2009.04.13 07:00 - Is Holy and Ordinary, Both

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

    Pema and I settled in for another discussion of "Being in Daily Life".

    Eliza Madrigal: Morning Pema :)
    Pema Pera: morning Eliza!
    Pema Pera: How's daily life for you?
    Pema Pera: (given that that' our theme for today :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Grand. You?
    Pema Pera: fine! Just got up, being now on California time, here in California
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, that's right! Quite early
    Eliza Madrigal: I've been out an about already...feels more like noon than ten.
    Eliza Madrigal: (here in Miami)
    Eliza Madrigal: And what I'm noticing today, in daily life, is that even amidst a thousand things dissolving...I feel quite happy
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: So natural to allow them to crumble down the cliff
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: yes, happiness apart from details is like hitting groundwater . . . always there
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...subtle..not working anything up
    Pema Pera: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: And I've been reading Tilopa...working with that as an outline as you suggested...going through steps in a way...writing.
    Eliza Madrigal: something to do with my hands while allowing Being to infuse...if that make sense :)
    Pema Pera: yes, it does
    Pema Pera: allowing Being to express
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, and feeling very thankful...grateful. I hadn't noticed until recently I think...how "inward" I had become. It is really nice to share and Be here.
    Pema Pera: yes, the continuity of our community is central, that we always can come back here -- it's never more than five hours away . . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Thanks for that
    Eliza Madrigal: It had become normal to expect most of my life to be "too abstract" for others to relate to
    Pema Pera: u 2 Eliza :)

    Play as Being's Mission 

    Pema Pera: PaB's mission, in some sense, is to make the abstract concrete
    Eliza Madrigal: : ) to unspiritualize?
    Pema Pera: to offer a handle on what sounds abstract but is actually the ground of our ground
    Pema Pera: to lift the distinction between spiritual and unspiritual
    Pema Pera: so either nothing is especially spiritual or everything is :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: I think that's where the breath comes in
    Eliza Madrigal: Pila was saying once that it sort of...(trying to remember his phrasing) is a physical activity for that reason
    Pema Pera: we all have the tendency to look for a key, for a secret, for a special place to find the solution . . . . but Being is staring us in the face, already, always
    Pema Pera: in everything thing we do, every person we meet
    Pema Pera: each moment . . . .
    Pema Pera: and our physical existence is part of it, each breath
    Pema Pera: each thought
    Pema Pera: is holy -- and is ordinary
    Pema Pera: both

    I appreciated here, Pema's thoughts on "abstract and not very useful". Indeed.

    Eliza Madrigal: And that is what becomes more and more comfortable until there is no distinction...but when "daily life" is contrast, it can be odd to learn to walk the rope, so to speak?
    Eliza Madrigal: I know there is no rope...
    Eliza Madrigal: but that is what communication feels like?
    Pema Pera: it is like walking a rope, that's how it feels, yes . . . .
    Pema Pera: but a funny rope . . . we fall off all the time
    Pema Pera: and the moment we *see* we have fallen off we are back on again :-)
    Pema Pera: unless we keep insisting to ourselves we have really fallen . . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: There is no choice really though...if off the rope, whether we are upset about it or not, once we've been there we'll be compelled to get back on...
    Eliza Madrigal: but maybe we go through shorter intervals?
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Pema Pera: and if somethings longer, fine too . . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . there is no way to get back on
    Pema Pera: since there is no way to fall off
    Pema Pera: but we think often that we have fallen off
    Eliza Madrigal: :) since there is no rope
    Pema Pera: and no us either :)
    Eliza Madrigal: nothing at all
    Pema Pera: yet we have to see that -- declaring it to be so would be abstract and not really useful
    Eliza Madrigal: Well..and there is that gap again, because that is where I've been starting...from "I love this nothing" but yes...it sounds ..hm..
    Eliza Madrigal: distant
    Eliza Madrigal: Not direct
    Eliza Madrigal: Which is more what the experience is. Direct
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: nothing . . . . or "openness"
    Pema Pera: room for everything
    Eliza Madrigal: This spontaneous idea...that the intervals get shorter.....
    Eliza Madrigal: seems very close to that non-duality...
    Eliza Madrigal: Immediacy
    Pema Pera: yes, it can show in many ways
    Pema Pera: You started out saying that you had been working with Tilopa's words
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Pema Pera: and writing
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Pema Pera: can you say a bit more about that?
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, in wrapping myself around expressing experience from experience first...
    Eliza Madrigal: the only way to do it is to get out of the way and allow myself to see what is said...
    Eliza Madrigal: And writing is a good point for this. The pen disappears with maybe the ego working....while
    Eliza Madrigal: I am able to bask in connection :).... and then that gap from abstract....I've been adressing by using Tilopa's six steps...
    Eliza Madrigal: Write "Don't recall" and see what comes up....
    Eliza Madrigal: if it goes down a tunnel...go with it....etc. :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Then when I feel a little more solid....move on. That's all. :)
    Pema Pera: that's exactly the approach, Eliza, to jump in and let it happen, and then see what happens
    Eliza Madrigal: or feel...not more solid exactly...but as though I've made a tiny step
    Pema Pera: and writing down is great, it helps bridge the new way of being/looking and the usual old way
    Pema Pera: lest we forget . . . .
    Pema Pera: it reinforces the change
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...not like going anywhere...but recalling
    Pema Pera: like writing down a dream after waking up, and then you'll remember it for the rest of the day
    Eliza Madrigal: allowing something to be seen from another "place"?
    Pema Pera: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah..yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Was talking with someone about "view" yesterday....
    Eliza Madrigal: and how "working with" that small glimpse, taste....allows it to spread....
    Eliza Madrigal: So it all works together :)
    Pema Pera: yes!!!
    Eliza Madrigal: (but I'm still startled to be doing it frankly)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: it is like an engine that runs on any fuel whatsoever
    Pema Pera: throw it all in the fire
    Pema Pera: anything that happens
    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    As an aside, I notice quite a few of us lately, beginning to express that "Startled" feeling. Which is another reason why this very practical approach can be such a present.

    Eliza Madrigal: So, with the topic, when you are speaking of hypothesis...the hypothesis is that you can start from Being?
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: hypothesis in the sense that you try it out, you work with it, to see where it leads you
    Pema Pera: if you have a burning question, and a hypothesis that seems to give you a good chance to solve the problem
    Pema Pera: well, then you really throw yourself into testing the hypothesis in trying it out
    Pema Pera: that is the approach of science
    Pema Pera: and I think of any practical, experienced form of spirituality as well
    Pema Pera: I've always been surprised at the way in which so many scientists are anti-spiritual
    Pema Pera: and so many spiritual types anti-science
    Pema Pera: since for me it feels so very similar
    Pema Pera: "working with a working hypothesis"
    Pema Pera: in a truly dedicated way
    Pema Pera: in wonder
    Pema Pera: letting reality show itself
    Pema Pera: more clearly
    Pema Pera: and having fun while working on that :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: It is the objectivity factor you wrote about...that we have "ideas" about what objectivity is
    Eliza Madrigal: ?
    Pema Pera: how so, Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: And a certain anger on the part of "questioning" types for being shut down so often also
    Eliza Madrigal: Well....
    Eliza Madrigal: We think that in order to do "a good experiment" we have to be objective...dispassionate
    Eliza Madrigal: Ans spirituality, if real, is passionate? And if people aren't comfortable with that...then there come all kinds of boxes
    Eliza Madrigal: "fit here" ...so seems an understandable antagonism from one angle...an accepted "objective" angle
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi genesis! :)
    Pema Pera: ah, yes, that is an added complexity, that science is mostly focused on objects, while neglecting the human subject -- and calling that objective
    Pema Pera: Hi Gen!
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Eliza and Pema!
    Pema Pera: scientists can be quite passionate in defending that they shouldn't let passions slip in :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: !! :)

    Genesis arrives and we enjoy a nice wave.

    Pema Pera: Gen, Eliza has told me about working with Tilopa's six words, and writing a lot about it in the process, as a tool of investigation
    Pema Pera: very glad to see that happen!
    Pema Pera: I often encourage writing, but I think very few people actually do that :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: I relate to Adams, and that's all I can say about that. hha
    Pema Pera: ah, yes, our most prolific writer !!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I enjoyed reading about the Ancestoral angle...thought it was an unexpected door
    Eliza Madrigal: and yet an obvious one once opened
    Pema Pera: yes, and yes
    Pema Pera: (maybe Gen is not in a writing mood :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: yes, I was glad Pila brought that up
    genesis Zhangsun: I am here
    genesis Zhangsun: listening
    Pema Pera: just kidding, Gen, sorry :)
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Pema Pera: watching us like an ancestor :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...it is a large part of why people "hold back" like you were talking yesterday...patterns that you don't see because they seem to have been in place before you were aware
    Eliza Madrigal: talking *about, I meant to say
    Pema Pera: yes, the challenge is not to add more tricks to our way of life, but to subtract the wrong tricks we've come to rely on
    Pema Pera: to backtrack
    Pema Pera: and letting ourselves be seen helps in uncovering that, uncovering our tracks :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes we let go before we notice...maybe always
    genesis Zhangsun: what do you mean Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: It just seems that by the time you let soemthing go...
    Eliza Madrigal: you've been working at it under the surface...softening a while?
    genesis Zhangsun: yes I would agree with that
    genesis Zhangsun: that is a nice point
    genesis Zhangsun: so do you think we actually are doing the letting go?
    Eliza Madrigal: : ) I love that question gen...am not sure really...seems more a collaboration
    Eliza Madrigal: You give space, space returned...
    Eliza Madrigal: ?
    genesis Zhangsun: or maybe everything is space
    Eliza Madrigal: yes....Being playing sensation of space? haha
    Eliza Madrigal: like an instrument
    genesis Zhangsun: that is a nice image Eliza :)
    genesis Zhangsun: or perhaps Being unfolding previously compressed space
    Eliza Madrigal: MMM
    Eliza Madrigal: unfolding...that's what music seems...a refinement of unfolding space....but maybe just playing with words. Hm
    Eliza Madrigal: Whatever it is, I'm smiling :)
    genesis Zhangsun: unfolding and every note heard or seen
    genesis Zhangsun: while before it sounded like static
    genesis Zhangsun: sure Eliza all metaphors
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...harmony from the chaos :)
    genesis Zhangsun: one as good as another :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: and we're dveloping capacity to hear it...and to express it
    genesis Zhangsun: or to realize we have always been hearing it
    Pema Pera: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Very nice...and being it
    genesis Zhangsun: dancing to the beat :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) "the rest is silence"
    Pema Pera: (^_^)
    genesis Zhangsun: silence is the source :)
    Eliza Madrigal: MM :) So happy today
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you
    Pema Pera: yes, we can tell, Eliza :-)
    Pema Pera: that's really nice
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    genesis Zhangsun: thanks Eliza
    Pema Pera: it seems that PaB as a whole is going through a wave of new energy
    Pema Pera: interesting, isn't it, how groups have moods like individuals have
    Eliza Madrigal: certainly
    Pema Pera: well, i'll have to slip out
    Pema Pera: to walk to downtown Berkeley
    genesis Zhangsun: bye Pema
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now Pema :) Enjoy!
    Pema Pera: to be in time at my coffeeshop to enter the Kira Reality Workshop in 45 minutes
    Pema Pera: and see you in a couple hours, Gen!
    genesis Zhangsun: see you soon Pema!
    Eliza Madrigal: I want to go also...not sure...we'll see :)
    Pema Pera: Eliza, Berkeley now has a concentration of PaB folks
    Pema Pera: Stim, Gen, me :-)
    Pema Pera: the three of us had brunch yesterday
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhh, very nice.
    genesis Zhangsun: yes that was very nice :)
    Pema Pera: and before that we saw Sky Szimmer, another oldtimer
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: I'll be stepping out too now
    genesis Zhangsun: see you later Eliza
    Pema Pera: bye for now, and thank you so much for sharing your discoveries, Eliza!
    genesis Zhangsun: bye Pema
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye genesis...so glad you dropped in for a while.
    genesis Zhangsun: me too :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) See you soon I'm sure

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