Core: even the one about attacment in the wiki page
Ferocious Melody: And then surprised at how much baggage there can be with it :)
Fefonz Quan: i think in a way there is a lot of baggage since literally it has several different meanings
Ferocious Melody: Yes, true
Ferocious Melody: I'm still not sure quite where we're coming from, but the Monday talk was a lot clearer then the first :)
Ferocious Melody: (to me)
Qt Core: and i slept through that, damn
Ferocious Melody: :) It's up though
Fefonz Quan: what clear sense of faith did you get Feroci?
Ferocious Melody: Well, I'm coming clearer to just allowing it to be a willingness to explore starting with experience
Ferocious Melody: And it is more clearly fitting in with what you all have been up to for a year...
Ferocious Melody: a shared vocabularly, etc
Fefonz Quan: well, i have been here for just a few months, and i don't recall faith as a regular issue
Fefonz Quan: hello tiffany
Qt Core: hi Tiffany
Wester Kiranov: hello tiffany
Tiffany Seminario: Hi Fefonz
Ferocious Melody: Yes...this is true...why the word surprised me
Scathach Rhiadra: true, I can't remember it being discussed either:)
Ferocious Melody: Hi Tiffany
Fefonz Quan: have youo been here before Tiffany?
Qt Core: (strange)
Tiffany Seminario: no
Ferocious Melody: Well...maybe in talkign about things that look like faith....
Fefonz Quan: we are a group that talk and do also meditations concerning the nature of reality....
Ferocious Melody: my best way of getting to it was to talk of terms of one's experience not being necessarily understandable from outside of one's experience
Ferocious Melody: (I'm gentle Tiffany, really-lol)
Fefonz Quan: is she still herer?
Ferocious Melody: No...guess not.
Scathach Rhiadra: no, gone
Fefonz Quan: k
Ferocious Melody: Fef, what do you mean when you say your faith is shaky?
Fefonz Quan: in what way do you connect faith with experience ?
Fefonz Quan: sorry, i'll answer first
Ferocious Melody: thanks :)
Fefonz Quan: I use faith in the meaning of trust,
Fefonz Quan: not trust ini someone but a certain sense of trust that the 'way' i am going is useful for me, has good roots as well as good friuts
Fefonz Quan: fruits*
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Wester Kiranov: roots not fruits - have you been talking to pema? ;-)
Ferocious Melody: So trust in yourself is your sense of faith, Fef? Your ability to learn and grow and sort and get through things?
Fefonz Quan: well i have been talking a lot to pema, i am in his IAs interdisciplinary department for the last months :)
Wester Kiranov: I do love that mist on the fountain during silence
Ferocious Melody: Yes Wester, really nice.
Fefonz Quan: yet, mistisizm at its best :)
Wester Kiranov: :D
Fefonz Quan: not exactly just in myself Fero
Fefonz Quan: more like faith in the path and practices we discuss here
Fefonz Quan: and bye the way, wester, for me it is easier to trust the path and the friuts than the roots, which seem quite theoretical
Wester Kiranov: ok
Scathach Rhiadra: may I ask, in yesterday's discussion,which approach did you feel most um, comfortable with?
Fefonz Quan: which discussion Scath? i didn't read the chat yet... any link?
Fefonz Quan: (or short summary?)
Scathach Rhiadra: the theme session with Stim and Pema
Fefonz Quan: ah, i was in that one.
Ferocious Melody: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: yes:)
Fefonz Quan: i got a bit confused with all teh existance and appearances
Ferocious Melody: I heard a term today to add to the others "mutual arising"
Fefonz Quan: yes, quite similar to interdependant
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, same as co-dependent or interdependent arising
Ferocious Melody: yes...but nice term
Fefonz Quan: :)
Qt Core: i got lost several times yesterday ;-)
Fefonz Quan: maybe the thing i find most hard to grasp - hence get faith in - is the 'non-existance' of things as we know them, and then the no-time
Ferocious Melody: That the idea that there isn't ultimately, anything, can seem comforting to some?
Fefonz Quan: sure it can seem comforting. also the big beardy father in the sky can seem comforting
Ferocious Melody: heheh
Wester Kiranov: I do have faith that at this moment I do not undersatnd fully what is meant exactly by that non-existence
Ferocious Melody: Well...that's why faith is tricky. Personally, I can't say that's how it is...but it has a certain resonance with me I can't deny, if that makes sense
Fefonz Quan: throwing out comforting ideas and get people to believe in them is a very known procedure, and a one i try very hard to stay out of
Ferocious Melody: and I'm comforted by PaB not being about "believing" anything in particular, for sure
Fefonz Quan: yes, me too
Ferocious Melody: so...the blind faith is the trickiest...why I was up at 3 AM writing that email
Ferocious Melody: :)
Wester Kiranov: for instance, non-existence could possibly be the very same thing as existence if you get your terms right. Believing in the nonexistence of something is as much a problem as believioing in the existence of something. imho
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, don't think many of us would be here if it required believing anything:)
Fefonz Quan: :)
Ferocious Melody: Yes...but opening to the idea of it is way different than "accepting on faith"
Ferocious Melody: And yes!
Fefonz Quan: yes Feroci, i think that's exactly my notion of blind faith
Fefonz Quan: (answered your previous one)
Wester Kiranov: so - we have faith that opening up is a good thing?
Ferocious Melody: I think I do :)
Fefonz Quan: i think so too :)
Ferocious Melody: But I leave open the possibility I could be off
Ferocious Melody: :)
Wester Kiranov: :)
Qt Core: i'm starting to believe that after some 20 years
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, and I think experience has shown that faith to be justified, here at least
Fefonz Quan: sure, that's why from time to time i try to get some reality check :)
Ferocious Melody: :)
Ferocious Melody: Yes, we all have our experiences of how our paradigms have shifted...and which ones seem productive and freeing..and that's what I mean by experience..one's light within, as it were
Fefonz Quan: (what does it mean one's light within?)
Ferocious Melody: And the safety built into PaB is that questioning and so many diff. views and backgrounds!
Ferocious Melody: For me, it merely means that when something doesn't resonate with me personally...
Ferocious Melody: no matter how much it sings to everyone else...
Ferocious Melody: then, it isn't that I throw it out, but I listen :)
Fefonz Quan: well sometimes things 'resonate' with me because they are so fascinating to contemplate and discuss
Fefonz Quan: and sometimes it touches something in the back of the mind, saying there is something toit
Wester Kiranov: guys - i'm a bit tired, and I still have some scribing to do, if not now at least i'll have to get up on time tomorrow to do it. So i'll leave you to the rest of this discussion and say bye now.
Scathach Rhiadra: like a recognition of something you already knew, but didn't know you knew
Qt Core: bye wester
Ferocious Melody: Bye Wester :)
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Wester, good night
Fefonz Quan: Bye Wester
Ferocious Melody: Scath...yes, that's how I think of resonance
Wester Kiranov: namaste
Scathach Rhiadra: Namasté
Ferocious Melody: Namaste
Fefonz Quan: this one, yet sometimes it is very vague, and another voice says that maybe i want it to be true,
Qt Core: or something you'll like to understand, believe to understand but every now and then sprout new meanings and ideas
Wester Kiranov: and now in the right direction!
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Ferocious Melody: :)
Wester Kiranov: namaste
Fefonz Quan: namaste!
Ferocious Melody: Qt, certainly! That is another way of looking at blind faith maybe...
Fefonz Quan: (somehoe the exclamation doesn't fit there...)
Ferocious Melody: that there isn't any reason you are captivated...you just are...so you follow the line with a sense that something may dawn -lol
Qt Core: (i'm thimking about the six words of Tilapia from this morning email that are still running arouynd in my haed)
Fefonz Quan: i wa talking just before the session with a good friend of mine
Fefonz Quan: and tried to tell her what we are talking about and practicing
Ferocious Melody: Qt, it does seem to capture the approach here in a wonderful way
Fefonz Quan: now she has experience with buddhism, but mostly teravada, meaning suffering, adn of suffering etc.
Fefonz Quan: and no super-natural dimenstions of existance/non existance
Qt Core: i wasn't thinking in term of faith, maybe just unconscious thinking but making it growing it may be
Fefonz Quan: and finally she asked me - life can be, and is, so beautiful, exciting, and great,
Fefonz Quan: why do we need that no-space no-time concepts?
Ferocious Melody: (just wants to clarify in case my email gave a diff. impression, that I don't think what I have is a supernatural view, at all --I know it may sound that way :)
Ferocious Melody: Fef, she has a beautiful point
Ferocious Melody: :)
Fefonz Quan: ah, no Feroci, i wasnt talkig about your view
Fefonz Quan: but more about discussions like yestereday with pema/Stim
Ferocious Melody: Thanks :)
Ferocious Melody: Her thought on that is lovely...there is nothign better than *this*
Fefonz Quan nods
Qt Core: maybe i'm wrong but i condensed your email like thet fero "i don'n know from wher the next wonder will come and i like it"
Qt Core: like this
Ferocious Melody: Qt, yes! that is pretty much it. haha
Fefonz Quan: wll i have total faith in that one Qt :)
Scathach Rhiadra: maybe understanding realtiy would give a n even better appreciation of 'this', as it is..
Fefonz Quan: hello antigone
Ferocious Melody: My concern is that it sounds flighty "from outside"...but to me is very solid.
Ferocious Melody: Hi Antigone
antigone Canucci: hello
antigone Canucci: hello
Qt Core: me too i think and i think is one of the few things that make me like (or at least don't dislike) even Mondays (unlike most does)
Qt Core: hi antigone
Fefonz Quan: Antigone,we are a group doing meditation and exploration on the nature of reality,
antigone Canucci: ok
Ferocious Melody: Yes,Mhm...about a deeper appreciation.
Fefonz Quan: and we also record our conversation here,
antigone Canucci: how i can do for sit down
Fefonz Quan: right click on a cushion then 'sit down
Qt Core: right click and choose sit here
Fefonz Quan: so we need your approval to be in teh chat log on our wiki site
antigone Canucci: ok tahnks
antigone Canucci: thanks
Ferocious Melody: That note is something I think your friend was feeling Fefonz...
Ferocious Melody: ?
Ferocious Melody: ?
Fefonz Quan: yes, thanks Qt,
Ferocious Melody: Oops...2nd? a mistake
Scathach Rhiadra: ty Ferocious
Fefonz Quan: thanks Feroci, sorry :)
Fefonz Quan: what's the problem with mondays Qt?
Qt Core: i read a lot of fiction but yes, even the smallest real thing is better usually just thinking about the simplest of the things, seeing the grass coming back green
Ferocious Melody: :)
Qt Core: well, i see so many people hating mondays (and not only as they overdo themselves in the weekends)
Fefonz Quan: i don;t work for the last months, but mostly when i was working, and mostly i liked the places i worled at, monday was just another nice day,
Fefonz Quan: meeting the guys after the weekend
Fefonz Quan: and getting back to do some 'useful' stuff :)
Ferocious Melody: Just another appearance to appreciate..."monday"...hehe
Qt Core: rl calling have to go, bye all
Ferocious Melody: :) Bye Qt
Fefonz Quan: adn Qt, the gras is great, but great fiction can be inspiring too
Scathach Rhiadra: bye QT
Fefonz Quan: bye QT..
Fefonz Quan: grass*
Ferocious Melody: Fef, I think what you were saying about your friend, is such a good way to get to the heart of what we were trying to discuss with faith
Ferocious Melody: Because it is practical
Fefonz Quan: yes, she had great way of looking and seeing things.
Ferocious Melody: People think of meditators as very "distant" people
Ferocious Melody: High *up* on a mountain...not bringing what they are learning into daily life
Fefonz Quan: which in a way made me more rrustrated not succeeding to describe to her what we do and why
Ferocious Melody: And she being buddhist, knows meditation and introspection...maybe not play?
Ferocious Melody: I don't know. :) At all. :) What I'm grasping at too
Fefonz Quan: she is not 'a buddhist' just practice some :)
Ferocious Melody: (here Pema would say to release the grasp maybe- lol)
Scathach Rhiadra: did it make you doubt what we do here
Fefonz Quan: i like the term Osho had to oppose the 'out of daily life buddhists':
Fefonz Quan: it's 'Zorba the Buddha'
Fefonz Quan: Scath, wht made me uncomfort, was that if i understand and 'see' something whole heartedly, mostly i find the words to talk about it with others
Fefonz Quan: and when i find it heard to communicate, it shows me that i didn't absorb it yet, maybe i can say words about it, but without true internal understanding
Fefonz Quan: hard*
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Ferocious Melody nods...makes senes
Ferocious Melody: sense*
Ferocious Melody: Which is perfectly fine, right? ...feeling in over one's head a bit?
Ferocious Melody: And not pretending to get it...just paying attention?
Fefonz Quan: over one's head is one thing, over one;s guts/heart is another
Ferocious Melody: Ahhh
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, yes that is different:)
Fefonz Quan: a little bit like one of the last chat's Wol had, with the broken egg
Fefonz Quan: where what i got from it, is that down under, after all these non-time talks, teh egg falls, and breaks, and that's all there is to it
Ferocious Melody: But maybe the egg fallig and breaking isn't such a disaster anymore
Ferocious Melody: "Well..the egg fell and broke"
Fefonz Quan: well that wasn't such a disaster to start with :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Ferocious Melody: YES
Ferocious Melody: (but I know the time discussion is way different....have not been present in too many)
Fefonz Quan: it is not so different from teh chat logs about it (if you were talking about the workshop Fer)
Ferocious Melody: yes, mostly. thanks :)
Scathach Rhiadra: well sometimes I find that not all we discuss 'resonates' with me too:)
Fefonz Quan: (btw - no dream workshop today, right?)
Scathach Rhiadra: right, Maxine is travelling
Fefonz Quan: thanks Scath, not leaving me non-resonating alone :)
Scathach Rhiadra: no, you are definetly not alone in that:)
Ferocious Melody: :)) Sometimes everything will resonate, and then nothing will and I pull back and let it settle
Fefonz Quan: Yet, a major part of my faith, comes from knowing (and experienced) that a lot of times along the path, there are stages of routine practice, when the next (quantum?) leap waits patiently behind the corner
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, so you have that faith to keep going, knowing the doubts will pass
Fefonz Quan: yes, i hope so :)
Ferocious Melody: :)
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Ferocious Melody: I'm thinking about that more Fef, so true... :)
Ferocious Melody: That's a faith I can embrace :)
Scathach Rhiadra: and I don't think that faith is 'blind' faith, because your experience gives a reason to keep going, so to speak
Ferocious Melody: A pattern of unfolding clarity which comes from experience..Hmm
Scathach Rhiadra: previous experience
Ferocious Melody: yes :) I need a bigger smiley right now
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Fefonz Quan: yes, not blind also because though there are some small steps that need 'little blind faiths' or small leaps of faith,
Fefonz Quan: on the longer run i can look up and see where i am going, and also change things where i feel it is more appropriate for me
Fefonz Quan: And - maybe importantly - i kind of have faith in myself to chose the right distances between the two
Fefonz Quan: choose*
Ferocious Melody: yes...or to be able to turn around and go in another direction if you like :)
Ferocious Melody: Just cause you'd like to
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, and trust in what your heart tells you:)
Ferocious Melody: :)
Ferocious Melody: Okay....My son is over my shoulder at the computer ready to play Spore. I appreciate this time very much. Thank you.
Fefonz Quan: yep :) it's done quite a nice job so far :)
Fefonz Quan: THank you Ferocious
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Ferocious, take care:)
Ferocious Melody: :) Bye Scath and Fefonz. C you soon :)
Scathach Rhiadra: yes thank you both for this:)
Fefonz Quan: thank you Scath :)
Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, got an early start tomorrow, see you soon Fefonz, Namasté
Fefonz Quan: Namaste _/!\_