2009.04.10 13:00 - A Concrete House of Cards

The Guardian for this meeting was Solobill Laville; comments are by his.

I arrived at the Playgoda and waited a few minutes until Pema arrived.

Pema Pera: Hi Solo!
Solobill Laville: Hello. Pema! :)
Pema Pera: what's on your mind these days?
Solobill Laville: How to do all of the things I need to do and still have a mind like water!!!
Solobill Laville: :)
Pema Pera: hahaha, I know the problem . . . .
Solobill Laville: How are you??
Pema Pera: such a nice way to put it!

Zen joins us.

Pema Pera: Hi Zen!
Pema Pera: Yes, as for me, I could say the same, Solo
Solobill Laville: Hello, Zen :)
Solobill Laville: I bet you could....
Pema Pera: But being in California helps my water from not freezing over :)
Solobill Laville: hehe, true
Pema Pera: I'll be here for another week
Pema Pera: always enjoy visiting the Bay Area
Solobill Laville: How is Berzerkely these days?
Pema Pera: oh, the People's Republic?
Pema Pera: This time I didn't even have to show my passport
Solobill Laville: Green Hills this time of year...I remember fondly
Pema Pera: :)
Solobill Laville: How are you Zen?
Zen Arado: pretty god
Zen Arado: and you?
Zen Arado: good :)
Pema Pera: I like the "pretty god"
Zen Arado: not God yet :)
Solobill Laville: Good, thanks...hehe
Pema Pera: as a reminder of what we all deep down already are :)
Solobill Laville: I just let that one go...
Zen Arado: true
Pema Pera: go, god, gone
Solobill Laville: hehe
Pema Pera: gone beyond
Zen Arado: gate gate
Solobill Laville: I was at a retreat this past weekend
Pema Pera: bodhi svaha
Zen Arado: ah good
Pema Pera: how was it?
Zen Arado: where?
Solobill Laville: in Ann Arbor, Mi
Solobill Laville: It was good, a LOT of sitting... :)
Pema Pera: who led it?
Zen Arado: who led?
Pema Pera: hehehe
Solobill Laville: Haju Sunim, of the Zen Buddhist Temple here
Solobill Laville: resident priest of 20 years or so

Fefonz joins us.

Pema Pera: Hi Fef!
Zen Arado: how long was it?
Fefonz Quan: Hi all :)
Solobill Laville: Anyway, my point is you can really feel your practice deepen with that focus
Zen Arado: Hi Fef
Solobill Laville: Thrus - Sunday
Solobill Laville: *Thursday
Solobill Laville: Heya, Fef :)
Zen Arado: I was supposed to go to one 2 weeks from now
Solobill Laville: "was supposed"...hmmmm ;)
Zen Arado: led bu Paul Haller from SFZC
Solobill Laville: Not going to then?
Zen Arado: no
Zen Arado: it is too exhausting for me
Solobill Laville: Oh, it is exhausting indeed
Zen Arado: venue is not very accessible and I am in a wheelchair
Solobill Laville: 17 hour days with 9 hours of sitting, plus manual labor on my last one
Solobill Laville: ah...ok :)
Zen Arado: I did 3 last tear
Solobill Laville: That is great!
Zen Arado: 2 5 -day and 1 3 day
Pema Pera: wonderful typos today!
Solobill Laville: hehe
Pema Pera: sitting till the last tear . . . .
Solobill Laville: oh, yes
Solobill Laville: :)
Solobill Laville: Is it at Tassajara?
Zen Arado: friends who help weren't going
Zen Arado: no in N.Ireland
Solobill Laville: Oh!
Zen Arado: Paul comes here 2 times a year
Solobill Laville: OK
Zen Arado: Tassajara is VERY inaccessible
Zen Arado: wouldnt even consider it
Zen Arado: Paul comes from N.Ireland
Solobill Laville: ah, I see
Zen Arado: feels it a duty to come here
Zen Arado: there are no permanent teaachers
Solobill Laville: NOt in Belfast even?
Zen Arado: might get to summer sesshin
Zen Arado: no
Zen Arado: there is NKT group has one
Zen Arado: but not sure about them
Zen Arado: prefer zen or tibetan
Solobill Laville nods
Solobill Laville: Have you been exploring the PaB exercises at all Zen?
Zen Arado: I try to stay aware all the time
Solobill Laville: Ah! Only that! lol
Zen Arado: in other words - no :)
Solobill Laville: A lofty goal :))
Zen Arado: maybe too lofty
Zen Arado: :)
Solobill Laville: Yes, well if so I was going to follow up with how you feel it integrates with your other practice
Solobill Laville: I dind it does quite well :)
Solobill Laville: Even towards meeting that lofty goal
Zen Arado: you ever go to Dokwang's meetings in SL?
Solobill Laville: Yes
Zen Arado: he advocates ABC = attention, breathing and corporal awareness
Pema Pera: a nice reminder!
Zen Arado: I try to practice that
Solobill Laville: :)
Solobill Laville: Basics are good!

Wester joins us.

Solobill Laville: Hello, Wester! :)
Wester Kiranov: hi all
Fefonz Quan: corporal - meaning corporate all we observe into our experience?
Zen Arado: I think I am coming back to breathing etc more and more often
Zen Arado: just means the body
Fefonz Quan: hey wester :)
Zen Arado: Hi Wester
Fefonz Quan: (ah, from corpus...)
Zen Arado: moments of irritation are good reminders
Solobill Laville: The breath is the bridge, organic stability
Wester Kiranov: hi - sorry i'm a bit late
Pema Pera: Hi Wester!
Zen Arado: corpulent :)
Solobill Laville: We might have to dock it from your paycheck this time, Wester... :)
Pema Pera: yes, to feel anger rising . . . .
Pema Pera: great reminder to stay mindful
Pema Pera: and bodyful :)
Zen Arado: or little hurt feelings
Zen Arado: self pity
Zen Arado: etc
Pema Pera: nono, solo, we will double Wester's paycheck, to increase her motivation!
Solobill Laville: Fear / anger are the big 1-2 punch perhaps
Pema Pera: from zero to zero :-)
Solobill Laville: hehe
Zen Arado: maybe should inclused happy feelings
Zen Arado: :)
Fefonz Quan: that can be done with fefonz's paycheck too ;-)
Solobill Laville: Yes, those can be tricky too, Zen...but they are so fleeting as to be a good reminder of impermanence ;)
Fefonz Quan agrees with solo about fear/anger
Solobill Laville: (sometimes they are 'so fleeting', think that sounded too pessimistic :))
Zen Arado: I am looking at the seven points of mind training
Zen Arado: at the moment
Fefonz Quan: could you say more about fear/anger Solo?
Solobill Laville: Sure
Solobill Laville: Here is an example
Solobill Laville: I was at an intensive retreat this past weekend
Solobill Laville: Which can really help to clear one's mind, obviously
Solobill Laville: I actually got a bit ill at one point and had to lay down
Solobill Laville: As I was lying there I was struck with a great fear
Solobill Laville: - similar to the base fear of death that we all feel at some point -
Solobill Laville: I hadn't felt it in a long time
Pema Pera: that's great, Solo!
Solobill Laville: I felt like leaving the retreat
Pema Pera: congratulations!
Zen Arado: like a panic attack ?
Solobill Laville: But explored it
Pema Pera: to be gripped like that is wonderful fuel
Solobill Laville: And felt it was my "ego" trying strangle hold me...in a way of speaking
Zen Arado: could be
Fefonz Quan met the strangling ego too :)
Solobill Laville: yes, Pema, and a great feeling of conquering it to defeat, even in a little way
Zen Arado: as long as you didn't try to repress it
Solobill Laville: Oh, no :)
Fefonz Quan: so what did you do solo?
Zen Arado: I think most ppl do
Pema Pera: yes, to let the ego die, Solo, very concretely!
Solobill Laville: I faced that little gremlin (ego attachments), as I have before
Solobill Laville: devilly little bugger
Zen Arado: it never gives up :)
Fefonz Quan: (and hope you didn't water that gremlin)
Solobill Laville: hehe, no!
Pema Pera: sorry, RL calling, have to leave now
Fefonz Quan: bye Pema
Solobill Laville: Bye, Pema
Pema Pera: sorry to leave this fascinating conversation!
Zen Arado: bye Pema
Wester Kiranov: bye pema
Pema Pera: Hope we can pick it up later again, Zen and all !
Pema Pera: bye for now
Solobill Laville: But, I think a point of all that is, the ego uses that base fear as a tool

Wol joins us.

Fefonz Quan: Heya Wol :)
Wol Euler: hello everyone
Zen Arado: Hi Wol
Wol Euler: sorry I'm late
Solobill Laville smiles at Wol
Wester Kiranov: hi wol
Solobill Laville: Hello, Wol!
Fefonz Quan: a tool for what Solo?
Fefonz Quan: for it's survival?
Solobill Laville: To survive, Fef
Solobill Laville: yes
Fefonz Quan: great minds think aloke :)
Zen Arado: agree
Zen Arado: it wants to stay in control
Fefonz Quan: and small fingers type aloke ;-)
Solobill Laville: It has built a concrete house of cards!
Wol Euler: a nice expressoin.
Zen Arado: yes
Wester Kiranov: it wants to think it's in control when it isn't
Solobill Laville nods
Wester Kiranov: yes, that's a nice expression
Zen Arado: trouble is that it is usualy

Tarmle joins us.

Solobill Laville: Hiya, Tarmel :)
Wol Euler: hello tarmel
Zen Arado: Hi Tarmel
Fefonz Quan: your concrete house brings me exactly to this morning session
Wester Kiranov: hi tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: morning folks
Solobill Laville: Good morning! Happy Saturday!
Fefonz Quan: when a concrete house tears down, it can be quite dangerous
Tarmel Udimo: yes it is and rather eraly
Fefonz Quan: and Happy Passover!
Tarmel Udimo: early
Wester Kiranov: good evening all
Tarmel Udimo: grins
Solobill Laville: (hehe - afternoon here)
Solobill Laville: We've got it all covered :)
Zen Arado: 9.30 pm for me
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Zen Arado: why is it dangerous FE?
Fefonz Quan: well those concrete stones can fall on your head.
Zen Arado: oh :)
Zen Arado: was going with the metaphor :)
Zen Arado: thinking ego can be protective in some way
Zen Arado: only protects us from waking up
Zen Arado: ?
Solobill Laville: Side effect, perhaps yes
Solobill Laville: but defininate self preservation
Fefonz Quan: well also it protects us from being hurt is a certain way
Solobill Laville: Go on Fef
Fefonz Quan: (as fear does also)
Zen Arado: like high self esteem ?
Fefonz Quan: don't really understand teh question zen?
Zen Arado: well if we have a high opinion about ourselves we wont take any notice of hurtful criticism?
Zen Arado: or not so much anyway ?
Fefonz Quan: that's a good example, though i would consider self esteem as high-level mechanism, thus harder to evaluate
Fefonz Quan: on a more basic way, we fear when we suspect something will hurt us
Fefonz Quan: if a car rushes towards you, you fear, and that's quite normal i would say
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: I am not clear about how no self fits with self eteem
Fefonz Quan: surely it does not fit :)
Zen Arado: have to look more at that
Solobill Laville: Is it really different than any other form of "attachment"?
Fefonz Quan: thich naht han says about it: "there are three kind of pride:
Solobill Laville: The trick may be to be aware of it...
Wester Kiranov: I think you can esteem your self without being (too) attached to it
Wester Kiranov: in principle :)
Fefonz Quan: thinking your are better than others, thinking other are better than you, and - thinking that you and other are exactly the same"
Solobill Laville: The third kind transcends this other stuff...so it really isn't an issue - if you can really maintain that
Fefonz Quan: others*
Zen Arado: yes - no-self is it really
Fefonz Quan: yes, i liked the third one most. that really makes you think :)
Solobill Laville: Well, yes, that is really IT
Zen Arado: not high or low
Fefonz Quan: my view was - when the need to compare oneself to others vanishes,
Fefonz Quan: then you are free.
Wester Kiranov: I think different and the same have several different meanings in this conversation
Fefonz Quan: fi you do compare, even if the result is an equation - you are still dealing with ego stuff
Wester Kiranov: still have to work out which ones
Solobill Laville: Yes, in fact it no longer makes any sense to think of the comparison :)
Wester Kiranov: i like that fef
Wol Euler nods
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: we are all different yet all the same
Fefonz Quan: i'm not :)
Wol Euler: heh, the true individualist
Zen Arado: not what ? :)
Solobill Laville: hehe
Wester Kiranov: :P
Fefonz Quan: different. (a quote from 'life of Brian")
Wol Euler: yep ;)
Wester Kiranov: great scene
Wol Euler: oddly appropriate to Easter/Pesach :)
Zen Arado: cant remember it :)
Zen Arado: always look at the bright side of life ?
Wester Kiranov: he opens the window in the morning and sees this crowd
Fefonz Quan: Brian wakes up in the morning, and there is a mob outside hawling for him
Wester Kiranov: and he tells them "you are all individuals"
Wester Kiranov: and they reply "yes, we're all individuals"
Zen Arado: :)
Wol Euler: in perfect unison!
Wester Kiranov: except one old lady who says "no, I'm not"
Zen Arado: :)
Solobill Laville: :)
Wol Euler: a great moment.
Fefonz Quan: So, if we transcend fear, will it stop defending us?
Zen Arado: there will be nothing to defend?
Solobill Laville: Constant work :) It defends our ego though...
Wol Euler: one might retain commonsense though? as in not standing in front of busses
Solobill Laville: not "us", very important distinction
Solobill Laville: Well, we can't love our parents and children if we let ourselves get whalloped by a bus now can we? :P
Wol Euler: exctly.
Fefonz Quan: ok, so we agreed on no bus collisions :)
Solobill Laville: My ego concurs...
Solobill Laville: (the little bugger)
Solobill Laville: :)
Zen Arado: :)
Wol Euler: awwww
Zen Arado: mine is pretty big :)
Wol Euler strokes Solo's ego's furry little ears
Zen Arado: big bugger :)
Solobill Laville: hehe
Zen Arado: chipping at it though
Zen Arado: or should it deflate suddenly :)
Fefonz Quan: "i see you bugger is bigger than mine"
Zen Arado: in a kensho moment?
Solobill Laville: Cultivation is the best
Zen Arado: ha ha
Fefonz Quan: your*
Solobill Laville: I heard a great analogy last year
Solobill Laville: It is like a mountain stream in winter ...
Zen Arado: I have the biggest ego here :)
Solobill Laville: the water underneath is always flowing
Solobill Laville: but you can't see it through the ice
Solobill Laville: practice slowly melts it away
Solobill Laville: and you can start to see the flow
Solobill Laville: more and more
Solobill Laville: clearer and clearer
Zen Arado: yes good Solo
Solobill Laville: then, just water :)
Fefonz Quan: so the ego was the ice? (fefonz a little slow today)
Wol Euler: take care that it doesn't work the other way though, that one deludes oneself that it is gone because ice and snow cover it over...
Solobill Laville: the encrustations of our ego / attachments / fears / clinging, yes
Solobill Laville considers Wol's comment
Fefonz Quan: yes, Wol, delusions like "it is all water, no icebergs here"
Tarmel Udimo: (bye all must be off to Pheono)
Solobill Laville: Bye, tarrmel
Fefonz Quan: we all know how that ends :)
Tarmel Udimo: Happy easter
Zen Arado: bye Tarmel
Fefonz Quan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saalGKY7ifU
Solobill Laville: You too
Wol Euler: bye tarmel, take care.happy easter to you too
Fefonz Quan: bye tarmel
Wester Kiranov: bye tarmel
Solobill Laville: I think, Wol, that the water is parallel to our "real nature", so we're not trying to make it gone, but see it
Solobill Laville: Did I read your comment right, or no?
Wol Euler: ah, so the ego is the ice not the stream?
Solobill Laville: yes!
Wol Euler: I wasn't sure what was being equated to what.
Fefonz Quan: (thats what i thought too)
Wol Euler: ok, now we have it.
Zen Arado: analogies break down when you push them too far
Solobill Laville: :P Bad analogy I guess!!
Fefonz Quan: hence my iceberg remarks...
Solobill Laville: Hmm, I think I blew it, that is on ancient one...
Zen Arado: I think it is a good analogy

Gen poofs in - then quickly poofs out...

Solobill Laville: Gen!
Wol Euler: hello gen
Zen Arado: Hi Gen
Wester Kiranov: hi gen. do you mean to be here or are you heading for pheno?
Wester Kiranov: i guess she was heading for pheno...
Wol Euler: :)
Fefonz Quan: yes, there should be a feature to ask you where you want to be befoer you rez
Wol Euler: oh but there is :)
Wol Euler: you can set SL to start in any of three places: your home, where you last were, or you can gype in the name of sim to be landed in
Solobill Laville: Friends, I must be off...
Fefonz Quan: name of sim is local enough?
Fefonz Quan: Bye Solo
Wester Kiranov: bye solo
Fefonz Quan: may you be the flowing water
Wol Euler: bye solo, happy easter.
Solobill Laville: Have a great weekend, whatever you Holiday or non-Holiday!
Zen Arado: bye Solo
Wol Euler: avoid the ice, except in your drinks
Solobill Laville flows like the water...
Wol Euler: every sim has a designated "entry point", which always exists but an be overridden by the local entry points of the parcel you tp into
Fefonz Quan: i can always count on wol to have more biting metaphors :)
Wol Euler: :)
Zen Arado: thanks for discussion
Zen Arado: bye
Fefonz Quan: i see. i would prefer the landmark list from my inventory :)
Wol Euler: bye zen, take care. happy easter.
Fefonz Quan: bye zen
Wol Euler: ah, that you can't do -- yet.
Fefonz Quan: i willl be on my way to, heading to RL NYC :)
Wol Euler: oh nice. Say hello to it from me :)
Wester Kiranov: bye fefonz
Fefonz Quan: i sure will Wol :)
Fefonz Quan: bye wester, wol
Wol Euler: bye for now, chag sameach pesach
Wol Euler: (two days late)
Fefonz Quan: and still most welcome! and it last 7 days
Wol Euler: ah :)
Wol Euler: I shall be off too, bed calls. Goodnight Wester, happy easter.
Wester Kiranov: goodnight, see you around
Wester Kiranov: namaste