2009.04.06 19:00 - The End

The Guardian for this meeting was Threedee Shepherd. The comments are by Threedee Shepherd.

  A few of us "hung out" together. To protect the innocent reader most ot the bad puns )oxymoron) and basketball game chat are deleted and only a tiny bit of serious conversation about THE END, that managed to slip in, is preserved.

Threedee Shepherd: Good Evening :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Good evening, Three.
Threedee Shepherd: Ahh, Pila, I thought we might see you ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Pila! a delight to see you.
Pila Mulligan: hi Threedee and Corvi
Pila Mulligan: how are we?
Threedee Shepherd: Any good topic for tonight?
Threedee Shepherd: Well we could discuss "are" but we have been there many times
Pila Mulligan: how about 'was'?
Threedee Shepherd: Hiya Steve, we were expecting you :)
stevenaia Michinaga: not the pirate "Are"
Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
Threedee Shepherd: no the is, are
Pila Mulligan: or the is was
Corvuscorva Nightfire buries my face in my hands.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ARrrrr
stevenaia Michinaga: grins
Pila Mulligan: Steve is there anything partciularly menaingful to you about your last name?
stevenaia Michinaga: belive it's luckyman in german?
Pila Mulligan: ah, so no alliteration with Michigan?
stevenaia Michinaga: oh, SL last name
stevenaia Michinaga: ooops
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: Pema once said it was meaningful in japanese, but I don;t remember
stevenaia Michinaga: I was looking and this was the closest I could find to something yiddish.... Mashugina
Pila Mulligan: :)

A newbie (one of two, appears)

cosmic Ghost: hi
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Pila Mulligan: hi
Threedee Shepherd: We are a discussion group whose members meet regularly to discuss reality, non-reality, meta-reality and anything related ^.^
cosmic Ghost: ok

The newbie left quickly--saving himself a fate of endless discussions. did I say that?

Threedee Shepherd: So, do we have a topic to discuss or are we just dribbling around?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: reincarnation
Threedee Shepherd: reincarnation, is that when they melt down the steel of old cars and make it inot new cars?
Pila Mulligan: 55-34 at halftime :)
Threedee Shepherd: *into
Pila Mulligan: that's recylcing 3D
stevenaia Michinaga: night be the equvalent to humans
Threedee Shepherd: I though that was coming home on a bicycle
stevenaia Michinaga: might
Pila Mulligan: 3D tends to punce upon ideas
Pila Mulligan: lion-like
Threedee Shepherd: Well steve, the humans thing is not that far off. Every breath you take contains at least on molecule that Aristotle breathed.
stevenaia Michinaga: and I;m sure we are all related to him too
Pila Mulligan: logical
stevenaia Michinaga: and the water molecules we drink, so there is much of the past in all of us, along with whatever they carry with them
Threedee Shepherd: and clearly, by inference, much of the future
Pila Mulligan: I recently read our whole physical, personal organism replaces its structre every 7 years or so (gradually)
Threedee Shepherd: approximately true Pila, I affirm as a biologist
Pila Mulligan: so it must trasnsfer memories as well
stevenaia Michinaga: lands on the ground, grows in plants eaten by others
Threedee Shepherd: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_theseus
Pila Mulligan: most reincarnation theories boil down to a form of memory transfer
Threedee Shepherd: There were not enough previously alive humans in all of time, to be able to reincarnate the currently alive ones. so, some of us were noon-human and I don't know how memory fits there.
Pila Mulligan: oh, it is easy Threedee
Pila Mulligan: didn't you notice the similan components of Bush's policies?
Pila Mulligan: simian*
Threedee Shepherd: maybe souls are split and shared?
Pila Mulligan: well, the Hindu theory was that all souls can, and often do, go thoruogh all species
stevenaia Michinaga: spilt souls?
Pila Mulligan: but not split
Pila Mulligan: recombination is not part of it :)
Threedee Shepherd: So here is a game to play: What dead person would you like to have been reincarnated as the current you?
Pila Mulligan: me :)
Pila Mulligan: the was-ness of me :)
Pila Mulligan: but that is not the game answer :)
Pila Mulligan: Shakespeare?
Pila Mulligan: that's my first thought
stevenaia Michinaga: Palladio, a nice italian architect

another newbie appears--it too stayed only briefly.

Pila Mulligan: Robbot, how are you?
Robbot Sabretooth: im fine how areyou?
Pila Mulligan: fine thanks
Pila Mulligan: I meant to refer to Lousi Kahn here the other night and accidentally said Herman Kahn -- big difference :)
Threedee Shepherd smiles at Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: don't knwo herman
Pila Mulligan: but you must e aware of Louis
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, a nice philly boy
Pila Mulligan: and his ideas of more nautrally lighted spaces, as I recall

stevenaia Michinaga: have you been here before Robbort?
Robbot Sabretooth: no but, i've been to some other spots like it
stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio..._in_a_Nutshell
stevenaia Michinaga: here is a link to our wiki site
Threedee Shepherd: Robbot, here is a game for you. We meet daily as a discussion group. If you listen for 15 minutes and can then tell us our core topic, you wina a prize.
Pila Mulligan: :) 3D is joking, bythe way
Threedee Shepherd: no fair reading the Wiki first
stevenaia Michinaga: lol

Threedee Shepherd: Herman Kahn (February 15, 1922 – July 7, 1983) was one of the preeminent futurists of the latter third of the twentieth century. In the early 1970s he predicted the rise of Japan as a major world power. He was a founder of the think tank The Hudson Institute and originally came to prominence as a military strategist and systems theorist while employed at RAND Corporation, USA. He was known for analyzing the likely consequences of nuclear war and recommending ways to improve survivability. His theories contributed to the development of the nuclear strategy of the United States.

Pila Mulligan: yep, not to be conused with Louis -- but I did :)

stevenaia Michinaga: always impressed with where random thoughts take us, or a simple play on words, Three

Threedee Shepherd: what will be the purpose still left, when everything is known?
stevenaia Michinaga: purpose of what
Threedee Shepherd: THE point of it all
stevenaia Michinaga: some don't care that everything is or isn't known and are still moving through life
stevenaia Michinaga: is the only purpose to know?
stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps for some... hands three the gun
Pila Mulligan: or to think we know :)
Threedee Shepherd: OK. I'll frame it differently. What would you do starting now, if you knew no more humans would ever be born?
Pila Mulligan: not invest in diapers
Threedee Shepherd: practical thinking, Pila
stevenaia Michinaga: or the sun would blow up....
stevenaia Michinaga: soon
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
stevenaia Michinaga: would "doing" matter anymore
Pila Mulligan: ever heard of eschatology?
Threedee Shepherd: is that when snails talk to each other
Pila Mulligan: that's escargotology
Threedee Shepherd: oh, sorry
Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschatology
Pila Mulligan: one of the most salient terms in theology, if you ask Pila
Threedee Shepherd: yes, I have heard of it, but it is one of those jargon words that I wish never existed, so I could know what people were talking about. Or perhaps I can pose the Metaphysical Ontology of Eschatology?
Pila Mulligan: "a part of theology and philosophy concerned with what is believed to be the final events in the history of the world, or the ultimate destiny of humanity, commonly referred to as the end of the world. "
Threedee Shepherd: I thought the end of the world was somewhere in Northern Michigan
Pila Mulligan: it is a nice fit in theology as philsophy/psychology however 3d, one you may come to appreciate :)
Threedee Shepherd: well if it was "escargochatology" it would be very slow in coming.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: your question was very eschatological
Pila Mulligan: it is the most common form of theological question
Pila Mulligan: but think about it for a second -- what doe sit imply psychologically?
Threedee Shepherd: Though the answer of the people at Jonestown seems a bit extreme.
Pila Mulligan: yes, but they were loco
stevenaia Michinaga: mass insanity?
Pila Mulligan: yep
stevenaia Michinaga: if the end was that near, why not wait
Threedee Shepherd: perhaps "in loco parentis" with Jones as the parent
Pila Mulligan: every religion seems to start with the end
Pila Mulligan: and god flows from that point into the world/church paradigm
Pila Mulligan: but the end is always the end of everything
Pila Mulligan: armageddon or whatever
Pila Mulligan: and what is the next closest psychological construct to the end of the world?
Threedee Shepherd: actually, Joseph Cambell (who I am now reading) has it starting at the beginning with a snake and a tree in damn near every creation myth.
Pila Mulligan: yep, them too
Pila Mulligan: I love Campbell's works also
Threedee Shepherd: death
Pila Mulligan: yes, exactly 3d
Pila Mulligan: so they take the end of the world as an avenue to tickle perosnal death thoughts
Threedee Shepherd: You are born. you breath, you stop breathing, You die. what's so hard to undersatnd about that.
Pila Mulligan: it is so much easier if everyone does it [religion] at the same time :) You feel less alone. One of the princiapl confusions in theology, if you ask me. and manipulated that way too
Threedee Shepherd: death is a supremely subjective experience that cannot be shared. Everyone dies alone.
Pila Mulligan: yep --as I like to say, you are born naked and you die alone
Threedee Shepherd: and in between you piss, shit and fuck around
Pila Mulligan: so dress up and party
stevenaia Michinaga: hard to fit morality and ethics in between isn't it
Threedee Shepherd: would seem that way at first glance, Steve
Pila Mulligan: well dress up and party really isnt it :)
Threedee Shepherd: No, because someone has to pay the piper.
Threedee Shepherd: And food doesn't grow on trees; it comes from Supermarkets
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: ethics was was learned prehistorically and became morailty through strucutre
stevenaia Michinaga: yes but the time span between birth and death is relative, a week, a century, they can both be a lifetime, just different number of poops
Pila Mulligan: the idea about ethics predating history was in a NYT article last year
Pila Mulligan: when Grog had an intuition to refrain from killing off Gork, he observed that the reuslts were favorable to his family
Threedee Shepherd: In a recent book, the Philosopher Owen Flanagan postulates that particular ethical concepts were "naturally selected" for, as brain hardwiring, because they allowed social primate groups (humans mostly) to survive better.
Pila Mulligan: yep Grog and Gork
Threedee Shepherd: Those who did not have such "wiring" were at a selective disadvantage
Pila Mulligan: yep ,they kept kiling each other
Pila Mulligan: reducing their numbers, increasnig their stress
Threedee Shepherd: something like that
Pila Mulligan: so with all respect to stone tablets, ethics came with the property
Pila Mulligan: thou shalt not kill, because Grok's cousins will get you for it
Pila Mulligan: an lo and behold, it worked :)
Threedee Shepherd: and in large parts of Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, the Baltics, etc., they still do
Pila Mulligan: they are slow learners
Pila Mulligan: as are the rest of the world's violent people
stevenaia Michinaga: yes that's where these basic tenents of law came from
stevenaia Michinaga: Babylon
Pila Mulligan: we are still struggling to incorporate the most primitive lessons into our civilization
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
stevenaia Michinaga: looks at the death penalty
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: is that progress
Pila Mulligan: pay toilets
Pila Mulligan: talk about cruel ands unusual
stevenaia Michinaga: can you spare a dime?
Pila Mulligan: so the question may be not what will happen when we die but what will happen when we can see the value of what we have alreayd learned

irrelevant discussion of pay toilets on airplanes deleted here

Threedee Shepherd: Plia, you asked: Pila Mulligan: so the question may be not what will happen when we die but whatywill happen when we can see the value of what we have alreayd learned
Pila Mulligan: ... yes
Threedee Shepherd: I think that this life is a test beta-version. Had it been a real life, it would have come with instructions
Pila Mulligan: but it did 3d -- that was what Grok got
stevenaia Michinaga: dose that relate to Three's what happens when all is known? (or something like that)
Pila Mulligan: you were expecting a mnaual?
Pila Mulligan: yep, Steve
Pila Mulligan: Gandhi said the first problem in the world is violence
Pila Mulligan: it has always been the first problem
Threedee Shepherd: well, even a small cheat-sheet would have helped
Pila Mulligan: it is a no-brainer
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: we humans still act as violently or moreso than any animal that ever lived
Threedee Shepherd: Actually, all we needed was two commandments: Be Good. Play Nice.
Pila Mulligan: I'd do it :)
stevenaia Michinaga: tablets wold have gotten to heavy
Threedee Shepherd: why, 2 is shorter than 10
stevenaia Michinaga: awww, thought you mean two more
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
stevenaia Michinaga: would love to see 5000 years of interperative commentary
Threedee Shepherd: no, only two. And, any time you had to ask for a definition prior to acting, you already know you shouldn't do it. (Gee ref, does play nice mean I can't climb over his back to get the ball??)
Pila Mulligan: I was thinknig the same thought Steve, can yousee all the tomes on 'play nice'
Pila Mulligan: what is the true meaning of nice
Threedee Shepherd: Nice = Do unto others as they would have done to them.
stevenaia Michinaga: I am still thinking of the question of the "end"
stevenaia Michinaga: seems it's no different no matter how far away then end is
Threedee Shepherd: If I knew it was next week, I probably would not send in the last payment of my State income taxes
Pila Mulligan: true
Pila Mulligan: the end of the world is a more vigorous concept than almost any other aspect of theology
stevenaia Michinaga: or worst, you send it in, THEN the world ends, so you really didn't have to
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: I'm getting a refund, so I hope it wait suntil then
Pila Mulligan: but the end of the world is, as i said earlier, very much like something an insurance saleman relies on
Pila Mulligan: a motivator
Pila Mulligan: come pray and rise up to heaven with us n judgment day
stevenaia Michinaga: motivation to what?
Pila Mulligan: or pay your premium, very similar
stevenaia Michinaga: awww, right
Threedee Shepherd: If everything you need and want and can know is in heaven, sounds pretty boring to me.
Pila Mulligan: heaven is a 96 hole golf course
Pila Mulligan: for eternity
Threedee Shepherd: if so, hell might be more interesting
stevenaia Michinaga: until your score is 96
Threedee Shepherd: what if there IS no end?
stevenaia Michinaga: or no clock to end the game?
stevenaia Michinaga: no clock
Pila Mulligan: probably there isn't -- in terms relevant to human existence

Threedee goes off on a tangent for no good reason, leading to numerous other bad jokes which I will dignify by calling it "PLAY"

Threedee Shepherd: So this kid comes home from Sunday School and proudly says, I know what God's real name is.
Threedee Shepherd: Really says his mother, what is it?
Threedee Shepherd: Arthur, says the kid.
Threedee Shepherd: How do you know that mom asks
Threedee Shepherd: Well, they just taught us "Our Father who ART in heaven..."
Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: so this termite walks into a bar and says ....
Pila Mulligan: is the bar tender here?
stevenaia Michinaga: lol
Threedee Shepherd: hiss
Pila Mulligan: hey, puns are the lowest form of humor :)
stevenaia Michinaga: on that note..... I must go
stevenaia Michinaga: always a pleasure
Pila Mulligan: bye Steve

Threedee Shepherd: An infinite number of mathematicians walk into a bar. the first asks for a beer, the second asks for half a glass, the third for a quarter...the bartender say, you guys are crazy and pours two beers
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: Zeno Specials
Threedee Shepherd: Nice, Pila

Threedee Shepherd: Descartes was in the street and was almost run over by a runaway wagon. and the moral of the story is:
Pila Mulligan: waiting for the moral
Threedee Shepherd: the moral is Never put Decartes before the horse.
Pila Mulligan: ouch

Threedee Shepherd: OK, enough is enough for one night, I'm off. C'ya
Pila Mulligan: bye Threedee