2009.04.05 19:00 - Open Sim and PaB-RL

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    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.


    The first half of the meeting (first hour)  we learned about Open Sim and how it may relate to the further of PaB from Threedee Shephard , the second half, (second hour) after everyone left Pila and I discussed the upcoming meeting on Wednesday 1:00 SLT and the discussion on the PaB - Real Life facility and discussion.

    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Three
    Threedee Shepherd: hi, again
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice place you had there
    Threedee Shepherd: ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: you guys keeping busy with projects?
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pila
    Pila Mulligan: hi steve and Threedee
    Threedee Shepherd: I hope so :> So far so good.
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pila. We do need an "additional" next client, but not immediately. Also, we are hoping to get OpenSim work once we have demos to display.
    Pila Mulligan: Threedee there may be some discontinuity here
    Threedee Shepherd: ??
    stevenaia Michinaga: we were just talking about ThreeDee's inworld projects
    Pila Mulligan: I'm not sure what oy just said Threedee :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: before you joined us
    Pila Mulligan: would I be a client?
    Threedee Shepherd: [19:04] stevenaia Michinaga: you guys keeping busy with projects? [19:04] Threedee Shepherd: I hope so :> So far so good. [19:04] stevenaia Michinaga: nice [19:05] Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pila. We do need an "additional" next client, but not immediately. Also, we are hoping to get OpenSim work once we have demos to display.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, I just am not sure what a client and Opensim are, or refer to :)
    Threedee Shepherd: No Pila, I am not suggesting you would be a client.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: I'd be happy to :)
    Pila Mulligan: sorry to be so slow on tech stuff
    Pila Mulligan: ohhhh ... now I see
    Pila Mulligan: you were answering Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Pila Mulligan: my confusion was that I thought you were telling me something
    Pila Mulligan: pardon
    stevenaia Michinaga: a "middle of a conversation " arrival
    Pila Mulligan: so it seems
    Threedee Shepherd: A client is someone or company that hires my company 3DE, LLC to build a simulation for them in Second Life. Adelene is one of the people who works with me on such projects, for real money.
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, cool
    Pila Mulligan: she mentioned she was doing a university project in SL
    stevenaia Michinaga: you don;t work for lindens?
    Pila Mulligan: making aSL university that is
    Threedee Shepherd: OpenSim is a sort of "clone" of SL that allows anyone to serve their own SL-like universe, using Open Source software that is being developed (like Linux was).\
    Threedee Shepherd: Multi-projects, Steve.
    Pila Mulligan: that sounds very cool
    stevenaia Michinaga: Ade gave me a tour of that Miami university you were working on, very impressive
    Pila Mulligan: is OpenSim something you do now Threedee?
    Threedee Shepherd: Ade and I are building an entire Island that is going to be the Miami Dade College Virtual Campus in SL. Yes we get paid for that in US$. That is how Ade is now earning a living.
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pila Mulligan: nice
    stevenaia Michinaga: good to see someone can make a living from SL
    Threedee Shepherd: Steve, Ade and I also intend to do a project in conjunction with Kira/PaB to build a "Neuroversity" in SL that explores the diverse ways that the brains of differently-abled folks function, by showing demos.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Ade also mentioned that
    Threedee Shepherd: We are writing for a grant to do so so Ade can be paid and so Kira can also get some support.
    Pila Mulligan: the idea seems to also have the potential to inform the treatment side of that equation of the pitfalls of their vocabulary
    stevenaia Michinaga: like the heart you walk through at the Franklin institute? only the brain in it;s ways of perceiving?
    stevenaia Michinaga: through
    Threedee Shepherd: My company, 3DE, (stands for 3D Embodiment) has already put up a private 4-Sim world using OpenSim software. We are using it as a testbed right now.
    Threedee Shepherd: Something like that, Steve.
    Pila Mulligan: is it accessible from SL, Threedee? (Translates: can I see it? :)
    Threedee Shepherd: No, it is not accessible from SL. Linden is apparently NOT intending to interoperate with OpenSims, at least at this time.
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, shades of Microsoft
    Threedee Shepherd: There is still nothing significant to see on our OpenSim. It looks just like land in SL that is undeveloped.. When there is, we can invite people in via demo avatars we will set up.
    Pila Mulligan: I look forward to it :)
    Threedee Shepherd: So do I ^.^
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: grins
    Pila Mulligan: you don't need any extra server resources by any chance, do you?
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pema
    Pila Mulligan: hi Pema
    Pila Mulligan: welcome to the Second Life time zone
    Threedee Shepherd: Not now. We are using a small server farm on the East Coast that a guy is running as a small business to specifically host OpenSims. Why do you ask?
    Pila Mulligan: I
    Pema Pera: Hi Pila, Steve, Three!
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pema
    Pila Mulligan: I've had a shared server for about ten years for a few small web sites I host there
    Threedee Shepherd: Ahh.
    Pila Mulligan: the hosting company has grown in that time and recently gave a huge upgrade with a reduced price
    Pila Mulligan: I've got like 20 gb of unused disk space and 200 gb of bandwidth waiting for something
    Pila Mulligan: 200 gb/month
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Pila Mulligan: my little websites were written in note pad in the last century and are measured in kb
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pila Mulligan: so it is like whoa, lots of free space
    Threedee Shepherd: The key for us is that the guy we are using is taking care of mounting and maintaining and upgrading (often) the back-end OpenSim software
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, that's nice
    Pila Mulligan: I mentioned it to Storm, also, Pema - just in case Kira wants some room to play with
    Pila Mulligan: the whole thing costs me $10 a month
    Threedee Shepherd: I think we are filling one server machine-equivalent for our particular site of 4 SL-equivalent sims, paying $100/month total.
    Pema Pera: yes, it's an interesting possibility
    Pila Mulligan: server technology sure has taken great leaps in recent years
    Threedee Shepherd: very much so
    Pila Mulligan: so Second Life would become a spawning ground for specialized separate places it sound like, with OpenSim
    Threedee Shepherd: Pema, when 3DE gets up to speed playing with our current, private, OpenSim testbed, Ade and I will discuss possibilities that Kira/PaB may want to pursue in OpenSim.
    Pema Pera: sure, I'd be happy to talk
    Pema Pera: for anything people based, though, Sl will remain the main place for quite a while, given that that's where the people are
    Threedee Shepherd: Actually Pila, what the relevant blogs are speculating is that essentially all businesses , museums and educational institutions will move from SL to OpenSim, for these reasons.
    Threedee Shepherd: There are no Terms of Service Limitations, so adults and children could visit.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, I see both comments being complementary -- SL is where the people are and OpenSim is where they will go to find specialized stuff
    Threedee Shepherd: The owner has full control.
    Pila Mulligan: Sl as the stepping off place
    Threedee Shepherd: Very few (none?) legitimate RL companies with RL products have made money in SL.
    Pema Pera: the one thing we need is interoperability . . .
    Pila Mulligan: SL has some obvious limitations with its vast playground kind of environment
    stevenaia Michinaga: can there be links, or just a signpost.... log off and sign on here?
    Threedee Shepherd: The operations of that sort in SL are here for the functionality, more than anything else. Now that OpenSim is growing as a possibility, there are easier and cheaper and better ways to get that functionality.
    Pila Mulligan: I bet it will prove to be mutually beneficial for the SL and OpenSim to interoperate ... but that does not necessarily mean they will :) (remembering Microsoft)
    stevenaia Michinaga: welcome Bertrum
    Bertrum Quan: hi everyone
    Threedee Shepherd: Steve, the OpenSim movement actually doe not refer to the fact that it uses Open Source software. Rather, the software is being developed so that any Sim can be OPEN to avatars from any other OpenSim that wants to participate and interoperate.
    Threedee Shepherd: Many are wondering whether SL will be left in the dust.
    Pila Mulligan: hi Bert
    Threedee Shepherd: hi Bert
    Pema Pera: Hi there Bert!
    Pila Mulligan: for SL to be left in the dust there will need to be some pretty adolescent oriented open sims :)
    Threedee Shepherd: A key fact is that OpenSim software is being initially "reverse engineered" to have all of the functionality of SL, but the code is being produced in a more modern way than the SL code.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, or SL may become THE "social" Sim.
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Pila Mulligan: then people interested in more specialized stuff can migrate, to to speak
    Pila Mulligan: migrate*
    Pila Mulligan: immigrants :)
    Threedee Shepherd: A key point is how SL will make money as just a "social" Sim. Typical players do not buy whole islands.
    Threedee Shepherd: As it is, SL has (it is said) not yet made any profit on well over US$20 million in venture capital input.
    Pila Mulligan: it sounds like SL will face the same kind of growing pains that most high tech ideas have had to face
    Pila Mulligan: quick competition with sharp ideas, that is
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, and they are playing their cards so close to their chest that folks wonder if they have any cards ;>
    Pila Mulligan: this is such an interesting thing -- the intellectual property vs open source situation
    Pila Mulligan: it is the hegelian dialectic of our times
    Pila Mulligan: in the West
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, in the end it seems you can make money more easily by selling services than by selling software of the "browser" sort.
    Pila Mulligan: the intellectual property idea has suffered a lot of growth and a lot of corruption
    Pila Mulligan: copyrights have come a long way :)
    Threedee Shepherd: A realistic prediction is that within 5-10 years, every current web site that can benefit from 3D presentation will have an OpenSim "section" of its web site. AND
    Threedee Shepherd: there will be unified browsers that let you access the 2D and 3D portions seamlessly, Using an SL like avatar.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: and then holographs :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: of course
    Threedee Shepherd: Recently, IBM, Intel and Microsoft invested serious money in Opensim software development, using the Open source model.
    Pila Mulligan: well, aren't they getting smart :)
    Threedee Shepherd: They want to sell product/services
    Pila Mulligan: this situation with movie studios suing consumers is absurd
    Pila Mulligan: in my humble opinion
    Threedee Shepherd: In terms of PaB, I think that the software being developed will allow more people to "play" with "virtuality" in an easy fashion.
    Pila Mulligan: the Grateful Dead invited people to tape and share their sets
    Pila Mulligan: they did pretty well
    Pema Pera: I can see many applications, Three
    Pema Pera: but how do you think it will help PaB?
    Threedee Shepherd: What might you be thinking of, Pema
    Pema Pera: Given that we are more people oriented than building and scripting?
    Threedee Shepherd: I think that Playing at Being will allow people to exercise their imaginations in virtual worlds that are set up with many different kinds of starting "rules" or standpoints. More "What if the world was like this" kind of things.
    Pema Pera: Ah, I see, more like playing in constructing whole new worlds?
    Threedee Shepherd: I am saying that I think many interesting an unexpected "things" will emerge when people can explore "reality" with fewer constraints, and inexpensively.
    Threedee Shepherd: *and
    Pila Mulligan: I think people are still learning the possibilities and limits of sharing contemplative practices in this kind of situation (SL) -- it is both more and less than i had expected -- such as in terms of the gestalt potential
    Threedee Shepherd: agreed
    Pila Mulligan: the lack of direct contact is a serious obstacle, but there is a surprising degree of contact nonetheless
    Threedee Shepherd: Still, if you play in SL you are limited by their rules and inherent structure.
    Pila Mulligan: Linden rules?
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Pila Mulligan: would a different screen stimulus affect the interaction of contemplative discussions? there's a question
    Threedee Shepherd: When the personal computer arrived, and then when Arpanet became WWW, who would have predicted SL?
    Threedee Shepherd: Pila, Of course I don't know, but my prediction is yes.
    Pila Mulligan: Ade and I made a mandala on her board here a few days ago -- it was an interesting nonvebral experience
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    Pila Mulligan: took about an hour and was not your usual SL stuff :)
    Pema Pera: Thanks, Pila -- I hope that will go into the chat log!
    Threedee Shepherd: I note that the joint contemplative "conversation" in SL is different from olde-type chat rooms.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Here is a trivial possible example.
    Threedee Shepherd: To return to previous PaB conversations an individual needs to look up a log in the Wiki or on their own computer.
    Threedee Shepherd: Now, suppose you could teleport "temporally" and suddenly bring up for all present a previous conversation with its context, and then continue it instantly, anew.
    Pema Pera: like the "time machine" in a Mac?
    Threedee Shepherd: I'm not sure what that is Pema
    Pema Pera: well, like what you described :-) don't let me side track you
    Threedee Shepherd: np
    Threedee Shepherd: What I just described is technically possible. If an OpenSim was appropriately set up, it would not be too hard to accomplish.
    Pema Pera: Yes, I do think more and more software will be integrated in very novel ways
    Threedee Shepherd: A main problem would be finding the "hook points" to return to, but there are even ways to approach that.
    Threedee Shepherd: For starters, the community could agree on many keywords that are then cross-referenced automatically.
    Pema Pera: well, I'll sign off -- great seeing you all again!
    Threedee Shepherd: bye Pema
    Pema Pera: maybe I'll dream about future software tonight :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for joining us
    Pila Mulligan: bye pema
    stevenaia Michinaga: hope PaB will make a worthy ginny pig platform, Three
    Threedee Shepherd: so do I
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Bertrum Quan: What's your guess about the development of SL-like software for cell phones and hand held computers
    stevenaia Michinaga: I've already attended a PaB meeting here from my iPhone.. it;s a beginning
    Threedee Shepherd: It is already happening. The main issues are screen-space and bandwidth.
    stevenaia Michinaga: it was limited to chat-like text and IM's only
    Threedee Shepherd: I think bandwidth increases will continue, and alleviate that bottleneck.
    stevenaia Michinaga: no graphics
    stevenaia Michinaga: that and graphics processing of the hardware
    Threedee Shepherd: The scree space issue will be addressed by flexible screens that can fold up and unfold like paper.
    Threedee Shepherd: *screen
    Pila Mulligan: and then holographic projections :)
    Bertrum Quan: With that technology there are amazing RL possibilities..
    stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm, Ade was saying something about thaT EARLIER PILA
    Threedee Shepherd: perhaps holographic, possibly 3-dimensional via other technologies
    Pila Mulligan: some kind of projection into air though, probably
    Threedee Shepherd: (I also predict that one day there will be an input device that knows what I mean and will not have typos ;>
    Pila Mulligan: that will be nice
    stevenaia Michinaga: I'll be happy with a spellchecker
    stevenaia Michinaga: right Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: reet
    Bertrum Quan: You see AI integrated in these new systems
    Threedee Shepherd: I would bet that someone is developing a spellchecker for OpenSim right now
    Threedee Shepherd: What do you mean by AI, specifically, Bert?
    Bertrum Quan: Artificial Intelligence applications
    Threedee Shepherd: such as
    Bertrum Quan: You mentioned an application "that knows what you mean" which is more than a spell-checker!
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Threedee Shepherd: Actually, the start of that is the high-quality automatic language translation tools that Google is developing.
    Bertrum Quan: Does the Google translation software also involve TTS?
    stevenaia Michinaga: TTS?
    Threedee Shepherd: what is TTS?
    Bertrum Quan: Text to speech.
    Threedee Shepherd: not that I am aware of. However, I have read that brute force computing power is making TTS and STT much better than it ever was.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I do believe I have a Google App only phone that does Speech to search
    stevenaia Michinaga: to text
    stevenaia Michinaga: voice search
    Threedee Shepherd: Well friends, RL deadline for tomorrow calls, so I will be off. Interesting conversation. Goodnight :)
    Pila Mulligan: are you a Stanford sports fan Threedee?
    Threedee Shepherd: no
    Pila Mulligan: big game in women's basketball
    Threedee Shepherd: ahh
    Pila Mulligan: semifinal NCAA championship
    Pila Mulligan: have a nice evening, Threedee
    Bertrum Quan: 'Night 3-D
    stevenaia Michinaga: I once asked it for a bank branch open on saturday in a specific city in voice and got an accurate response
    Pila Mulligan: cool Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: night all
    stevenaia Michinaga: so it's close
    Pila Mulligan: have you seen reQall
    stevenaia Michinaga: let's hope all this interesting stuff is here sooner than later
    stevenaia Michinaga: no
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.reqall.com/about
    Pila Mulligan: it uses voice to make calendar entries
    Pila Mulligan: in text
    Bertrum Quan: we've come along way from soup cans connected by twine!
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: and bird quills
    stevenaia Michinaga: looks perfect for me
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks
    Pila Mulligan: yes, a veritable geezer life saver
    stevenaia Michinaga: exactly
    Pila Mulligan: call it in before you forget
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    Bertrum Quan: I need to sign off. This was an informative session. Thanks.
    Pila Mulligan: bye Bertrum, nice to see you
    Bertrum Quan: 'night Pila and Steve.
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Bertrum

    Pila Mulligan: Steve, do you have some ideas for Wednesday
    Pila Mulligan: how to elicit creative ideas from the chat session?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I cannot make it Wednesday, will be on my way to mother-in-laws for passover dinner
    Pila Mulligan: hope the weather lets you keep the door open :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I will be working the edges toward the cent, you have some more concrete aspects that also need to be flushed out
    stevenaia Michinaga: it will be interesting to see the initial interest
    stevenaia Michinaga: from the guardians
    stevenaia Michinaga: toward the center
    Pila Mulligan: I asked storm if he can have streaming music for that session
    Pila Mulligan: by Im, no reply yet
    stevenaia Michinaga: music? why?
    Pila Mulligan: from our music discussion the other night, about it helping creativity
    Pila Mulligan: what kind of questions or ideas would help get the edges defined, in the sense you used 'edges'
    stevenaia Michinaga: think a broad concept of what this place is will need to be discussed so a firm image of the plan will slowly materialize for the group
    Pila Mulligan: I agree
    Pila Mulligan: just wondering how to stimulate the breadth approach
    stevenaia Michinaga: even a listing of word/concepts need to be aggregated
    Pila Mulligan: nice idea
    stevenaia Michinaga: them an image will arise
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    stevenaia Michinaga: like what comes to mind..... list it , categorize it over weeks, etc
    stevenaia Michinaga: I can hep there
    Pila Mulligan: now a Hawaiian friend told me when I started working on this place three years ago, 'don't make too many plans, the land will show you what should be'
    Pila Mulligan: but that only works if you are here already :)
    Pila Mulligan: ops
    Pila Mulligan: 90 secs
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: architect's call this developing a master plan in which all will fit in to
    Pila Mulligan: I like the idea, and the fact that you are experienced with it
    Pila Mulligan: i have a lot of organizing experience, but not in this field
    stevenaia Michinaga: if you begin with a clear enough vision, all the details will fall into place...later
    Pila Mulligan: and so it is new to me
    Pila Mulligan: that is generally true, it seems
    Pila Mulligan: of many things
    stevenaia Michinaga: most processes don;t work out that way however, if you think of concentric circles, you start from the edge and the solution is in the middle and includes all the circles
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: there is this Kohler plumbing fixture commercial which is the antithesis of this process.. here's a faucet, the client says to an architect, design a house around this...
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: there are many ancient methods of developing aspects of this project, from Vedic methodology, fung Shui and a hose of other thematic methods as well
    stevenaia Michinaga: *host
    Pila Mulligan: one of the necessary skills of community organizing is to get people to slip out of action oriented thinking from time to time -- get them to just relate to images
    Pila Mulligan: once there is a consensus image, actions follow naturally
    stevenaia Michinaga: before that, words help, like light, comfort, other wants of the group, like what storm obviously sensed when he thought about this space, then the images develop
    stevenaia Michinaga: size shape orientation, hierarchy, if there is any
    stevenaia Michinaga: much of what we go here is word wiggle, so I think the group will find the words quicker than most to explain what they feel this place should be
    Pila Mulligan: so far there have been no responses from anyone interested in it as a residence, and it that persists then we will only be looking at transient lodging facilities
    Pila Mulligan: if*
    stevenaia Michinaga: the logistics and financial structure is another aspect of this too
    Pila Mulligan: yes, a big biggy
    Pila Mulligan: are you going to the August retreat?
    stevenaia Michinaga: but a well structured plan can also accommodate various scenarios
    Pila Mulligan: and sequences
    stevenaia Michinaga: no, it aligns within a few weeks of my 30 anniversary
    stevenaia Michinaga: within
    Pila Mulligan: ahh :)
    Pila Mulligan: there are some nice photos of the facility on their website
    stevenaia Michinaga: one must prioritize... grin
    Pila Mulligan: yes, and I agree with your priority there
    Pila Mulligan: I admire couples that stay married :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I am familiar with the Santa Cruz Area, it will be lovely place for you
    Pila Mulligan: I won;t be there either though
    Pila Mulligan: I'm a wus when it comes to travel
    stevenaia Michinaga: thought you were retried
    stevenaia Michinaga: haha
    Pila Mulligan: I am :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: well Corvi won;t either, we will have to do the strategic stuff online
    Pila Mulligan: I had vague intimations of an OpenSim retreat facility during the earlier conversation
    stevenaia Michinaga: maybe in ThreeDee's open Sim, sounds intriguing
    Pila Mulligan: you can't really do tai chi there, but it is interesting how close you can get to a group meditation while spread around the globe
    stevenaia Michinaga: there are some very good Tai Chi pose balls here
    Pila Mulligan: yes, they are fun
    Pila Mulligan: incidentally, Fefonz mentioned he is taking kung fu classes now
    stevenaia Michinaga: they do do it better than I do
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I did Karate when I was 9 to 11ish
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: kung fu is closer to tai chi than karate is
    stevenaia Michinaga: gave me the confidence to run the other way
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Pila Mulligan: avoid the fight
    stevenaia Michinaga: or to make it quick
    Pila Mulligan: Chinese saying: no fight no blame
    stevenaia Michinaga: or pain
    Pila Mulligan: this is how morality began
    Pila Mulligan: prehistoric humans began to realize how alternatives to fighting had long term benefits
    stevenaia Michinaga: you probably mean men
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: it was a very subtle realization, almost as profound as anything since
    stevenaia Michinaga: reason?
    Pila Mulligan: gave rise to the fundamental precepts of morality, in my opinion
    Pila Mulligan: reason for the subtlety?
    stevenaia Michinaga: sounds very Darwin-like, reason over fighting
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: that moment of perception that if I refrain from killing this fellow his family will be better neighbors
    Pila Mulligan: or if I don;t kidnap his daughters, same same
    Pila Mulligan: of steal his food
    stevenaia Michinaga: easier can be only short term
    Pila Mulligan: actually, people are still learning those lessons
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: well bed time for me, Corvi will be covering for me on Wednesday, perhaps you can continue your afternoon conversation
    Pila Mulligan: have a nice Seder dinner, Wednesday, Steve, I hope Elijah blesses your door :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: and drinks his wine
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Pila
    Pila Mulligan: aloha
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