2009.04.09 13:00 - Dialogue Fefonz-Pema #6

The guardian for this session was Storm Nordwind. The comments are Storm's.

Fefonz Quan: :)
Fefonz Quan: Hello Adelene, wester
Fefonz Quan: Hey Storm
Adelene Dawner: Hi Storm :)
Wester Kiranov: hi storm
Storm Nordwind: Hieveryone
Adelene Dawner: Hiya Pem :)
Fefonz Quan: nice new horn Ade :)
Adelene Dawner: :)
Fefonz Quan: hi Pema
Pema Pera: Yes, indeed, Adelene!
Storm Nordwind agrees
Pema Pera: Hi Adelene, Fefonz, Wester, Storm!
Wester Kiranov: fijn dat je er weer bent pema ;)
Pema Pera: ja, weg van teruggeweest :)
Wester Kiranov: :D
Fefonz Quan: is it only me or there are colorful twinklings going around here
Adelene Dawner: I can turn it off if it's a diastraction, Fef.
Fefonz Quan: no, it's nice :)
Adelene Dawner: thanks ^.^
Fefonz Quan: like small crack in space opening and closing

I began by reminding people it was dialogue session.

Storm Nordwind: So we hope to continue the dialogue today that we interrupted last week because of login problems
Pema Pera: and because of roming hoards of Dutch and Belgian avatars . . . .
Storm Nordwind: And the rolling restart has already passed over us here

Pema also summarised where we were up to.

Pema Pera: So Fefonz and I have had quite a number of theme meetings now
Pema Pera: would we like to continue those?
Pema Pera: or switch to something else?
Pema Pera: Being seeing was the last theme
Pema Pera: or Being and all that
Storm Nordwind smiles
Pema Pera: if I remember correctly
Storm Nordwind: What is your preference Fefonz?
Fefonz Quan: mostly i would think that the interest of the audience is imprtant
Storm Nordwind: I was interested in the last theme. I am interested in very many of them.
Pema Pera: Hi Udge!
Storm Nordwind: We can wait a moment to ask the others perhaps

We paused while we decided on the topic.

Wester Kiranov: hi udge
Pema Pera: Wester and Adelene?
Udge Watanabe: hello everyone
Storm Nordwind: Greetings Udge!
Pema Pera: Hi Udge, we're talking about what to talk about
Udge Watanabe: heheheheh
Udge Watanabe: meta-meeting
Adelene Dawner doesn't have any particular suggestions today.
Pema Pera: the earlier themes of Being seeing or something different
Udge Watanabe: we might talk about Spring?
Fefonz Quan: ONe question i can think of , is like closing the circle, coming back to Being, and than contrast it with the appereciating appearances
Pema Pera: go right ahead, Fef!
Wester Kiranov: I think about any theme can be helpful, as long as it doesn't encourage idle chat tooo much
Storm Nordwind agrees
Fefonz Quan: :) good point Wester
Storm Nordwind: And that's a good one Fef
Squee: The only tyrant I accept in this world is the still voice within.
Pema Pera looking forward to see Fef close a circle :)

Fefonz began his questions

Fefonz Quan: So our last investiagtion was about 'Being seeing' if i recall
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: a very powerful way to cut through any kind of problem
Fefonz Quan: and another term we used (and still discuss wuite a lot on mondays) is APA
Pema Pera: and yes they are related
Fefonz Quan: Appereciation of the presences of appearances
Pema Pera: Hi Tenk!
Tenk Kidd: Hi Pema :)
Fefonz Quan: when i contemplate both of them, i seee a difference that might be worthy of looking into
Fefonz Quan: in APA, which i find more natural (except when Stim talk aabout it, which throws me away ;-))
Fefonz Quan: i am sitting quitely in my chair, drop my concepts as i can, and 'observe' teh appearances rising around me, (which includes feelings, thoughts etc.)
Fefonz Quan: and also 'color' it with some appereciatin, trying not to do it forcefully.
Fefonz Quan: Then, in 'Being seeing', it's more like 'taking my hands of the wheeldrive', thus letting Being (whatever that means) take over.
Fefonz Quan: So it doesn't sounds the same, or is it? how does others feel about it?
Pema Pera: If I can make a suggestion, as a practice during the next 90 seconds break: how about a combination: Let Being appreciate the presence of appearance?
Pema Pera: see what happens :)
Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
Fefonz Quan: Hi Sophia
sophia Placebo: hello
sophia Placebo: hi fef

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Fefonz Quan: i was done, should i recopy my last question?
Pema Pera: sure
Fefonz Quan: [13:13] Fefonz Quan: Then, in 'Being seeing', it's more like 'taking my hands of the wheeldrive', thus letting Being (whatever that means) take over.
[13:14] Fefonz Quan: So it doesn't sounds the same, or is it? how does others feel about it?
Fefonz Quan: (or we can speak about the exercise)
Pema Pera: [13:14] Pema Pera: If I can make a suggestion, as a practice during the next 90 seconds break: how about a combination: Let Being appreciate the presence of appearance?
Pema Pera: either way, Fef!
Udge Watanabe: hello aurel
Pema Pera: Hi Aurel!
aurel Miles: hello Everyone!
aurel Miles: sorry to come in late
sophia Placebo: hi aurel
Fefonz Quan: well, at least for me that is to much concepts to observe in one short meditation
Pema Pera: np, Aurel, all of us come and go here :)
Fefonz Quan: hi aurel
aurel Miles: Hi
aurel Miles: hi hi
Wester Kiranov: I though it was a nice pointer back to wwhat Play as Being means (pemas exercise)
Wester Kiranov: and now the computer is needed - might see some of you at stim's talk
Fefonz Quan: bye west/
Pema Pera waves to Wester's computer
Udge Watanabe: bye wester
Wester Kiranov: namaste
aurel Miles: ByeWester
Adelene Dawner: I think I'll head out too - getting a bit of a headache, going to go take a nap. See you all next time. :)
aurel Miles: Bye Adelene
Fefonz Quan: Bye ade :)
Udge Watanabe: sorry to hear it, Ade. Take care,
aurel Miles: wow - do i know how to clear a room, or what?
Udge Watanabe: :)
Fefonz Quan: :)
sophia Placebo: :)

Pema told us his own impression and this was followed by a confusion over Fefonz's words!

Pema Pera: One difference I felt was that in appreciating the presence of appearance, I was trying to drop concepts in a subtle way, while in letting Being appreciate, there was no longer any sense in dropping anything, there was just appreciation for anything that presented itself
aurel Miles listens, trying to pick up the thread
Fefonz Quan: if i can talk about the original Being seeing, (not the linear combination), i wasn't sure the appereciatin was there
aurel Miles: i do not understand that word
aurel Miles: and that is causing me to stumble a bit
Fefonz Quan: which word Aurel?
Udge Watanabe: "appreciation"?
aurel Miles: apperciatin
aurel Miles: yes
aurel Miles: i've never seen or heard it before
aurel Miles: maybe it's context?
aurel Miles: i thought it was appreciation
aurel Miles: but -
aurel Miles: maybe I'm being thick - i will listen for a while
Fefonz Quan: surely you are correct aurel
Fefonz Quan: sorry for my engrrish :)
Pema Pera appreciates the linguistic difficulties :)
Pema Pera: yes, we are talking about appreciating, Aurel
Pema Pera: the sentence we sometimes work with in Play as Being is:
Pema Pera: "appreciate the presence of appearance as a presentation by Being"
Pema Pera: or for short "appreciate the presence of appearance"
Pema Pera: in other words, appreciate the presence of all that shows itself in any way
Fefonz Quan: ops, maybe there is something for me there

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aurel Miles: that concept is extremely dense - complex
aurel Miles: especially using this medium
Pema Pera: as a concept yes, but the idea is to repeat this sentence in RL, many times, quietly
Pema Pera: as a kind of meditation
Fefonz Quan: yes, maybe thats why it's about the tenth meeting of last weeks focusing on it :)
Pema Pera: or like a sweet to hold under your tongue
Pema Pera: So one way to unwrap it is to start at the end
Pema Pera: with "appreciation"
Pema Pera: sorry
Pema Pera: with "appearance" :-)
Pema Pera: so step 1) : see everything as an appearance
Pema Pera: you see a table: see the appearance of a table
Pema Pera: you think a thought: view the thought as an appearance of a thought
Pema Pera: same with feelings, imaginations, anything, a smell, a touch
Pema Pera: step 2) : focus on the presence of that appearance
Pema Pera: ultimately, we don't know what the nature of reality is
Pema Pera: so we don't know what the real nature of that appearance is
aurel Miles noods
aurel Miles nods
Pema Pera: but the one thing we know is that it is present
aurel Miles: is the appearance
Pema Pera: so that at least we can acknowledge wholeheartedly
aurel Miles: is that right?
Fefonz Quan: (trying to balance the circle)
Pema Pera: and in doing so appreciate it whole heartedly
Pema Pera: yes
aurel Miles: i think i am beginning to see
Pema Pera: so it's a refinement, a distillation
Pema Pera: a chair is no longer primarily a tool, or something to sit on or buy
Pema Pera: a chair is a chair
Pema Pera: to be appreciated in its presence
aurel Miles: or the appearance of one
Pema Pera: a thought is a thought
Pema Pera: yes, you can thus appreciate the one taste of appearance
Pema Pera: that will happen by itself
Pema Pera: Hi Gen!
Fefonz Quan: Hey Gen :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
aurel Miles: HI Genesis
sophia Placebo: hi gen
Udge Watanabe: hello gen

Fefonz's questions having been addressed, Pema started a dialogue with aurel!

Pema Pera: Does that help, Aurel?
aurel Miles: yes it does
aurel Miles: but
Fefonz Quan: I appreciate that explanation Pema, it was nice adn clear
Pema Pera: do you see parallels with first Nation practices?
aurel Miles: well
aurel Miles: i find it helpful to stop a step before the chair being a chair
aurel Miles: i like the stretch i feel when i think about the chair or the thought
aurel Miles: as the appearance of a chair or a thought
Pema Pera: yes
aurel Miles: because that makes room for the idea that i may not understand its nature
Pema Pera: YES!
aurel Miles: and that, in turn, makes room for paradox and contradiction
aurel Miles: and that - (pardon my rambling)
Pema Pera: (not at all, Aurel!)
aurel Miles: makes me think of the idea of matter as being not-solid (you enter into everything you touch - if find that interesting)
Storm Nordwind likes intelligent rambling!
aurel Miles: and that returns me to the first nations idea that everything is
aurel Miles: imbued with its own life
Pema Pera: yes, matter and also thoughts -- so often our thoughts seem impenetrable at first . . . .
aurel Miles: in communication with other lives
aurel Miles: but the communication is always different
aurel Miles: and always exactly the same
aurel Miles: ha - sorry
aurel Miles: but that is one central idea that i really like
Fefonz Quan liked the word - imbued :)
aurel Miles: there are so many ways to express that
Pema Pera: the one taste pervading the ten thousand appearances . . . .

aurel brought in an artistic concept to illustrate her ideas

aurel Miles: have you ever seen a haida depiction of an animal
aurel Miles: yes!
aurel Miles: if you look at Haida art
aurel Miles: every point at which an animal is jointed
aurel Miles: or makes contact
Pema Pera: http://www.brianhayes.com/images/hai...easing-sun.jpg
aurel Miles: with their environment
aurel Miles: every point has an oviod
aurel Miles: ovoid
aurel Miles: a lot has been written about that
Udge Watanabe nods thoughtfully
genesis Zhangsun: what is an ovoid?
aurel Miles: but a little of it is that those points are points of contact - like communication
aurel Miles: an ovoid is like a rounded rectangle
genesis Zhangsun: ty :)
aurel Miles: like an eye
aurel Miles: and if you go one step further
aurel Miles: often when a whale is drawn
aurel Miles: or carved
aurel Miles: there is a face in the blowhole

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Pema Pera: http://www.houseofthespiritbear.com/...aida_whale.jpg
aurel Miles: as though that communication has a perspective of its own
aurel Miles: it's more clear in drawings
aurel Miles: the Hunt Brothers work
aurel Miles: for example
aurel Miles: he united the two worlds
aurel Miles: tends to be more traditional that way than Reid
aurel Miles: anyway
aurel Miles: that's what i'm thinking about - it's easy to see on Raven's wings
aurel Miles: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...num=1&ct=image
aurel Miles: whew
aurel Miles: let me clean that up
Pema Pera: yes, we can learn a lot about appreciation that way, from many traditions -- like Shinto in Japan too

gen drew some parallels

genesis Zhangsun: aurel Miles: as though that communication has a perspective of its own
genesis Zhangsun: I thought this was an interesting idea
aurel Miles: http://www.nativeonline.com/limited.html
genesis Zhangsun: gives me a sense that there are eyes everywhere
aurel Miles: it's also like Pema said
aurel Miles: the appearance of presence
aurel Miles: oops
Pema Pera: :)
aurel Miles: the presence of appearance
Pema Pera: that too!
Storm Nordwind chuckles
aurel Miles: ha

Udge Watanabe quietly excuses himself. "It's been a long day and I am falling asleep in my chair. Goodnight all, happy Easter/Pesach/Spring to you."

genesis Zhangsun: and yet Being has no perspective
genesis Zhangsun: and complete perspective
aurel Miles: yes
aurel Miles: exactly
Pema Pera: allowing all perspectives
Pema Pera: u 2 U
aurel Miles: everything is "right"
genesis Zhangsun: yes perhaps allowing is a better word
genesis Zhangsun: less of a sense of posession
aurel Miles nods
Pema Pera: possession is about past and future
Pema Pera: presence is free arising
aurel Miles: i find in my own cultural context so many people are afraid that they will be wrong in a discussion
aurel Miles: especially when it comes to First Nations issues
aurel Miles: that if i can reassure them that even if i hold an opposing view
Pema Pera: I'm so glad you are sharing all this with us, Aurel
aurel Miles: their view is absolutely correct
aurel Miles: thank you -
aurel Miles: it opens them
aurel Miles: it allows them to express
Pema Pera: yes, complementary
aurel Miles: and it takes their fear away
aurel Miles: not even just that
aurel Miles: i really believe it
Pema Pera: view
aurel Miles: and that's a First Nations rooted belief too
Pema Pera: yes, that is appreciation -- for any heartfelt viwe
aurel Miles: that you are correct - and so am i
genesis Zhangsun: to reassure them is a skillful way to communicate
aurel Miles: and it is our pleasure
aurel Miles: to share our variations
Pema Pera: sounds like PaB!

Fefonz needed an explantion of something that had been assumed. He may not have been the only one!

Fefonz Quan: can we have some words on what First NATION IS?
aurel Miles: sorry
aurel Miles: I'm Canadian
aurel Miles: partly of Mohawk descent
aurel Miles: but raised on the west coast
aurel Miles: in my country
aurel Miles: we call - indigenous people
aurel Miles: First Nations
aurel Miles: because they were the First to be in North America
Fefonz Quan: indigenious?
aurel Miles: i was raised with West Coast native traditions
aurel Miles: but my bloodline is Mohawk which is Eastern - I
aurel Miles: well
aurel Miles: 20 years ago you would have said
aurel Miles: Indians
aurel Miles: Indians
aurel Miles: then Native American became popular
Fefonz Quan: yes, the decades when people understood what others talk about ;-)
aurel Miles: sometimes we use Aboriginal to include Metis and Inuit
aurel Miles: is quite insulting
aurel Miles: but the term Indian
Fefonz Quan: WHY IS IT INSULTING?
genesis Zhangsun: well it was a product of a historical mistake
aurel Miles: yes but it also picked up a lot of racist connotations

Mid explanation, I had to interject...

Storm Nordwind does not want to disrupt such a great discussion, but begs to remind people that Stim's Ways of Knowing Workshop starts in 3 minutes at 2:00pm SLT. But please return and continue this same time next week!

Fefonz Quan: (sorry for caps lock)
aurel Miles: along the way
genesis Zhangsun: because Columbus landed in North America not India :)
aurel Miles: because for one thing -
aurel Miles: we are not all the same
aurel Miles: i don't look like a Haida womnan
aurel Miles: i am quite distinctly Mohawk in my manner and appearance
Fefonz Quan: neither the original indians - hundreds of ethnics there !
aurel Miles: althouggh usually people just assume i am "white"
aurel Miles: and that's fine too cause i am that too
aurel Miles: yup
aurel Miles: but - in Canada the Indian Act
aurel Miles: has been the cause of a lot of misery
aurel Miles: so we do try to move away from that word
aurel Miles: you know?
Pema Pera: yes
Fefonz Quan: i see
Pema Pera: words are very important
Fefonz Quan: thanks for the explanation
aurel Miles: i hope it helped
genesis Zhangsun: yes thankyou :)
aurel Miles: i am happy to go back to listening - thank you
Pema Pera: as you told me, especially within First Nation traditions

Pema Pera: we'll be off to Stim's talk now
genesis Zhangsun: yes right!
Pema Pera: thank you, Aurel !!
Storm Nordwind: You're all welcome to come along!

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aurel Miles: thanks Gen!
aurel Miles: where?
genesis Zhangsun: thanks Aurel nice meeting you
Fefonz Quan: thank you all for joining us :)
aurel Miles: thank you
aurel Miles accepted your inventory offer.
genesis Zhangsun: are we all going to Stim's talk?
Fefonz Quan: me all yes :)
Storm Nordwind nods in silence "Please join us at the kira Cafe!"