2009.04.24 19:00 - Pax et Bonum

The Guardian for this meeting wasPemaPera, who also provided the comments.  This was another theme meeting.  Geo and Pemawere the moderators, for the theme "Pax et Bonum".  Geo started off, and Pema had it easy: right after Geo's brief introduction an avalanche of questions arose, and there was no room or need for Pema to play a moderator role as a respondent to Geo.

Pila Mulligan: hi Ade
Adelene Dawner: Hi Pila, Geo :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Geo
Geo Netizen: Hi Adams
Pila Mulligan: hi Eliza and Adams
Adams Rubble: Hello Geo, Eliza, Ade and Pila :)
Geo Netizen: Hi Eliza
Adams Rubble: Hello Pema :)
Pila Mulligan: Konnichi-ha Pema san
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila, Adelene, Geo, Adams :) Hi Pema
Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
Pema Pera: Adelene, shall I post the log for this session?
Adelene Dawner: Sure, Pema, thanks :)
Pema Pera: Starting next week, I'll take over this slot, as part of a grand reshuffling :-)
Pema Pera: I'll send out a notice to the PaB group in a day or so
Pila Mulligan: hi michel
Adams Rubble: Hello Michel
michel Arun: hi
Eliza Madrigal: michel, Hello
Geo Netizen: Hi Michel
Pema Pera: Geo, shall we get started?
Geo Netizen nods
Pema Pera: And are you okay with the theme I proposed, Pax and Bonum?
Geo Netizen: Sure ... if there is interest :)
Pila Mulligan: ' Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace; where there is hatred, let me sow love'
Pema Pera is very interested!
Pila Mulligan: = interested :)
Pema Pera: I suggest you start off, Geo
Eliza Madrigal: Geo, there is :)
Pema Pera: since it is in your lineage

Geo Netizen: Ok ...
Geo Netizen: To begin
Geo Netizen: Pax et bonum is a salutation that Francis of Assisi used to greet those he met on the road.
Geo Netizen: It is a Latin phrase that roughly translates as ’peace and good’.
Geo Netizen: Instead of trying to provide a formal definition of what is meant by the word peace in this greeting, permit me to provide some examples from another famous source.
Geo Netizen: The wise find peace on hearing the truth, like a deep, clear, undisturbed lake.
Geo Netizen: Better than a thousand pointless words is one saying to the point on hearing which one finds peace.
Geo Netizen: A victor only breeds hatred, while a defeated man lives in misery, but a man at peace within lives happily, abandoning ideas of victory and defeat.
Geo Netizen: Peaceful of body, peaceful of speech and with mind thoroughly stilled, the one who has rid themselves of attachment to the world is called "at peace".
Geo Netizen: To act with a peaceful mind, is to draw happiness after oneself.
Geo Netizen: I hope that these wonderful examples provide some sense of the peace being wished upon you.
Geo Netizen: Yet this greeting of peace is as much for the greeter as the one greeted for Francis said:
Pila Mulligan: hi Threedee
Geo Netizen: ’As you announce peace with your mouth, make sure that you have greater peace in your hearts.’
Geo Netizen bows to Threedee
Adelene Dawner: Hiya, Luv :)
Pema Pera: hi Three!
Threedee Shepherd: Hi folks
Adams Rubble: hello Threedee
Geo Netizen: Notice that Francis calls us to greater peace and goes on to say:
Geo Netizen: ’May everyone be drawn to peace, kindness, and harmony through your gentleness.’
Geo Netizen: The second part of the greeting -and good- reminds us of the source of all good.
Geo Netizen: It is a wish for good things:
Geo Netizen: that you experience the joy of a baby’s giggle,
Geo Netizen: the beauty of a vibrant landscape,
Geo Netizen: the warmth of a caring touch,
Geo Netizen: the delights of breaking bread with friends.
Geo Netizen: But more than just good things,
Geo Netizen: good means a state of well-being,
Geo Netizen: circling back to the beginning …
Geo Netizen: a deep, clear, undisturbed lake.
Geo Netizen: Pax et bonum !
Geo Netizen: -------------------
Pila Mulligan: and to you Geo
Geo Netizen bows
Geo Netizen: I hope this gives a sense of the breath of the greeting
Geo Netizen sits quietly and feels the beauty

Threedee Shepherd: This leads to something I wanted to pose, this evening. the words "a man at peace within lives happily' lesd mr to ask "What is happiness?"
Pema Pera bows to Geo of SL and to Francis of Assisi
Pila Mulligan: the Prayer of Saint Francis begins with a memorable invocation of the search for of peace ('Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace, where there is hatred, let me sow love ...')
Geo Netizen: Yes, though that was actually writing in the 1800’s it certainly captures the spirit of Francis
Geo Netizen: I am open to question both on the greeting and any other topic that is of interest
Pema Pera: What you said in "[19:10] Geo Netizen: ’As you announce peace with your mouth, make sure that you have greater peace in your hearts.’" reminds me of the Buddhist notion of Boddhicitta
Threedee Shepherd: I expand my question by noting that the "meaning" of what is a peaceful society is VERY different when different traditions are examined.
Geo Netizen nods
Geo Netizen: Yes ... very much so :)
Pema Pera: the wish to attain complete enlightenment (that is, Buddhahood) in order to be of benefit to all sentient beings
Pila Mulligan: Threedee, earlier Geo said 'wise find peace on hearing the truth' so perhaps happiness is a feeling associated with awreness of truth
Geo Netizen: It is a good example of what I talked about before of significant overlap
Threedee Shepherd: and if peace and happiness are related, I can ask, what is peace? and What is Happiness?
Pema Pera: or the instructions in airplanes: after dropping away of aircabine pressure, first put the oxygen mask on your own face, before trying to help others
Threedee Shepherd: Pila, whose truth?
Pila Mulligan: Stim has been doing a Thursday session on ethics, and his approach began with the idea that you need to be honest with yourself
Pila Mulligan: honesty at the simple level, as opposed to abstractions of 'truth'
Pila Mulligan: a visitor to the group expressed his opinion that truth was a waste of time in the real world
Geo Netizen: to strip away the shells and discover the core being
Pila Mulligan: I would disagree witht the visitor and agree with Stim
Threedee Shepherd: I was discussing this at dinner with my wife and really am unsure aboutr defining happiness, peach, truth and honesty. As an extreme example, I would not want to live in a society governed by the Taliban's notions of these terms.
Threedee Shepherd: peace
Adams Rubble: good night all and thank you Geo :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Adams
Pema Pera: bye Adams!
Threedee Shepherd: bye
Pila Mulligan: yes, that extreme illlustrates a less than excellent form of peace, Threedee
Geo Netizen: The Taliban are not in touch the with depth of the sufi tradition
Pila Mulligan: I think St. Francis was working with less dogmatic terms
Threedee Shepherd: Geo, independent of who or what then are in touch with, how do we "judge" their version of peace in comparision with any other version?

Geo Netizen: But Francis did believe in certain truths ... God is love
Geo Netizen: I would repeat a quote above:
Geo Netizen: A victor only breeds hatred, while a defeated man lives in misery, but a man at peace within lives happily, abandoning ideas of victory and defeat.
Pema Pera: that's a beautiful sentence, and very Taoist
Geo Netizen: This is fundamental to basic Muslim, Buddhist, and Christian traditions
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, but look closely and the key terms get defined differently.
Pema Pera: Hi Gina!
Pema Pera: Come join us
Geo Netizen: To the extent that one deviates from this one deviates from their foundations
gina Broono: Hi all
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, thought that also...and the line that " Geo Netizen: Better than a thousand pointless words is one saying to the point on hearing which one finds peace" made me think of a Compassion teachibng I'd listen to this week that was basically "Two parts compassion to one part words"...that a conscious/loving word or deed weighs more in a sense
Eliza Madrigal: Hi gina
Geo Netizen bows to Gina
Geo Netizen nods to Eliza
Threedee Shepherd: Folks, I need to ask a personal question?
Eliza Madrigal: One can work at something for a long time, but if not imbued with that "clear lake" peace/silence...is only a little worthwhile :)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh..sorry three, sure
Geo Netizen listens

Threedee Shepherd: I am sincerely interested in exploring the terms of this conversation--such as peace and happiness. The questions I am asking are an attempt to see if there is interest in going in that direction of exploration. However, I seem not to be successful. Is there some way I could be more effective in posing such questions to this group.
Geo Netizen: Is there anything in what is referred to as RL that has reality beyond the confines of RL?
Threedee Shepherd: I do not know.
Geo Netizen: If not .... then I can see difficulty in doing what you suggest.
Pila Mulligan: hi SL4
SL4observer Lane: hi everyone :)
Threedee Shepherd: Hi
Pema Pera: Hi SL4
Geo Netizen: I would posit Being as having such a reality
Threedee Shepherd: Geo, I am not sure I understand the point you are making
Pila Mulligan: Threedee, how would oyu define success in your effort to explore peace and happiness?
Eliza Madrigal: Three, in not directly addressing the taliban, I wasn't 'not seeing' your question...was looking to Geo's text for St. Francis ideas on the nature of peace
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: So it seems related, no?
Threedee Shepherd: That the group would take up the questions in some direct way. Alternatively, I would hope those who thought that to do so if not appropriate now might say something like, "Yes, that is interesting but not where we are now. Perhaps later or another time."
Pema Pera: perhaps it is a matter of wavelength
Pila Mulligan: to me peace is peace and ahppiness is happiness :)
Pema Pera: Geo is quoting poetic sentences to convey a sense of something
Pila Mulligan: defining the words makes them no different than what they are
Pema Pera: and inviting us to swim with the flow of that poetic sense
Pema Pera: he is holding up an apple for us to bite in
Pema Pera: and if we ask about oranges and apples and their differences, before biting, that goes in a different direction
Pila Mulligan: elaborating on what those feelings are like may be an endless play of thoughts, and poetry certainly is part of that play
Threedee Shepherd: OK, that sounds like I was not on the same wavelength as the conversation, yes.
Pila Mulligan: do you have a definiiotn of peace or happiness Threedee?
Pema Pera: but the question of happiness in itself is a great one, for sure
Threedee Shepherd: So, I will not insist on wavelength change ^.^ I must note however, that if Shalom and Salaam meant the same thing the Middle East would be a very different place.
Pema Pera: and Geo was answering you more than you may have realized
Pila Mulligan: isn't it possible they do mean the same thing and the fighting is over something else?
Pema Pera: so the question is, how to put on our own oxygen masks before helping others
Pema Pera: how to find peace ourselves before checking out the Taliban
Eliza Madrigal: In that case it is about believing that outer control can accomplish inner peace
Threedee Shepherd: I have a personal definition of happiness in personal operational terms. It is not deep enough for me to relate happiness to Being in an overarching way.
Pila Mulligan: but the question of how to bring peace to the world is one of the most important questions there is
Pema Pera: how about looking for the kind of happiness that comes automatically when you start to transcend dichotomies?
Pema Pera: like victory and defeat
Pema Pera: as Geo indicated
Pema Pera: that goes to the heart of Being
Threedee Shepherd: I am not saying ther is no relationship in such a broad way. Indeed, that is what I was trying to explore.
Pema Pera: can you think of an example in your own life?
Pema Pera: that may provide the bridge between the two approaches

Geo Netizen: Can anyone bring peace to the world?
Geo Netizen: But I might bring peace to you
Pila Mulligan: the greatest challenge of peace is the task of ending violence
Pila Mulligan: in a community sense
Geo Netizen nods
Threedee Shepherd: and it has never been broadly achieved in known human history
Geo Netizen nods again at Threedee
Eliza Madrigal: Exactly, and therefore what it seems is that it cannot be "done" in the way that people "try" to "do" it....
Pila Mulligan: Gandhi once said, “I believe in war bereft of every trace of violence”
gina Broono: what about war as population control
Threedee Shepherd: I agree Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: That the contemplative,prayerful cultivation is necessary in a larger way
Pila Mulligan: there are easier emthods
Eliza Madrigal: Changes happen in leaps...and efforts to force peace...where do they go?
Geo Netizen: -Force- peace !
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Geo Netizen: That’s a contradiction
Eliza Madrigal: yes, my point
Geo Netizen nods
Eliza Madrigal: That I hear St. Francis speaking of a peace which can't be 'thought up'
Eliza Madrigal: ?

Geo Netizen: I only have a say in the peace that dwells in me and
Geo Netizen: as Francis said
Geo Netizen: ’May everyone be drawn to peace, kindness, and harmony through your gentleness.’
Pila Mulligan: I'd return to the idea that peace needs truth, rather than force -- the problem with Shalom vs. Salaam situation is not defining peace but defining boundaries
Geo Netizen: I preach peace and everyone once in a great while I use words
Geo Netizen: Peace needs love
Eliza Madrigal: : ) great "peace leaders" have done the same it seems.
Geo Netizen: How do I know I love … I care deeply about what happens to the person … then I know I love
Pema Pera: knowing stems from seeing more than from defining . . . . though the latter can help after the fact, to clarify and share
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Steven
Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: Hello
Pema Pera: Hi Steve!
Geo Netizen: Hi Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: Hi gina
Threedee Shepherd: hey, Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: waves to all
Eliza Madrigal: It seems strange that I'm so unfamiliar with St. Francis....only quotes which seem abundant.
Eliza Madrigal: I've read a bit of St. John of the Cross, who has a definite emphasis on persoal illumination also
Geo Netizen: Peace is a state of being … one can only understand it through the experience.
Geo Netizen: We describe the experience … we do not define an experience.
Geo Netizen: And another either can relate to our experience or not
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: but more detailed descriptions can help to increase potential for relating
Pema Pera: as long as they further the experience
Geo Netizen nods
Threedee Shepherd: Geo, I do not disagree. And, in this particular forum of keyboards at PaB in SL, it is hard to know without using words.
Pema Pera: perhaps the key is orientation: walking along with the speaker on a stroll through the garden of his/her mind as opposed to a more confrontational and/or skeptical stance (I'm saying this in a general and stark way, Three, not that you are doing that, but as a general answer to the question of communication your raised)
Geo Netizen: Threedee, I personally sense a solidity to your position but am unable to touch it … that is a failure on my part I wish I could correct.

Threedee Shepherd: Geo, we should meet and explore that another time.
Threedee Shepherd: I would like to
Geo Netizen nods
Pema Pera: another theme session :) -- wanna pick a date?
Pema Pera: I'd love to hear that conversation!
Pema Pera: we'll all learn from that
Pila Mulligan: if you follow the idea of well-being far enough, you should arrive in some proximate location :)
Threedee Shepherd: Pema, I understand what you say. I may sound harsh at times because I take conversations here in the context of what the same and other persons have said before in other sessions. Thus, the formalities that take edges off my questions are sometimes lacking.
Eliza Madrigal: :) having a loving view means that one wants to apply things in a practical way... makes sense Three.
Pema Pera: it's a very interesting and important question, Three, and greatly admire your willingness to discuss it
Pila Mulligan: humble monk v. cranky old guy -- 10 rounds at PaB -- in search of peace and happiness :) be there
Pema Pera: I also enjoy your sense of urgency of really wanting to know where to go, how to see, what to do
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
Geo Netizen chuckles
Pema Pera: Pila, are you going to debate with Geo then ? :-)
Eliza Madrigal: hahha
Pila Mulligan: ouch
Pila Mulligan: got me sensei
Pema Pera: :)
Pila Mulligan: we could do tag teams
Pema Pera: actually, I could play that role just fine . . . .
Pema Pera: my only excuse is that I've done it so often already
Pema Pera: seroiusly, Geo, when will yo be available next time?
Geo Netizen: would definitely want back up :))
Pema Pera: What I meant is that I greatly appreciate Three's courage to ask out loud the kind of question that many of us often must have
Pema Pera: "why are they not responding to what I just said, a few times?"
Pema Pera: and I would love to honor that question
Eliza Madrigal nods
Pema Pera: as best we can
gina Broono: we are meditating

Pema Pera: Geo, first day and time!
Pema Pera: We can't back you up if we can't find you
Geo Netizen is actually waiting for Outlook to come up :)
Pema Pera: picking a day and time is GOOD :-)
Pema Pera: okay, thank you !
Pema Pera ponders a philosophy of waiting for outlook to come up . . . . .
Geo Netizen: I can do a 1900 next week -after- Monday
Threedee Shepherd: Well, I am GoC on Monday at 7 PM Linden Time...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pila Mulligan: hmm, after Monday ....
Threedee Shepherd: cross typing ;)
Pila Mulligan: maybe this time next Friday, it's May Day
Pema Pera: How about Tuesday?
Pema Pera: that will be Eos's new slot
Geo Netizen: Friday would be good
Pila Mulligan: ahh, he'd be agood referee too
Threedee Shepherd: Tuesday works for me at 1900 hours LT
Pema Pera: Friday will be my slot
Threedee Shepherd: or Friday
Pema Pera: either way is fine with me
Geo Netizen: Tuesday ok too
Pema Pera: hahaha
Pila Mulligan: coin flip
Pema Pera: someone make a decision!
Threedee Shepherd: OK, Friday, which we will give me time to ponder
Pema Pera: okay!
Geo Netizen nods
Pema Pera: Friday it will be
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Geo, everyone :) Night
Pema Pera: Threedee, would you like to announce it to the group, or shall I do it?
Threedee Shepherd: night, Eliza
Pila Mulligan: bye ELiuza
Pema Pera: night, Eliza!
Geo Netizen: I hope we have a formal -question- to address :)
Geo Netizen: Bye Eliza
Pila Mulligan: i suggest that Geo and Threedee discuss the topic and mehtod before then and make the announcment together
Pema Pera: "how to communicate heart-felt believes that are rooted in experience"?
Pema Pera: is that formal enough?
Pila Mulligan: I'd say let them discuss it first, Pema san
Pema Pera: yes, I second Pila
Pema Pera: *if* they do it BEFORE Friday :-)
Pila Mulligan: oh, yes, timing is everythiing :)
Pema Pera: Pila-san, I typed while you were typing :-)
Geo Netizen: 3D has an outline of the question already I think
Geo Netizen: It just needs to be formalized
Pila Mulligan: formalizing next
Threedee Shepherd: [20:18] Pema Pera: "how to communicate heart-felt believes that are rooted in experience"? sounds like a good starting place to me
Pema Pera: *if* Geo and Threedee promise to send something out well before Friday, they should be free to do so
Pema Pera: if not, someone else should do it -- very simple :-)
gina Broono: communicate with honest open dialogue
Threedee Shepherd: witgh peace and happiness as concrete examples (assuming concrete is a relevant word :)
Pila Mulligan: they seem to be negotiating it now, perhaps ?
gina Broono: touch and words
gina Broono: be honest; don't be hypocritical
gina Broono: that is my opinion
Threedee Shepherd: Noi we are not negotiating. If I prepare in that way, I will lose too much new thought opportunity.
Pila Mulligan: yep, honesty is essential
Pema Pera: so who will announce?
Threedee Shepherd: In part I think we are discussing if/how experience can become useful words.

Geo Netizen: perhaps: How can the experiential be formally communicate to another using the experience of peace and happiness as examples
Threedee Shepherd: Sounds good, Geo
Pema Pera: very nice, yes
gina Broono: communicate peace by setting n example
gina Broono: be peace
Pema Pera: yes
Geo Netizen sighs wondering how he gets talked into these things
Pema Pera: hahaha
Pema Pera: you're just too GOOD
Pila Mulligan: by being peaceful perhaps
Pema Pera: that too
Pema Pera: so who will announce?
Geo Netizen: Pema
Pila Mulligan: ESPN?
Geo Netizen chuckles
gina Broono: what needs to be announced?
Pema Pera sighs and is willing to do so, if none of the main players want to do so :-)
Pema Pera: Gina, this is for an email group that we are members of
stevenaia Michinaga: Pila seems to fram it the best (at least from a PR standpoint)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pema Pera: Pema is happy to step aside if Pila would like to announce!
Pila Mulligan: no no
Pila Mulligan: please
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pila Mulligan: its yours
Threedee Shepherd: OOPS, WAIT
Pema Pera: well, first things first: time for lunch
Pema Pera: yes, Three?
Threedee Shepherd: I was just informed I will not be homw next Friday night!
Pema Pera: so Tuesday it will be!
Pema Pera: right?
Threedee Shepherd: OK, tuesday I KNOW I will be home
Geo Netizen: K ... Tuesday
stevenaia Michinaga: [20:10] Pila Mulligan: humble monk v. cranky old guy -- 10 rounds at PaB -- in search of peace and happiness :) be there
Geo Netizen chuckles
Pila Mulligan: have a nice afternoon, Pema-san
Pema Pera: Tuesday, 7 pm SLT, Geo & Threedee: How can the experiential be formally communicated to another using the experience of peace and happiness as examples
Pema Pera: be well everybody, and good and peaceful :-)
gina Broono: good day
Geo Netizen: Pax et bonum :))
Pema Pera: thanks a lot, Geo !!!!
Pila Mulligan: malu & pono
Pema Pera: vrede & goed

Geo Netizen smiles
Threedee Shepherd: Actually, Pila, I may seem cranky, yet I have never been happier in my life!
Geo Netizen thinks it works in all languages
Pila Mulligan: well, I'm happy to hear it, Threedee
Pila Mulligan: thank you Geo
Geo Netizen: Goodnight / Goodday everyone
stevenaia Michinaga: see you soon
Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
Pila Mulligan: you don't seem cranky to me Threedee, Pila was playing -- hopefully not unkindly
Threedee Shepherd: ^.^
Pila Mulligan: some of the 4-a-day PaB sessions here have themes, gina -- Pema likes to send out annoouncements when they do
gina Broono: Hi Pila
gina Broono: announcements are good
Pila Mulligan: the next one I think is sunday at 1 pm when Maxine contniues the dreaming theme
gina Broono: part of communication
Pila Mulligan: this Sunday
Pila Mulligan: yep
Threedee Shepherd: Pila, I recognize a difference between "being set in may ways" vs. "being set in the WAY"
Pila Mulligan: well, Threedee, I also appreciate the rigor of defining terms
Pila Mulligan: it's just that at times the flow of words here drifts above my capacity, and overflows out of my brain onto the table
Pila Mulligan: and then someone has to clean it up
Threedee Shepherd: Squee, the answer is DEFINITELY yes.
Pila Mulligan: hi wino
wino Socke: hi you ok
Pila Mulligan: have you been here before?
Threedee Shepherd: Well friends, I will be off. Next Time :)
Pila Mulligan: thanks Threedee -- see you next time
gina Broono: I've been here twice before
gina Broono: a little sanity from RL in SL
Pila Mulligan: yes, gina, I remember seeing you before -- I was aksing wino :)
gina Broono: oh sorry
Pila Mulligan: :)
gina Broono: i invited him
Pila Mulligan: no problem
Pila Mulligan: ok
gina Broono: he is a special friend of mine
Pila Mulligan: I gave him a note card
Pila Mulligan: they like to point out how the sessiosn are rcorded and chat logs ar epostedon the web
wino Socke: thank you
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: http://playasbeing.wik.is/ has more information and the chat logs
Pila Mulligan: well, it is dinner time here, so I will be going -- see you next time SL4, gina and wino
gina Broono: good night